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Defense of frontiers

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
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Skiva
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 25
Founded: May 09, 2023
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Skiva » Sun Mar 31, 2024 6:03 am

I imagine R/D as the sandbox at recess. The natives are happily building a creation only for the playground bully to storm over and begin kicking at the castle. The bully laughs and loudly jeers which causes your older brother to step in. Having the disadvantage, as he has to actively restrain the kicks while (in present time, it appears) being scrawny in comparison. Your brother might not thwart the bully immediately, but eventually if the kicks stop he'll have won on your behalf. You'll be able to successfully rebuild, sandbox still yours.

The bully might initially take one kick, knocking out a side of the wall before leaving, in which case your brother will arrive to help you rebuild before going back to his friends. The bully might stay for a while, repeatedly kicking until the building, save for a few rooms, before enjoying the destruction enough to leave. Your brother might have failed to defend the castle mid-destruction, but now he can motivate his group of friends to intervene in the case that the bully returns. In the worst case scenario, the bully completely razes the castle to the ground, then kicks you out of the sandbox completely. Your brother will have failed, you will feel devastated, and your magnificent creation of effort is ruined. Yet other paths exist to reclaim the sandbox. Telling the teacher, Mrs. S. Council, is a part of life just as much as the ability to destroy creations.

Don't trust the bully lauding victory over you, claiming of all the ways you could've prevented the rampage. "Respect me, man!", they'll holler, "It's as simple as that!" Yet respecting the playground bully will draw the ire of all those who've felt the bullies wrath. Besides, the bullies word is only worth its weight in gold when presented without a scale. In a world with near infinite sandboxes, the bully will be more than happy to ignore yours. But the self-admitted nature of the bully remains the same: to destroy creations for the fun of it. In the event that their hand is forced, they will not hesitate to gleefully ruin your beautiful creation. Your brother might have failed to protect you, but offering your lunch money to the bully isn't a mutual deal-- it's a protection racket.

There is no way to fully guarantee safety for your sand castle. Bargaining with the bully will draw the ire of your brother, and relying on your brother will draw the ire of the bully. But ultimately, trusting those whose mission it is to protect is better than trusting those whose mission it is to destroy. Yet simultaneously, develop protections of your own. Do not be a helpless child-- take initiative to protect your sandbox.

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Pauline Bonaparte
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Posts: 162
Founded: Oct 21, 2014
Mother Knows Best State

Postby Pauline Bonaparte » Sun Mar 31, 2024 6:32 am

I came I saw I conquered wrote:Are there any interregional alliances for defense of frontiers or large regions that defend frontiers? Using an alt as to not give my region away.


There has been a lot of words spoken in this thread, and very few of them from actual frontier natives, which is too bad. Frontiers as a whole need to pay attention to NS gameplay more than they have been, as they are the regions which have become its main battleground since the introduction of the Frontier update a year ago.

True frontiers - not wastelands which provide little instruction or community for the newly spawned nations they birth - must unite in solidarity with each other. There is so much potential in these new frontiers which is locked away by leaders who do not pay attention to gameplay, and do not see the precarious position that their regions sit in by design. Rather than a front in the eternal war between raiders and defenders, frontiers could become a legitimate force themselves.

Intelligent players know this, of course, which is why every Pacific has a few people bemoaning the loss to their endorsement count since April '23. It is also why raiders and defenders alike seek to sort every new frontier into one of two camps. This latter point is, of course, nothing new - the death of Independent ideology is proof enough of that - but the difference is that frontiers, as the successful ones continue to grow, will only continue to become more valuable as sources of WA nations.

This is not to say that frontiers should abstain from engaging in R/D, or should refuse to seek out allies among the non-Frontiers - quite the contrary. Nor should my words be taken as a criticism of raiders and defenders for downplaying frontiers' unique identity. Their motivations are as influenced by their GP philosophy as mine.

As a frontier, your population will primarily be noobs. Raiding and defending can be fun, if you're on the winning side, and it introduces these noobs to the concepts that undergird GP. It also can promote ties with larger regions, which provide security assurances that are needed in any frontiers' early days.

But you should approach this as a frontier, acknowledging your unique identity and game mechanics. Frontiers should, at the same time as they engage in R/D, seek to uplift and support one another. Organizations like FOCUS have this as their goal. Full disclosure, of course: as Minister-President of Carcassonne, I helped found FOCUS to promote this ideology.

WA development programs, recruitment ideas: these are crucial to the growth and sustainability of any frontier, and frontier regions should help each other out by sharing their successes and failures. A few strong frontiers is better for everyone, as opposed to many small, puny frontiers that can be divided and conquered to feed the NS war machine.

Also essential is tackling the problem of wastelands - small, poorly-run frontiers stealing spawns that should go to better-run frontiers. A frontier should be prepared to stop these regions from getting spawns, by force if necessary - by promoting a WA program and R/D culture at home, creating an army prepared to dismantle wastelands.

See the arguments above? You shouldn't trust raiders because they'll turn on you, you shouldn't trust defenders because they are useless (but are also, apparently, competent enough to destroy you, as they did in Solidarity and threatened to do to Atlanticana); the fact is that they reveal the true motivations of some with regards to Frontiers: take our side, or else. They have their reasons for saying so, of course, but Frontierists recognize that solidarity and sustainability among Frontiers is the most ideal path.

If you create a frontier, and you put the time into it, it could become successful. I encourage you to reach out to the largest frontiers for advice and ideas, in my experience they're happy to help someone with energy and gumption.
Last edited by Pauline Bonaparte on Sun Mar 31, 2024 7:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pauline Bonaparte
Senator, Carcassonne
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I came I saw I conquered
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 15
Founded: Jul 16, 2023
Ex-Nation

Postby I came I saw I conquered » Sun Mar 31, 2024 8:59 am

Pauline Bonaparte wrote:
I came I saw I conquered wrote:Are there any interregional alliances for defense of frontiers or large regions that defend frontiers? Using an alt as to not give my region away.


There has been a lot of words spoken in this thread, and very few of them from actual frontier natives, which is too bad. Frontiers as a whole need to pay attention to NS gameplay more than they have been, as they are the regions which have become its main battleground since the introduction of the Frontier update a year ago.

True frontiers - not wastelands which provide little instruction or community for the newly spawned nations they birth - must unite in solidarity with each other. There is so much potential in these new frontiers which is locked away by leaders who do not pay attention to gameplay, and do not see the precarious position that their regions sit in by design. Rather than a front in the eternal war between raiders and defenders, frontiers could become a legitimate force themselves.

Intelligent players know this, of course, which is why every Pacific has a few people bemoaning the loss to their endorsement count since April '23. It is also why raiders and defenders alike seek to sort every new frontier into one of two camps. This latter point is, of course, nothing new - the death of Independent ideology is proof enough of that - but the difference is that frontiers, as the successful ones continue to grow, will only continue to become more valuable as sources of WA nations.

This is not to say that frontiers should abstain from engaging in R/D, or should refuse to seek out allies among the non-Frontiers - quite the contrary. Nor should my words be taken as a criticism of raiders and defenders for downplaying frontiers' unique identity. Their motivations are as influenced by their GP philosophy as mine.

As a frontier, your population will primarily be noobs. Raiding and defending can be fun, if you're on the winning side, and it introduces these noobs to the concepts that undergird GP. It also can promote ties with larger regions, which provide security assurances that are needed in any frontiers' early days.

But you should approach this as a frontier, acknowledging your unique identity and game mechanics. Frontiers should, at the same time as they engage in R/D, seek to uplift and support one another. Organizations like FOCUS have this as their goal. Full disclosure, of course: as Minister-President of Carcassonne, I helped found FOCUS to promote this ideology.

WA development programs, recruitment ideas: these are crucial to the growth and sustainability of any frontier, and frontier regions should help each other out by sharing their successes and failures. A few strong frontiers is better for everyone, as opposed to many small, puny frontiers that can be divided and conquered to feed the NS war machine.

Also essential is tackling the problem of wastelands - small, poorly-run frontiers stealing spawns that should go to better-run frontiers. A frontier should be prepared to stop these regions from getting spawns, by force if necessary - by promoting a WA program and R/D culture at home, creating an army prepared to dismantle wastelands.

See the arguments above? You shouldn't trust raiders because they'll turn on you, you shouldn't trust defenders because they are useless (but are also, apparently, competent enough to destroy you, as they did in Solidarity and threatened to do to Atlanticana); the fact is that they reveal the true motivations of some with regards to Frontiers: take our side, or else. They have their reasons for saying so, of course, but Frontierists recognize that solidarity and sustainability among Frontiers is the most ideal path.

If you create a frontier, and you put the time into it, it could become successful. I encourage you to reach out to the largest frontiers for advice and ideas, in my experience they're happy to help someone with energy and gumption.

Didn't think of that before but it makes a lot of sense. Raiding can be as a tool for controlling the amount of frontiers there are and making sure only the ones that actually try get to exist.
Last edited by I came I saw I conquered on Sun Mar 31, 2024 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ancientania
Minister
 
Posts: 3490
Founded: May 07, 2023
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Ancientania » Sun Mar 31, 2024 9:50 am

Pauline Bonaparte wrote:-snip-

As a delegate of a blossoming frontier,

I would like to start with it takes a playerbase that doesn't immediately create an account and CTE to first offstart a region to success, but indeed you need access to websites, namely discord.

I have trouble with this, as I can't get on my personal enough to get on discord or any other offsite chat. Therefore, it becomes exponentially harder to keep would-be nations engaged.

Carcasonne is what I want my region -The Obsidian Highlands- to become. But I can't get anyone, as it can't be myself, to help me with the most important part- communication. I would reach out, but first I have to have something of my own.

In fact, the main reason I went o the forums was to get my region out there. To let people's curiosity take over and let people see a new frontier- not for raiding, but to see a place for growth.

And it worked. To some extent, and I hope it continues to do so.

As for the R/D trustworthiness debate,

They both suck. I'm not a defender, but instead classify as 'Anti-raider' as in I condone the practice but don't do anything against it. Like a good politician.
Geography nerd, Political especially
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If you sue me I'll take your kneecaps. Threats count too.
Kneecaps stolen 24(x2)
NS stats have met my little buddy over here *Cocks gun*
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[What's this button do?]
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[What about this one?] [NOT THAT EITHER]
[Ooh shiny] [NO]
{BOOM}
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Cyptopir
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Posts: 1079
Founded: Oct 26, 2023
Democratic Socialists

Postby Cyptopir » Sun Mar 31, 2024 10:17 am

Ancientania wrote:Carcasonne is what I want my region -The Obsidian Highlands- to become. But I can't get anyone, as it can't be myself, to help me with the most important part- communication. I would reach out, but first I have to have something of my own.

It's kinda hard to be like Carcassonne if you defend fash..
Ancientania wrote:As for the R/D trustworthiness debate,

They both suck.

Generally not a smart thing for the delegate of a frontier to be saying.
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This nation does not represent my political views, kinda.

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You are you. Who you are is solely up to you, and no one else can tell you who you are.
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
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Here's a word of advice; try to avoid any regions on this list and any other regions associated with them.
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Ancientania
Minister
 
Posts: 3490
Founded: May 07, 2023
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Ancientania » Sun Mar 31, 2024 10:20 am

Cyptopir wrote:
Ancientania wrote:Carcasonne is what I want my region -The Obsidian Highlands- to become. But I can't get anyone, as it can't be myself, to help me with the most important part- communication. I would reach out, but first I have to have something of my own.

It's kinda hard to be like Carcassonne if you defend fash..
Ancientania wrote:As for the R/D trustworthiness debate,

They both suck.

Generally not a smart thing for the delegate of a frontier to be saying.

If you wanted to raid me you woulda done it already. It's been a month after all

Aside from that, I never 'defended fash'. I hate fash. I always have.

Now check your fricking tgs
Geography nerd, Political especially
10-20 years old, Gen Z
American Jew, He/him Male
Class: 0.86
If you sue me I'll take your kneecaps. Threats count too.
Kneecaps stolen 24(x2)
NS stats have met my little buddy over here *Cocks gun*
Militant... main sig is also IC. High welfare. TGs are for any purpose. Proud delegate of TOH.
[What's this button do?]
[NO DON'T TOUCH THAT]
[What about this one?] [NOT THAT EITHER]
[Ooh shiny] [NO]
{BOOM}
The Centennial Radio: I don't need you to worry for me 'cause I'm alright/I don't want you to tell me it's time to come home/I don't care what you say anymore this is my life/Go ahead with your own life leave me alone//That was My Life by Billy Joel. Now taking requests!

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Cyptopir
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Founded: Oct 26, 2023
Democratic Socialists

Postby Cyptopir » Sun Mar 31, 2024 10:37 am

Ancientania wrote:
Cyptopir wrote:It's kinda hard to be like Carcassonne if you defend fash..

Generally not a smart thing for the delegate of a frontier to be saying.

If you wanted to raid me you woulda done it already. It's been a month after all

Aside from that, I never 'defended fash'. I hate fash. I always have.

Now check your fricking tgs

You've gotta do more than put up a "NO FASCISTS ALLOWED" sign and swear that you're against fash to actually be anti-fascist. Especially after doing questionable things.
You can start by purging the problematic embassies and nations from your region.
Current flag made by Tungstan. Thank you! I HAVE AN OFFICIAL FLAG, SEE IT HERE!!!
Information:
The Cyptopedia (very WIP)
My Non-Canon Policies
PolComp Results
This nation does not represent my political views, kinda.

Opinions (objectively correct):
Fascism is bad. :)
You are you. Who you are is solely up to you, and no one else can tell you who you are.
How much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
As much wood as a woodchuck could chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood.
Here's a word of advice; try to avoid any regions on this list and any other regions associated with them.
Ugh. ತʍತ

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Ancientania
Minister
 
Posts: 3490
Founded: May 07, 2023
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Ancientania » Sun Mar 31, 2024 10:40 am

Cyptopir wrote:
Ancientania wrote:If you wanted to raid me you woulda done it already. It's been a month after all

Aside from that, I never 'defended fash'. I hate fash. I always have.

Now check your fricking tgs

You've gotta do more than put up a "NO FASCISTS ALLOWED" sign and swear that you're against fash to actually be anti-fascist. Especially after doing questionable things.
You can start by purging the problematic embassies and nations from your region.

Let's move this to tgs, I suppose

Though I'll purge Mitteleuropa, idk any nations

EDIT: OCBC
Last edited by Ancientania on Sun Mar 31, 2024 10:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
Geography nerd, Political especially
10-20 years old, Gen Z
American Jew, He/him Male
Class: 0.86
If you sue me I'll take your kneecaps. Threats count too.
Kneecaps stolen 24(x2)
NS stats have met my little buddy over here *Cocks gun*
Militant... main sig is also IC. High welfare. TGs are for any purpose. Proud delegate of TOH.
[What's this button do?]
[NO DON'T TOUCH THAT]
[What about this one?] [NOT THAT EITHER]
[Ooh shiny] [NO]
{BOOM}
The Centennial Radio: I don't need you to worry for me 'cause I'm alright/I don't want you to tell me it's time to come home/I don't care what you say anymore this is my life/Go ahead with your own life leave me alone//That was My Life by Billy Joel. Now taking requests!

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Reside
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 11
Founded: Jun 20, 2023
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Reside » Sun Mar 31, 2024 1:46 pm

Cyptopir wrote:Generally not a smart thing for the delegate of a frontier to be saying.

I suppose making your own ‘foreign policy’ known isn’t a terrible idea. In this specific situation, raiders and defenders are sorted into two distinct groups.

In reality, it’s not quite this simple. Some raider groups are more trustworthy than others, and some couldn’t keep their word if their regions depended upon it. The same goes for defenders. Some are reliable and do their best to follow defender principles, and others are completely unreliable and often use their positions as known defenders to accomplish their own selfish goals.

It depends on who you align with, I suppose. Making a general statement such as “raiders and defenders both suck” is relatively tame. If specific regions were mentioned, it’s a different story.
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Rosartemis
Diplomat
 
Posts: 545
Founded: Nov 06, 2023
Corporate Police State

Postby Rosartemis » Sun Mar 31, 2024 3:22 pm

Skiva wrote:I imagine R/D as the sandbox at recess. The natives are happily building a creation only for the playground bully to storm over and begin kicking at the castle. The bully laughs and loudly jeers which causes your older brother to step in. Having the disadvantage, as he has to actively restrain the kicks while (in present time, it appears) being scrawny in comparison. Your brother might not thwart the bully immediately, but eventually if the kicks stop he'll have won on your behalf. You'll be able to successfully rebuild, sandbox still yours.

The bully might initially take one kick, knocking out a side of the wall before leaving, in which case your brother will arrive to help you rebuild before going back to his friends. The bully might stay for a while, repeatedly kicking until the building, save for a few rooms, before enjoying the destruction enough to leave. Your brother might have failed to defend the castle mid-destruction, but now he can motivate his group of friends to intervene in the case that the bully returns. In the worst case scenario, the bully completely razes the castle to the ground, then kicks you out of the sandbox completely. Your brother will have failed, you will feel devastated, and your magnificent creation of effort is ruined. Yet other paths exist to reclaim the sandbox. Telling the teacher, Mrs. S. Council, is a part of life just as much as the ability to destroy creations.

Don't trust the bully lauding victory over you, claiming of all the ways you could've prevented the rampage. "Respect me, man!", they'll holler, "It's as simple as that!" Yet respecting the playground bully will draw the ire of all those who've felt the bullies wrath. Besides, the bullies word is only worth its weight in gold when presented without a scale. In a world with near infinite sandboxes, the bully will be more than happy to ignore yours. But the self-admitted nature of the bully remains the same: to destroy creations for the fun of it. In the event that their hand is forced, they will not hesitate to gleefully ruin your beautiful creation. Your brother might have failed to protect you, but offering your lunch money to the bully isn't a mutual deal-- it's a protection racket.

There is no way to fully guarantee safety for your sand castle. Bargaining with the bully will draw the ire of your brother, and relying on your brother will draw the ire of the bully. But ultimately, trusting those whose mission it is to protect is better than trusting those whose mission it is to destroy. Yet simultaneously, develop protections of your own. Do not be a helpless child-- take initiative to protect your sandbox.

What this fails to acknowledge is that modern Defenderism doesn't support this narrative entirely. While some aspects of the analogy are true - yes, we're not afraid to dismantle your sandcastles and evict you from the sandbox, after all, raiders are the villains - it presents Defenders in an overly favorable light. Even though parts of the statement critique how Defenders seem powerless to thwart us, it still portrays them as virtuous.

Your brother in the analogy wouldn't hesitate to become your bully, gleefully demolishing your sandcastle under the guise of protecting you. He'd scoff at the idea of simply negotiating with the bully to leave your sandbox in peace.

It's all just a facade, he doesn't genuinely protect you. Despite putting on a grand show of defiance, wagging his finger at the bully, when push comes to shove, he'd shrug and say, "Well, at least I tried."

Defending is nothing more than a hollow publicity stunt. Defenders will abandon your sandcastle just as readily as your brother would betray you, all because how dare you attempt to find a peaceful solution when he's utterly powerless to do so himself?
........A S T O R I A........
UNITIUM GLORIA
...OPHANIM AND SERAPH ...
... LADY GRANDMASTER ...
OF THE CELESTIAL ORDER
OF THE RADIANT CAVALRY
MY POSITIONS || RAIDER STATS || OOC STUFF || CITIZENSHIPS
Trans Rights are Human Rights! You are accepted, don't forget that <3

Also known as Ionaris / Rosacorp
STUFF I'VE DONE

DOWN WITH FASCISM ☮︎ FIGHT THE FAR RIGHT

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Mechanocracy
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Posts: 125
Founded: Jun 12, 2022
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Mechanocracy » Sun Mar 31, 2024 5:44 pm

He'd scoff at the idea of simply negotiating with the bully to leave your sandbox in peace.


Why on earth would you negotiate with regions that want your region burned because it’s funny?

The only things you can offer in that situation is your sovereignty, at which point, you now have zero leverage to prevent your region from being later purged, or to accelerate the process of your own region’s destruction so that raiders can move on to bother another region. Neither of these end positively.

If you genuinely believe that negotiating with the people who want your organization destroyed on their terms is a smart idea, feel free to transition Astoria to a frontier :p

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Magicia
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 49
Founded: Nov 07, 2023
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Magicia » Sun Mar 31, 2024 6:18 pm

Reside wrote:
Cyptopir wrote:Generally not a smart thing for the delegate of a frontier to be saying.

I suppose making your own ‘foreign policy’ known isn’t a terrible idea. In this specific situation, raiders and defenders are sorted into two distinct groups.

In reality, it’s not quite this simple. Some raider groups are more trustworthy than others, and some couldn’t keep their word if their regions depended upon it. The same goes for defenders. Some are reliable and do their best to follow defender principles, and others are completely unreliable and often use their positions as known defenders to accomplish their own selfish goals.

It depends on who you align with, I suppose. Making a general statement such as “raiders and defenders both suck” is relatively tame. If specific regions were mentioned, it’s a different story.

Could you cite an example of an untrustworthy raider region?

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Rosartemis
Diplomat
 
Posts: 545
Founded: Nov 06, 2023
Corporate Police State

Postby Rosartemis » Sun Mar 31, 2024 6:28 pm

Mechanocracy wrote:
He'd scoff at the idea of simply negotiating with the bully to leave your sandbox in peace.


Why on earth would you negotiate with regions that want your region burned because it’s funny?

The only things you can offer in that situation is your sovereignty, at which point, you now have zero leverage to prevent your region from being later purged, or to accelerate the process of your own region’s destruction so that raiders can move on to bother another region. Neither of these end positively.

If you genuinely believe that negotiating with the people who want your organization destroyed on their terms is a smart idea, feel free to transition Astoria to a frontier :p

If you can't rely on Defenders to actually defend your region, your safest bet is to strike a deal with Raiders. After all, there's no better protection than a simple written contract. Raiders possess honor, a quality Defenders lack. We uphold the terms of our treaties, we don't trample on the sovereignty of our allies - that's a Moralist's duty.

Of course, I'm sure Defenders scoff at the idea that Raiders have any regard for a mere piece of paper. However, it's a fact that Raiders honor their contracts. When we pledge allegiance in the name of the Overseer, we make a vow. And if you sign a treaty with us, we will adhere to its terms.

I couldn't care less about the average region.
I'd happily watch them all go up in flames.

But as Skiva said, in a world with near-infinite sandboxes, I'd gladly ignore yours, of course... For a price, respect.
........A S T O R I A........
UNITIUM GLORIA
...OPHANIM AND SERAPH ...
... LADY GRANDMASTER ...
OF THE CELESTIAL ORDER
OF THE RADIANT CAVALRY
MY POSITIONS || RAIDER STATS || OOC STUFF || CITIZENSHIPS
Trans Rights are Human Rights! You are accepted, don't forget that <3

Also known as Ionaris / Rosacorp
STUFF I'VE DONE

DOWN WITH FASCISM ☮︎ FIGHT THE FAR RIGHT

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New Fernia
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 19
Founded: Jun 23, 2022
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby New Fernia » Sun Mar 31, 2024 7:02 pm

Rosartemis wrote:
Skiva wrote:I imagine R/D as the sandbox at recess. The natives are happily building a creation only for the playground bully to storm over and begin kicking at the castle. The bully laughs and loudly jeers which causes your older brother to step in. Having the disadvantage, as he has to actively restrain the kicks while (in present time, it appears) being scrawny in comparison. Your brother might not thwart the bully immediately, but eventually if the kicks stop he'll have won on your behalf. You'll be able to successfully rebuild, sandbox still yours.

The bully might initially take one kick, knocking out a side of the wall before leaving, in which case your brother will arrive to help you rebuild before going back to his friends. The bully might stay for a while, repeatedly kicking until the building, save for a few rooms, before enjoying the destruction enough to leave. Your brother might have failed to defend the castle mid-destruction, but now he can motivate his group of friends to intervene in the case that the bully returns. In the worst case scenario, the bully completely razes the castle to the ground, then kicks you out of the sandbox completely. Your brother will have failed, you will feel devastated, and your magnificent creation of effort is ruined. Yet other paths exist to reclaim the sandbox. Telling the teacher, Mrs. S. Council, is a part of life just as much as the ability to destroy creations.

Don't trust the bully lauding victory over you, claiming of all the ways you could've prevented the rampage. "Respect me, man!", they'll holler, "It's as simple as that!" Yet respecting the playground bully will draw the ire of all those who've felt the bullies wrath. Besides, the bullies word is only worth its weight in gold when presented without a scale. In a world with near infinite sandboxes, the bully will be more than happy to ignore yours. But the self-admitted nature of the bully remains the same: to destroy creations for the fun of it. In the event that their hand is forced, they will not hesitate to gleefully ruin your beautiful creation. Your brother might have failed to protect you, but offering your lunch money to the bully isn't a mutual deal-- it's a protection racket.

There is no way to fully guarantee safety for your sand castle. Bargaining with the bully will draw the ire of your brother, and relying on your brother will draw the ire of the bully. But ultimately, trusting those whose mission it is to protect is better than trusting those whose mission it is to destroy. Yet simultaneously, develop protections of your own. Do not be a helpless child-- take initiative to protect your sandbox.

What this fails to acknowledge is that modern Defenderism doesn't support this narrative entirely. While some aspects of the analogy are true - yes, we're not afraid to dismantle your sandcastles and evict you from the sandbox, after all, raiders are the villains - it presents Defenders in an overly favorable light. Even though parts of the statement critique how Defenders seem powerless to thwart us, it still portrays them as virtuous.

Your brother in the analogy wouldn't hesitate to become your bully, gleefully demolishing your sandcastle under the guise of protecting you. He'd scoff at the idea of simply negotiating with the bully to leave your sandbox in peace.

It's all just a facade, he doesn't genuinely protect you. Despite putting on a grand show of defiance, wagging his finger at the bully, when push comes to shove, he'd shrug and say, "Well, at least I tried."

Defending is nothing more than a hollow publicity stunt. Defenders will abandon your sandcastle just as readily as your brother would betray you, all because how dare you attempt to find a peaceful solution when he's utterly powerless to do so himself?


Well, this post actually portrays defenders in an overly negative light! Defenders won't end a liberation because they just "get bored" or whatever, they end a liberation because they just can't win. And that's really the hard truth of the game, and of everything really: you can't win every battle. Some piles are just too large to overcome by virtue of the simple fact that liberating is harder than occupying. Raiders can move in pilers at any time of the day, but defenders only have a few seconds twice a day to move in nations (else they'd get banned!). At some point, we have to draw the line between what is attainable and what is simply a dream. After all, if we spent all our time sieging regions that have obviously been taken by raiders, we wouldn't be able to liberate other regions- for example, instead of sieging today at minor, we went and libbed a region!

And, to OP: just because your region may be raided and taken doesn't mean the entire community is done for. If you have something off-site (which you should), like a Discord server, then that is really where your community is- the region is just an anchor for the community. If your region is taken, coordinate a move to a new region with those who are active in your community! Those are the people who really matter, anyways- the person who spends lots of time participating in activities and being active in the government is 100x more valuable than Skibidilandia who spawned in your region, answered issues, and hasn't logged in for 12 days. The active members will take their nations, move to the new region, and endorse the delegate. Then... everything will continue as normal. Sure, it might be weird being in a new region, and maybe you're attached to the name of your original region, but things change. We just have to play the cards we're dealt.

And if you're still really worried about losing your original region, maybe the name means tons to you, then all the advice I can give you is recruit and try to max out your magnetism. After all, more nations = more endos and the more endos you have, the less likely raiders are to raid you. But, large-scale occupations are rare and most frontiers will probably never be the victim of a massive raider occupation. (You should still recruit though!)
Last edited by New Fernia on Sun Mar 31, 2024 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Angeloid Astraea
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Angeloid Astraea » Sun Mar 31, 2024 7:35 pm

If you sign a treaty with a raider region, then defenders become the sandcastle kickers. =P
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Rosartemis
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Corporate Police State

Postby Rosartemis » Sun Mar 31, 2024 7:39 pm

New Fernia wrote:Well, this post actually portrays defenders in an overly negative light! Defenders won't end a liberation because they just "get bored" or whatever, they end a liberation because they just can't win.

I don't see that to be entirely the case. Skiva's analogy still portrays Defenders as a notably virtuous force, but that couldn't be further from the truth. The modern Defender is a selfish, self-serving entity driven by the pursuit of victory for its own sake, not for the noble goal of liberation, but rather to stake their flags in crumbling cities abandoned by raiders in pursuit of new fields to light aflame.
New Fernia wrote:And that's really the hard truth of the game, and of everything really: you can't win every battle. Some piles are just too large to overcome by virtue of the simple fact that liberating is harder than occupying.

Defending has become nothing more than a publicity stunt, designed to convince naive natives that Defenders are doing more than just engaging in empty posturing. But if all they do is brandish their fists at Raiders without taking any tangible action, are they truly fighting on the side of the native?
New Fernia wrote:Raiders can move in pilers at any time of the day, but defenders only have a few seconds twice a day to move in nations (else they'd get banned!). At some point, we have to draw the line between what is attainable and what is simply a dream>

By that logic, why not continue fighting regardless? Even if the prospects seem bleak, it provides new recruits with the opportunity to learn the ropes, even if it ultimately leads to no outcome. There's still potential to unearth talent among these fresh faces. Yet, Defender Command seems content to exhaust them all.

They could be providing the chance for a new person to lead an update every day, teaching them triggering, balancing a force, and commanding an army. But alas, they refuse to do so.

Do Defenders fear competency that much?
New Fernia wrote:After all, if we spent all our time sieging regions that have obviously been taken by raiders, we wouldn't be able to liberate other regions- for example, instead of sieging today at minor, we went and libbed a region!

Let's not pretend that doing two jumps in a single update is an insurmountable feat. We've chased and tagged enough to know better :p. Utopeus and ROTWW are only 20 minutes apart from each other. If Defenderdom takes pride in being unable to manage jumps at both, then it's no wonder they're still losing.
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One for the Gipper
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Postby One for the Gipper » Mon Apr 01, 2024 3:55 pm

I seriously love reading RAIDERS lecturing Fenda's on how to do their jobs.

ALMOST ... AS MUCH as reading RAIDERS talk about "Honor".

I will not talk about "honor", I will only say that Defending is by far a more difficult prospect than Raiding is. Raiders have elected to take the EASIER role in this game. Not criticizing, just an objective observation that is backed up by facts.

I will also say that, without Defenders in this game - then Raiders would be nothing but region griefing bullies - and that is how they would be viewed by the vast majority of NS.

Defenders are the "Yang" to the Raiders "Yin".

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Rosartemis
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Corporate Police State

Postby Rosartemis » Mon Apr 01, 2024 4:08 pm

One for the Gipper wrote:I seriously love reading RAIDERS lecturing Fenda's on how to do their jobs.

ALMOST ... AS MUCH as reading RAIDERS talk about "Honor".

I will not talk about "honor", I will only say that Defending is by far a more difficult prospect than Raiding is. Raiders have elected to take the EASIER role in this game. Not criticizing, just an objective observation that is backed up by facts.

I will also say that, without Defenders in this game - then Raiders would be nothing but region griefing bullies - and that is how they would be viewed by the vast majority of NS.

Defenders are the "Yang" to the Raiders "Yin".

If even your own ideological enemies are criticizing your incompetence, then clearly, you're doing something wrong :p.

The sorry state of defending today is such that raiders exhibit more basic decency by actually following through with their promises, unlike defenders who backtrack on their commitments or outright ignore the pleas of natives for protection.

OOCly: no one denies that defending is mechanically more challenging than raiding,
ICly: that's no excuse to perpetuate the propagandizing narrative defender leaders like to shove down the throats of their lackeys and attack dogs. Raiders don't lie to their own; defenders do.

What is a defender without a raider? Nothing.
What is a raider without a defender? Successful.

This view of moralism is woefully outdated, yet it's no surprise that some still cling to it, effectively throwing defenders under the bus by ignoring the self-destructive path they're on.

I pity Defenderdom.
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Reventus Koth
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Reventus Koth » Mon Apr 01, 2024 4:51 pm

Hey old man Gipper, are you willing to saddle up and put your WA where your mouth is? Unless you're on the front lines with the defenders you're gassing up, you are actually less than useless to them. Your rhetoric isn't useful or helpful to them, it's only good for a glimpse into the long gone past.
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Xanthal wrote:Only raiders can win in this war- a defender can keep them from winning one region, one update at a time, but there will always be the next region, the next update, and the next, forever.

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Witchcraft and Sorcery
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Postby Witchcraft and Sorcery » Mon Apr 01, 2024 6:18 pm

Rosartemis wrote:
One for the Gipper wrote:I seriously love reading RAIDERS lecturing Fenda's on how to do their jobs.

ALMOST ... AS MUCH as reading RAIDERS talk about "Honor".

I will not talk about "honor", I will only say that Defending is by far a more difficult prospect than Raiding is. Raiders have elected to take the EASIER role in this game. Not criticizing, just an objective observation that is backed up by facts.

I will also say that, without Defenders in this game - then Raiders would be nothing but region griefing bullies - and that is how they would be viewed by the vast majority of NS.

Defenders are the "Yang" to the Raiders "Yin".

If even your own ideological enemies are criticizing your incompetence, then clearly, you're doing something wrong :p.

The sorry state of defending today is such that raiders exhibit more basic decency by actually following through with their promises, unlike defenders who backtrack on their commitments or outright ignore the pleas of natives for protection.

OOCly: no one denies that defending is mechanically more challenging than raiding,
ICly: that's no excuse to perpetuate the propagandizing narrative defender leaders like to shove down the throats of their lackeys and attack dogs. Raiders don't lie to their own; defenders do.

What is a defender without a raider? Nothing.
What is a raider without a defender? Successful.

This view of moralism is woefully outdated, yet it's no surprise that some still cling to it, effectively throwing defenders under the bus by ignoring the self-destructive path they're on.

I pity Defenderdom.

This is unironically the least inspiring or insightful agendapost I have seen in a very long time, and that is truly an accomplishment


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Wascoitan
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Wascoitan » Mon Apr 01, 2024 6:26 pm

Witchcraft and Sorcery wrote:
Rosartemis wrote:If even your own ideological enemies are criticizing your incompetence, then clearly, you're doing something wrong :p.

The sorry state of defending today is such that raiders exhibit more basic decency by actually following through with their promises, unlike defenders who backtrack on their commitments or outright ignore the pleas of natives for protection.

OOCly: no one denies that defending is mechanically more challenging than raiding,
ICly: that's no excuse to perpetuate the propagandizing narrative defender leaders like to shove down the throats of their lackeys and attack dogs. Raiders don't lie to their own; defenders do.

What is a defender without a raider? Nothing.
What is a raider without a defender? Successful.

This view of moralism is woefully outdated, yet it's no surprise that some still cling to it, effectively throwing defenders under the bus by ignoring the self-destructive path they're on.

I pity Defenderdom.

This is unironically the least inspiring or insightful agendapost I have seen in a very long time, and that is truly an accomplishment

have you considered looking here: search.php?author_id=391613&sr=posts
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Rosartemis
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Corporate Police State

Postby Rosartemis » Mon Apr 01, 2024 6:38 pm

Witchcraft and Sorcery wrote:
Rosartemis wrote:If even your own ideological enemies are criticizing your incompetence, then clearly, you're doing something wrong :p.

The sorry state of defending today is such that raiders exhibit more basic decency by actually following through with their promises, unlike defenders who backtrack on their commitments or outright ignore the pleas of natives for protection.

OOCly: no one denies that defending is mechanically more challenging than raiding,
ICly: that's no excuse to perpetuate the propagandizing narrative defender leaders like to shove down the throats of their lackeys and attack dogs. Raiders don't lie to their own; defenders do.

What is a defender without a raider? Nothing.
What is a raider without a defender? Successful.

This view of moralism is woefully outdated, yet it's no surprise that some still cling to it, effectively throwing defenders under the bus by ignoring the self-destructive path they're on.

I pity Defenderdom.

This is unironically the least inspiring or insightful agendapost I have seen in a very long time, and that is truly an accomplishment

I don't want to take credit away from your agendaposts, but I will say I was inspired by it. Nothing beats the original :)
........A S T O R I A........
UNITIUM GLORIA
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... LADY GRANDMASTER ...
OF THE CELESTIAL ORDER
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Wolfana
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Wolfana » Mon Apr 01, 2024 7:13 pm

Firstly ill apologize for the delay in responding.
A Bloodred Moon wrote:I’m glad this has already been toned down to “for the most part”.

Toned down to "for the most part" for a reason. The TGW model of "We will raid the raiders" is pretty common with big 'fenda these days. Then there's shoveling the cesspits, but that's everyone's duty though. Point is, Defenders need a good reason to raid, other than for the lols. When a region actively begins supplying pilers to raids, Its pretty justifiable to raid them at that point in time, at least in my point of view.
I can’t speak for Sparkalia and BoM, obviously, but while a treaty with one does not translate to a treaty with other raider orgs, LWU at least will strongly reconsider raiding a region that has a treaty with a fellow raider region out of respect.

Not LWU's actions, however a short six months ago that described situation did happen, With LWU's treaty being completely disregarded by Sparkalia. Like I said, You need a treaty with every member to truly be left alone.

Witchcraft and Sorcery wrote:-snip-

Uh, "Raiders bad, fendas good I suppose. -ω-" how's that?
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Angeloid Astraea
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Founded: Feb 20, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Angeloid Astraea » Mon Apr 01, 2024 9:09 pm

Wolfana wrote:Point is, Defenders need a good reason to raid, other than for the lols. When a region actively begins supplying pilers to raids, Its pretty justifiable to raid them at that point in time, at least in my point of view.

This isn't always how it works in practice. Defenders that do counter-raids do it with the purpose of making raiders feel as though they've been griefed. A sort of "taste of your own medicine". But because defenders don't think like griefers, there's this mistaken concept that any time raiders are upset, it's a sign that a raider region was successfully targeted and/or the raider cause was damaged in some way.

The destruction of Solidarity is a great example of this, as was the planned destruction of Atlanticana. Solidarity was the frontier of The Leftist Assembly. Atlanticana didn't even have a military, trying to stay neutral for survival's sake. The former is often paraded around as the ultimate "counter-raid" because PRAF deployed in Solidarity at some point during its history, and TCB/PRAF are allied to Malice. Meanwhile Atlanticana was about to be invaded by defenders for having cross-membership with The Communist Bloc, and for signing a treaty with The Red Fleet, which recently revived itself with one of its aims being targeting certain defenders who participated in the invasion of Solidarity. Neither the destruction of Solidarity nor the planned destruction of Atlanticana were times where defenders had good reasons to raid, as they really had to stretch to justify things, and neither frontier actively supplied pilers to raids. It seemed more like certain popular defenders/defender-aligned indies were settling scores with indies that they dislike, and using the boogeyman evil raider to do it.

But in the aftermath of those operations, there's a lot of leftists that are upset, because Solidarity was a very leftist Frontier, and Atlanticana is a very leftist Frontier. Some of those leftists that are upset are also raiders that just happen to be leftists. So what happens there is that raiders that are also leftists see the destruction of these leftist communities, are outwardly upset, and defenders take the saltiness as a sign of an effective strike against raiding.

I think this disconnect is also part of what leads to accusations of the defenders that raided these places being closet conservatives, reactionaries, Republican-esque, etc. Quebecshire is the face of aggressive defending and at worst he's a liberal, but people have assumed worse of him since the raid of Solidarity and his misinterpretation of leftist outrage as raider outrage, and it continually shows.

Wolfana wrote:Not LWU's actions, however a short six months ago that described situation did happen, With LWU's treaty being completely disregarded by Sparkalia. Like I said, You need a treaty with every member to truly be left alone.

Situations like those are rare, though, in part because when we do step on each other's toes, we tend to learn from it. =]
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I came I saw I conquered
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Ex-Nation

Postby I came I saw I conquered » Mon Apr 01, 2024 9:13 pm

I've started a war lol

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