[SPLIT] Commentary on CCD, regional sovereignty, 10KI etc.

[Jakker]

There's no humiliation, just deep, deep anger. You don't think we're used to your antics by now? As I said, we haven't got the resources to compete with you when it comes to raiding. And yet, you're all investing your time in a raid that achieves nothing practical against a region you profess to hate and want nothing to do with.

If you don't feel like you have the resources to compete, maybe check in with TSP and see if you can join some kind of alliance with them and XKI. Seems like they have similar views to you about regional sovereignty so likely there is common ground to defeat these wicked acts.

[Kuriko]

There's no humiliation, just deep, deep anger. You don't think we're used to your antics by now? As I said, we haven't got the resources to compete with you when it comes to raiding. And yet, you're all investing your time in a raid that achieves nothing practical against a region you profess to hate and want nothing to do with.

If you don't feel like you have the resources to compete, maybe check in with TSP and see if you can join some kind of alliance with them and XKI. Seems like they have similar views to you about regional sovereignty so likely there is common ground to defeat these wicked acts.

I do not find this amusing, Jakker. Do not insult us or TSP by laying us in the same bed as CCD, when we're nothing alike and have zero common ground with fascists and Nazis.

[Frenchy II]

You're right, my list had a typo. The Grey Wardens were also there (obviously)

I was an Officer in the Operations Server, I think I know what I'm talking about. Do we really need everyone to parade through here and confirm for you so as to humiliate CCD further?

There's no humiliation, just deep, deep anger. You don't think we're used to your antics by now? As I said, we haven't got the resources to compete with you when it comes to raiding. And yet, you're all investing your time in a raid that achieves nothing practical against a region you profess to hate and want nothing to do with.

idk it was kind of funny

[HumanSanity]

There's no humiliation, just deep, deep anger. You don't think we're used to your antics by now? As I said, we haven't got the resources to compete with you when it comes to raiding. And yet, you're all investing your time in a raid that achieves nothing practical against a region you profess to hate and want nothing to do with.

If you don't feel like you have the resources to compete, maybe check in with TSP and see if you can join some kind of alliance with them and XKI. Seems like they have similar views to you about regional sovereignty so likely there is common ground to defeat these wicked acts.

Of all the quick sniping and motive assumption generated in the past week by you about defenders *gasp* politically organizing (the horror!), this one is especially a stretch and particularly low.

This really does demonstrate that nothing is sacred to you in coming up with ways to discredit those who oppose your organization's goals. The Partnership for Sovereignty has no tolerance for fascism, as indicated in the organization's charter, and there is no love lost between XKI (or TSP, who participated in the raid!) and CCD. In your quest to stick the PfS, and its member regions, with any verbal harpoon you can find, you quoted a message from Joco that isn't even about sovereignty, pretended it was about sovereignty, and then implied XKI and TSP would be a-okay with working him.

We do not work with fascists, we do not defend fascists, and we want nothing to do with CCD. Shame on you for implying otherwise to score points. You're making it quite clear which regions and organizations rely on misleading propaganda about the motives and goals of their enemies to promote their own agenda, and I hope people keep in mind the extreme reaches you're clearly willing to go through next time you slide a "defender bad" talking point into one of your attack posts.

[Jakker]

If you don't feel like you have the resources to compete, maybe check in with TSP and see if you can join some kind of alliance with them and XKI. Seems like they have similar views to you about regional sovereignty so likely there is common ground to defeat these wicked acts.

I do not find this amusing, Jakker. Do not insult us or TSP by laying us in the same bed as CCD, when we're nothing alike and have zero common ground with fascists and Nazis.

As far as I see, nothing I said was incorrect. Jocospor noted CCD does not have the resources to combat the raiding. Joco noted this was an attack on CCD's regional sovereignty. CCD's statement regarding TNP a few days ago specifically said how quroum raiding is an attack on regional sovereignty (https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1496687). They said, "These quorum raids should be condemned by the NationStates community." And TSP has explicitly condemned and doubled down on condemning the qurum raids which I'm sure XKI feels the same. And you and I both know how much XKI and TSP have talked about prioritizing regional sovereignty. So much so that quroum raiding a proposal that would only give CCD attention was opposed. Therefore, there does seem to be some common ground and I was simply suggesting to Joco that it might sense to check in with folks who actively worked (even if unintentionally/not directly) to make it more likely for their Repeal Liberation to get to vote by preventing an effort to stop that and who share common values about regional sovereignty. If I was him, this is the most logical thing to do based on all of these aspected I just layed out.

[HumanSanity]

As far as I see, nothing I said was incorrect. Jocospor noted CCD does not have the resources to combat the raiding.

The quote you were citing was about the Delegate bumping of CCD itself. Not quorum raiding. You clearly didn't get to run your talking point enough in the previous several days so decided it might be politically expedient to run it again about a completely different subject, implying CCD might get support from TSP and XKI regarding an attack on CCD itself. This is what makes your comment particularly offensive and demonstrates the special lengths you're willing to go through to demonize us.

CCD's statement regarding TNP a few days ago specifically said how quroum raiding is attack on regional sovereignty (https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1496687). They said, "These quorum raids should be condemned by the NationStates community." And TSP has explicitly condemned and doubled down on condemning the qurum raids which I'm sure XKI feels the same. And you and I both know how much XKI and TSP have talked about prioritizing regional sovereignty. So much so that quroum raiding a proposal that would only give CCD attention was opposed.

We do feel similarly, I released a statement on the subject as Delegate. We care about the sovereignty of non-fascists, as is made pretty clear in our statement and there is no love lost between us and fascists.

If I was him, this is the most logical thing to do based on all of these aspected I just layed out.

Two things:
1) You aren't issuing benign advice in a public thread throwing the names of two of your strongest opponents next to fascists. That's a political hit piece you're sliding in.

2) I'll give XKI's answer here: "no". And based on the way the charter is written and our past interactions with CCD, that should be abundantly clear already.

[Jakker]

As far as I see, nothing I said was incorrect. Jocospor noted CCD does not have the resources to combat the raiding.

The quote you were citing was about the Delegate bumping of CCD itself. Not quorum raiding. You clearly didn't get to run your talking point enough in the previous several days so decided it might be politically expedient to run it again about a completely different subject, implying CCD might get support from TSP and XKI regarding an attack on CCD itself. This is what makes your comment particularly offensive and demonstrates the special lengths you're willing to go through to demonize us.

CCD's statement regarding TNP a few days ago specifically said how quroum raiding is attack on regional sovereignty (https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1496687). They said, "These quorum raids should be condemned by the NationStates community." And TSP has explicitly condemned and doubled down on condemning the qurum raids which I'm sure XKI feels the same. And you and I both know how much XKI and TSP have talked about prioritizing regional sovereignty. So much so that quroum raiding a proposal that would only give CCD attention was opposed.

We do feel similarly, I released a statement on the subject as Delegate. We care about the sovereignty of non-fascists, as is made pretty clear in our statement and there is no love lost between us and fascists.

If I was him, this is the most logical thing to do based on all of these aspected I just layed out.

Two things:
1) You aren't issuing benign advice in a public thread throwing the names of two of your strongest opponents next to fascists. That's a political hit piece you're sliding in.

2) I'll give XKI's answer here: "no". And based on the way the charter is written and our past interactions with CCD, that should be abundantly clear already.

Joco said that the delegate bumping of CCD was an attack on their regional sovereignty, so this event does have relevance to what I said and to them saying they do not have the resources to combat it. Neither XKI's or TSP's statement about what TNP did made it explicitly clear that you both are against CCD or the possibility of working with them. So again based on what has been said on all sides, if I was Joco, a logical step would be to pursue something there. I appreciate XKI making it more clear where they stand regarding the various dynamics at play currently with CCD.

[Frattastan IV]

There's no humiliation, just deep, deep anger. You don't think we're used to your antics by now? As I said, we haven't got the resources to compete with you when it comes to raiding. And yet, you're all investing your time in a raid that achieves nothing practical against a region you profess to hate and want nothing to do with.

If you don't feel like you have the resources to compete, maybe check in with TSP and see if you can join some kind of alliance with them and XKI.

Imagine if a defender had been so stupid to suggest that TBH should form an alliance with any of the neo-Nazi regions that used to raid because "you have similar views about regional sovereignty".

Seems like they have similar views to you about regional sovereignty so likely there is common ground to defeat these wicked acts.

"Briefly ignoring the lack of common ground on just about every other topic".

Seems there's a significant amount of discussion off-topic here. I'd like to politely suggest that the XKIers take their discussion on their willingness or lack thereof to work with the CCD elsewhere.

Grow up.

[Vincent Drake]

There's no humiliation, just deep, deep anger. You don't think we're used to your antics by now? As I said, we haven't got the resources to compete with you when it comes to raiding. And yet, you're all investing your time in a raid that achieves nothing practical against a region you profess to hate and want nothing to do with.

If you don't feel like you have the resources to compete, maybe check in with TSP and see if you can join some kind of alliance with them and XKI. Seems like they have similar views to you about regional sovereignty so likely there is common ground to defeat these wicked acts.

An absolutely disgusting take from someone who prides himself on being the "classy" one.

[Sedgistan]

I've removed these posts into a separate thread as they've developed into a threadjack that's not directly related to TNP. Arguably this could be merged into either the CCD or 10KI threads, but as I'm not sure what direction it's going to go in, I'm leaving it as a separate thread. I'm keeping this unlocked, as I don't want it to appear as "mods shut down criticism of a controversial statement by another mod" (though I'll note Jakker is posting as a player, not a mod). This staying unlocked is reliant on people behaving though.

Carry on.

[Alfonzo]

This is very unessecary. Kinda disappointed in Jakker for turning this into his own personal beef with XKI

[Benevolent Thomas]

Jakker, your rhetoric is becoming as dangerous as it is insincere. You are a leading figure in gameplay. You are also a moderator. Your words matter. Please dial back this latest line of attack, as it's easily one of the most toxic things I've seen in this forum. I know for a fact that you are better than this.

[Varanius]

This is abhorrent, full stop. I don’t agree with XKI and TSP on everything. I disagree with them on a lot of things, actually. But Jesus Christ Jakker. It is plain disgusting to try and compare those you disagree with ICly to actual, literal fascists. Especially considering TSP participated in the CCD delegacy bump. Comparing those you IC dislike to OOC undesirable individuals was shitty when MG did it, and it’s shitty now.

[Jakker]

If you don't feel like you have the resources to compete, maybe check in with TSP and see if you can join some kind of alliance with them and XKI.

Imagine if a defender had been so stupid to suggest that TBH should form an alliance with any of the neo-Nazi regions that used to raid because "you have similar views about regional sovereignty".

That is not an adequate comparison at all. TBH does not raid with anyone just because they also like to raid. Nor does TBH just raid anything just because they are a potential target. In this particular situation, some defenders chose to prioritize defending above what those actions were actually doing. Even if the regions being defended were not connected to CCD, by trying to stop the quorum raiding of the Repeal Liberate CCD proposal, the defenders involved themselves in making it more likely for the proposal to get to vote and then doubled down on that prioritization. A proposal that was written by Joco, to articulate CCD as they saw fit, for the purpose of removing a Liberation they didn't like, and to ultimately give them attention. The reality is that it creates a situation in which defending in that situation was prioritized over actions done to prevent the proposal from going to vote. And for those involved, you are welcomed to do that. That is up to you.

However, you are making a stand against quroum raiding at all costs and for "regional sovereignty." And now CCD has latched onto those talking points themselves. They are making statements against those things as well and against the actions taken. So in this particular circumstance, it puts CCD and defenders like TSP, XKI, etc on the same side of this conflict. I get that is icky, but that is just the reality of the situation and I was noting that.

I remember many years ago when defenders would defend all regions including those connected to fascism. That is no longer the case as far as I know now. And as far as I can tell, at least some defenders are not about defending quorum raids for proposals they are not cool with. So maybe there will be a time at some point in the future when more defenders shift towards that as well. Until that point though, these type of sticky situations will likely come up again.

I hear the frustration in what I said and I acknowledge that. I could have made my point in a way that articulates all of those dynamics more clearly. I apologize for not handling that better.

[Quebecshire]

If you don't feel like you have the resources to compete, maybe check in with TSP and see if you can join some kind of alliance with them and XKI. Seems like they have similar views to you about regional sovereignty so likely there is common ground to defeat these wicked acts.

This is easily one of, if not the worst take I have read on the forums in a good while.

Edit: Botched the quote code, so I fixed it.
Edit 2: Changed it to include the full thing Jakker said, and the last edit was to add this edit note.

[Frattastan IV]

Imagine if a defender had been so stupid to suggest that TBH should form an alliance with any of the neo-Nazi regions that used to raid because "you have similar views about regional sovereignty".

That is not an adequate comparison at all.

As far as I can see, nothing I said was incorrect. I encourage you to have a second look at my post and give it adequate reflection and appreciation.

[Jakker]

Seems like they have similar views to you about regional sovereignty so likely there is common ground to defeat these wicked acts.

This is easily one of, if not the worst take I have read on the forums in a good while.

Edit: Botched the quote code, so I fixed it.

That is fair. I messed up in how I approached the conversation and that is my fault. I tried to lay out what I was trying to say in my previous point, but obviously points are not good if they are delivered poorly and ultimately the points are not great. I apologize for what I said and how I said it. Totally my bad, all.

[Karputsk]

What a garbage non-apology.

To suggest that any Defender region , organisation or multi-lateral pact's stance on quorum raiding is akin to working directly with a Nazi/Fascist region is so completely disingenuous that it needs calling out. As a moderator you should know better.

We don't want an explanation, that your logic is clowny is plain for all to see and no change in tone is going to hide that fact.

[Jakker]

What a garbage non-apology.

To suggest that any Defender region , organisation or multi-lateral pact's stance on quorum raiding is akin to working directly with a Nazi/Fascist region is so completely disingenuous that it needs calling out. As a moderator you should know better.

We don't want an explanation, that your logic is clowny is plain for all to see and no change in tone is going to hide that fact.

You are right that I should know better and clearly I mishandled things. I know it is hard to believe this, but I do genuinely feel bad for this and I did not think through the impact of my actions. I am apologetic and I know those are just words, so I get the skepticism. I will also be doing some extensive reflection as well to consider how best to take ownership of things as well.

[Frenchy II]

Imagine if a defender had been so stupid to suggest that TBH should form an alliance with any of the neo-Nazi regions that used to raid because "you have similar views about regional sovereignty".

That is not an adequate comparison at all. TBH does not raid with anyone just because they also like to raid. Nor does TBH just raid anything just because they are a potential target. In this particular situation, some defenders chose to prioritize defending above what those actions were actually doing. Even if the regions being defended were not connected to CCD, by trying to stop the quorum raiding of the Repeal Liberate CCD proposal, the defenders involved themselves in making it more likely for the proposal to get to vote...

[Benevolent Thomas]

I'm going to continue in my honesty with you, Jakker. That apology is insufficient. You apologize for the way your rhetoric has been received, but in the same post you continue to rationalize the irrational and you continue to defend the indefensible. You knew exactly what you were doing when you said what you said. You're one of the most careful posters in our community. You also know the weight of your words and its why you've been named a forum moderator. I expect nothing but "oh look who is trying to politicize things now" in response to this, but I need to tell you how I feel. What you did and what you're attempting to continue doing is wrong. To speak of the defender cause in the same breath as the fascist movement can only be done from a place of bad faith. The movements are opposing. To equate the desire of defenders to defend neutral regions and the desire of fascist regions to defend fascist regions is irresponsible and you know that. To shamelessly bring up that some defenders defended all regions, which sometimes lead to a fascist region being defended, after even acknowledging that such incidents have been largely relegated to decades past, is an abhorrent way to continue to link defending and fascism together.

Rebuke the way you have conducted yourself. Speak out against attempts by others who callously link their political opponents to those who have been properly pariah-ed by our community. You are one of the most respected voices in our ever-growing community and we need you to be a champion of decency. Using your wealth of influence to falsely assert that defenders conduct themselves in ways that would be perceived by the community at large as being toxic is becoming a troubling pattern of behavior from you. Please stop.

[Jakker]

I do appreciate the feedback by everyone. I am going to take some time away to reevaluate things and work to be better. Edit: I also want to say again I do sincerely apologize for my actions here and the harm I have caused.

[Kanaia]

Imagine if a defender had been so stupid to suggest that TBH should form an alliance with any of the neo-Nazi regions that used to raid because "you have similar views about regional sovereignty".

That is not an adequate comparison at all. TBH does not raid with anyone just because they also like to raid. Nor does TBH just raid anything just because they are a potential target. In this particular situation, some defenders chose to prioritize defending above what those actions were actually doing. Even if the regions being defended were not connected to CCD, by trying to stop the quorum raiding of the Repeal Liberate CCD proposal, the defenders involved themselves in making it more likely for the proposal to get to vote and then doubled down on that prioritization. A proposal that was written by Joco, to articulate CCD as they saw fit, for the purpose of removing a Liberation they didn't like, and to ultimately give them attention. The reality is that it creates a situation in which defending in that situation was prioritized over actions done to prevent the proposal from going to vote. And for those involved, you are welcomed to do that. That is up to you.

However, you are making a stand against quroum raiding at all costs and for "regional sovereignty." And now CCD has latched onto those talking points themselves. They are making statements against those things as well and against the actions taken. So in this particular circumstance, it puts CCD and defenders like TSP, XKI, etc on the same side of this conflict. I get that is icky, but that is just the reality of the situation and I was noting that.

I remember many years ago when defenders would defend all regions including those connected to fascism. That is no longer the case as far as I know now. And as far as I can tell, at least some defenders are not about defending quorum raids for proposals they are not cool with. So maybe there will be a time at some point in the future when more defenders shift towards that as well. Until that point though, these type of sticky situations will likely come up again.

I hear the frustration in what I said and I acknowledge that. I could have made my point in a way that articulates all of those dynamics more clearly. I apologize for not handling that better.

I've been combating Nazis and fascists on NS before you joined the game. Been fighting them even before raiders found religion and decided fascists and Nazis were enemies, rather than frequent allies. I find the assertion that XKI should or would join forces with Nazis, fascists, or even roleplay fascists to be as rancorous as it is deceitful. XKI has always stood against fascism in every form. XKI never defends Nazi or fascist regions now, or in the past.

The problem is not with the way you made your assertion, it's that you made the assertion at all. We get it, you don't like XKI. However, this is utterly baseless. You are attempting to associate XKI with something it is and has always been completely antithetical to.

Fox News used similar tactics in the lead up to the Iraq War to associate 9/11 with Iraq, by having reports on 9/11 immediately followed by reports on Iraq. Even though the two reports were not related, this created an association between the two in viewers minds.

I will also note that your apology is not for making the assertion, but for the way you said it. So it seems you're merely sorry for your poor logic and getting called out, but still ok with correlating XKI with Nazis and fascists.

I find this toxic and deceitful behavior to reprehensible from any player, but especially so from a forum moderator.

[Flanderlion]

I do appreciate the feedback by everyone. I am going to take some time away to reevaluate things and work to be better. Edit: I also want to say again I do sincerely apologize for my actions here and the harm I have caused.

Just post with another account that isn't Jakker when posting for fun. Should use mod accounts only for moderation - you're not unique with that issue tbf. Most mods aren't really involved though so there isn't much of a conflict. That said, I think you're entitled to post dumb viewpoints like the rest of us, the only issue over normal stuff is that you're posting it on a moderator account which naturally is held to a higher standard. All that said, the people that don't like you IC and/or OOC would call you out either way.

[Sandaoguo]

As far as I see, nothing I said was incorrect. Jocospor noted CCD does not have the resources to combat the raiding. Joco noted this was an attack on CCD's regional sovereignty. CCD's statement regarding TNP a few days ago specifically said how quroum raiding is an attack on regional sovereignty (https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1496687). They said, "These quorum raids should be condemned by the NationStates community." And TSP has explicitly condemned and doubled down on condemning the qurum raids which I'm sure XKI feels the same. And you and I both know how much XKI and TSP have talked about prioritizing regional sovereignty. So much so that quroum raiding a proposal that would only give CCD attention was opposed. Therefore, there does seem to be some common ground and I was simply suggesting to Joco that it might sense to check in with folks who actively worked (even if unintentionally/not directly) to make it more likely for their Repeal Liberation to get to vote by preventing an effort to stop that and who share common values about regional sovereignty. If I was him, this is the most logical thing to do based on all of these aspected I just layed out.

For all the jokes that were made these last couple days about TSP learning how to read, the level of either ignorance, misunderstanding, or just plain bad faith misrepresentation here are off the charts. TSP has never aligned itself with CCD, nor have we ever argued or even intimated that TNP's quorum raiding was a violation of CCD's sovereignty. Let's just made that clear, apology or no.