Card Farming Morality?

[Sandugachai]

I have started to enjoy liking the Playing Cards section of the game and want to start getting more cards. A popular way to get cards is to create puppet accounts to farm cards, but I'm a bit worried. What are the ethics of card farming? Is it generally frowned upon for monopolizing cards, or is it ok because it creates new cards, which help expand the market? I know that people do this, but I remember seeing a condemnation in the Security Council on a nation that had a monopoly on many cards.

[Zeritae]

I have started to enjoy liking the Playing Cards section of the game and want to start getting more cards. A popular way to get cards is to create puppet accounts to farm cards, but I'm a bit worried. What are the ethics of card farming? Is it generally frowned upon for monopolizing cards, or is it ok because it creates new cards, which help expand the market? I know that people do this, but I remember seeing a condemnation in the Security Council on a nation that had a monopoly on many cards.

I right now am playing with many of my puppets to do keepaway

[Kathol Rift]

I have started to enjoy liking the Playing Cards section of the game and want to start getting more cards. A popular way to get cards is to create puppet accounts to farm cards, but I'm a bit worried. What are the ethics of card farming? Is it generally frowned upon for monopolizing cards, or is it ok because it creates new cards, which help expand the market? I know that people do this, but I remember seeing a condemnation in the Security Council on a nation that had a monopoly on many cards.

Like any farm, I believe that it is unethical. Farming, specifically chickens and cows in farms, is inhumane and cruel, and I see no reason why card farms should be treated any differently. All farms should be shut down, and cards should be released to run free in the wild, without the horrors of the card/meat industry to harm them. On a side note, we should all go vegan.

Aside from my bad joke, I don’t actually see a problem with card farming. It’s just another way to get cards, and it’s not like it’s something that only some people can do. Anyone can make puppets to farm cards, so it’s equally available to anyone who wants to do it. Therefore, I see no ethical problems with card farming.

[Horde]

What are the ethics of card farming? Is it generally frowned upon for monopolizing cards, or is it ok because it creates new cards, which help expand the market? I know that people do this, but I remember seeing a condemnation in the Security Council on a nation that had a monopoly on many cards.

You're fine. Farm away. Loads of folks farm cards on puppets. And you won't "monopolize" cards, as they're just continually generated, so you're not stopping others from getting their own cards.

[Outer Sparta]

Creating puppets to farm cards is perfectly fine. Players like Koem Kab do it all the time and it requires a lot of work on multiple accounts.

[Destructive Government Economic System]

There is nothing wrong in creating additional nations/puppet accounts for the purpose of generating more cards, and it is actually a widespread practice many traders use to get ahead.

As for "monopolizing" cards, I do not believe that it is truly possible to achieve this, seeing that more and more copies will continuously be generated (even if the card itself is that of a ceased-to-exist nation). And even if this was possible, it's a free market, so you, the player, have full capabilities on how you may trade/immerse yourselves with cards.

[Zeritae]

There is nothing wrong in creating additional nations/puppet accounts for the purpose of generating more cards, and it is actually a widespread practice many traders use to get ahead.

As for "monopolizing" cards, I do not believe that it is truly possible to achieve this, seeing that more and more copies will continuously be generated (even if the card itself is that of a ceased-to-exist nation). And even if this was possible, it's a free market, so you, the player, have full capabilities on how you may trade/immerse yourselves with cards.

Yes. I have many puppets myself, such as Nyorklandia, Ameriquae, all the Zpuppets, Northeast Xeritae, and some others

[Ender VI]

Here's a collection of close to 50 different card farms, still only a small percentage of those out there. You'd be hard pressed to find a top trader without one of some description.
https://www.nationstates.net/page=deck/collection=21694

[All Wild Things]

*Gasp!*

Card farming is immoral.

Billions of citizens throughout the NS-verse are subjected to randomly selected policies, all for the purpose of expanding the art collections of the elite.

That national leaders give no consideration whatsoever to national policy is a disgrace. One day cars are legal, next day they're not. Economies rise and collapse at the whims... No. You can't even describe this negligence as a "whim". The way ordinary citizens are treated in NS is appalling. And card farms are to blame.

[Warzone Codger]

*Gasp!*

Card farming is immoral.

Billions of citizens throughout the NS-verse are subjected to randomly selected policies, all for the purpose of expanding the art collections of the elite.

That national leaders give no consideration whatsoever to national policy is a disgrace. One day cars are legal, next day they're not. Economies rise and collapse at the whims... No. You can't even describe this negligence as a "whim". The way ordinary citizens are treated in NS is appalling. And card farms are to blame.

Finally someone who dares speak the truth.

[Australian rePublic]

I put a lot of effort into card farming. If you don't wanna do it, that's your problem, not mine

[9003]

*Gasp!*

Card farming is immoral.

Billions of citizens throughout the NS-verse are subjected to randomly selected policies, all for the purpose of expanding the art collections of the elite.

That national leaders give no consideration whatsoever to national policy is a disgrace. One day cars are legal, next day they're not. Economies rise and collapse at the whims... No. You can't even describe this negligence as a "whim". The way ordinary citizens are treated in NS is appalling. And card farms are to blame.

I got a good chuckle out of this thank you!

Ironiclly my puppet nation's have better off citizens, all be it with laws changing all the time. But personally card farming brings a lot of cards to the market that otherwise wouldn't see the light of day.

[Queen Yuno]

Card Farming guide to get started https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1146418

[Coffin-Breathe]

"Card farming" is ruining the game and has ruined it already; but since the "big farmers" the more or less dictate the market and the prices, it´s almost the only way to relatively quick amass some bank (if you don´t get very lucky on your draw and not being very, very patient).
Fact is, that farming doesn´t create more cards, because farmers usually junk them for their bank, if the drawn cards are not very special or pretty valuable (see the comments on card space above). It only creates more bank, but not more cards on the market.
I say, it´s legal and widely (ab)used, but not ethical in the end, because greed and megalomania are never ethical.

[9006]

"Card farming" is ruining the game and has ruined it already; but since the "big farmers" the more or less dictate the market and the prices, it´s almost the only way to relatively quick amass some bank (if you don´t get very lucky on your draw and not being very, very patient).
Fact is, that farming doesn´t create more cards, because farmers usually junk them for their bank, if the drawn cards are not very special or pretty valuable (see the comments on card space above). It only creates more bank, but not more cards on the market.
I say, it´s legal and widely (ab)used, but not ethical in the end, because greed and megalomania are never ethical.

The only way cards come in to the world is someone opens a pack we would have far less cards with out farmers. Even when we (the farmers) junk cards that creates bank that circulates in the world. If you remove farmers from the game the market becomes a significantly quiter place and far more boring. If you put a bid on a card above junk vaule any farmer worth their weight in salt who has a brain would sell rather then junk alone on the grounds of it's more money for them.

As for the legendy market ya farmers pay alot for the cards but this also allows that lucky draw to be lucky. Take farmers out and now testlandia is only worth 10 bank cuz no one can save up bank with out farmering.

You don't even have to be a big farmer to make a lot of bank 10 puppets can turn up on average 100 bank a month just look at the card olpmyics I hosted.

Oops posting from a puppet it's 9003

[Inven]

"Card farming" is ruining the game and has ruined it already; but since the "big farmers" the more or less dictate the market and the prices, it´s almost the only way to relatively quick amass some bank (if you don´t get very lucky on your draw and not being very, very patient).
Fact is, that farming doesn´t create more cards, because farmers usually junk them for their bank, if the drawn cards are not very special or pretty valuable (see the comments on card space above). It only creates more bank, but not more cards on the market.
I say, it´s legal and widely (ab)used, but not ethical in the end, because greed and megalomania are never ethical.

Again, someone hate farmers because they are rich.

[MineLegotia and Equestria]

We have gone so far during the quarantine. Now we're debating over the morality of farming cards on a text-based political satire game.

Really, it's okay, but card farming has been nerfed because in order to gift you cards you need 0.05, which really pisses me off and throws my card farm into disarray. I actually have to pay for something! Unbelievable!

[Recuecn]

"Card farming" is ruining the game and has ruined it already; but since the "big farmers" the more or less dictate the market and the prices, it´s almost the only way to relatively quick amass some bank (if you don´t get very lucky on your draw and not being very, very patient).
Fact is, that farming doesn´t create more cards, because farmers usually junk them for their bank, if the drawn cards are not very special or pretty valuable (see the comments on card space above). It only creates more bank, but not more cards on the market.
I say, it´s legal and widely (ab)used, but not ethical in the end, because greed and megalomania are never ethical.

I think "megalomania" is going a touch too far, but I'm curious to know more about what ethical card-playing (I won't say farming) looks like in your opinion. Let's say that only nations in the WA would ever get packs when they opened issues. Does that resolve the whole thing? Or if greed is the root of the problem as you say, does changing the mechanics to make farming impossible fail to address the core issue? On the other hand, what about big farmers who are entirely selfless? The Northern Light, for example, runs a massive farming operation but as a non-profit: legendaries are gifted away to fund regional programs, and anybody who asks can have any epic card they want. Is this also a problem?

In other words, is it the practice itself that bothers you, and so you call farmers greedy just because you're upset, or is it actually the greed that's the problem and farming merely enables it?

Your concerns about inflation (producing bank but no cards) are actually probably valid, but it's hard to imagine the card market any other way at this point since inflation has become so rampant. Do you think 9003's right that Testlandia would only be worth $10? How much of an exaggeration do you think that is? He phrased that as a negative but probably many players would prefer that. What other changes do you think we would see in the market?

I'm just interested in your opinion because saying 'card farming is bad' on the forum dedicated to trading cards seems counter-cultural in a way and probably most conversation stemming from that is just us talking past each other.

[Coffin-Breathe]

Again, someone hate farmers because they are rich.

First, I don´t "hate farmers, because they are rich"; I just don´t like the practice of "farming", because I think, that farming and amassing bank this way is against the spirit of the game and ruins "the market" and the prices.
And second, I don´t "hate farmers, because they are rich"; but I don´t like "exploitation", and "farming (the big way, as some do)" is simply exploitating the rules of the game (as it´s meant, imo), mostly (imo) out of greed or megalomania.

The question of this thread is not about legality, it´s about ethics; and thus the answer can´t be "it´s not against the rules", or "everyone does it", and also not "I put a lot of time and/or effort in farming", because this doesn´t even touch the original question.
Is it ethical to kill people, because "I put a lot of time in the planning" ? Is it ethical to detonate an atomic bomb, because "I can do it", or "because "there are no rules against it" (fortunately for us all, there are some, somehow, in RL) ? Is it ethical/morally correct to pollute the world and environment, because "this helps the production of more goods (which I can sell to make me even more rich)" ?

I say, the way you handle the "card game" somehow represents also your viewing of life and the way you tend to handle it; things like morality and ethical thinking are not the last a personal decision, which everyone has to make for his/her own.
As an atheist I shouldn´t play the religious card here, but there´s a reason why greed counts as one of the seven deadly sins (for the christians), and so does gluttony. Although those are perfectly legal and a base of the capitalistic system.

Happy Easter days everyone.

[Coffin-Breathe]

I think "megalomania" is going a touch too far, but I'm curious to know more about what ethical card-playing (I won't say farming) looks like in your opinion. Let's say that only nations in the WA would ever get packs when they opened issues. Does that resolve the whole thing? Or if greed is the root of the problem as you say, does changing the mechanics to make farming impossible fail to address the core issue? On the other hand, what about big farmers who are entirely selfless? The Northern Light, for example, runs a massive farming operation but as a non-profit: legendaries are gifted away to fund regional programs, and anybody who asks can have any epic card they want. Is this also a problem?

In other words, is it the practice itself that bothers you, and so you call farmers greedy just because you're upset, or is it actually the greed that's the problem and farming merely enables it?

Your concerns about inflation (producing bank but no cards) are actually probably valid, but it's hard to imagine the card market any other way at this point since inflation has become so rampant. Do you think 9003's right that Testlandia would only be worth $10? How much of an exaggeration do you think that is? He phrased that as a negative but probably many players would prefer that. What other changes do you think we would see in the market?

I'm just interested in your opinion because saying 'card farming is bad' on the forum dedicated to trading cards seems counter-cultural in a way and probably most conversation stemming from that is just us talking past each other.

I have mentioned a long time before (in some other threads), that imo the "one player, one card getting nation" solution would be one of the (if not the only one) possible way(s) out of the "farming and inflation dilemma". The inflation of "farms" might be seen as a somehow positive result (more nations, more clicks, more content, more activity) by the game administration, might be intended or not, but I say, over time it ruins the whole game, because the "§card-subgame" has become so important to many players.
Another way would be to cancel the "card game" by the end of season two, but this would (imo) be seen as rude and been protested by many players which somehow enjoy this sub-game.
About the "selfless" farmers (no offense meant) like TNL (didn´t he/she first complete his/her own collection of a few thousand cards before becoming "selfless" ?), some has to ask if the "selflessness" isn´t more the result of becoming the more and more bored by the game, and are their intentions really altruistic and selfless ? Creating "events" and "olympics" and other games, that mostly benefit other "big farmers" (I´ve been one of the few exceptions, by drawing a random featured legendary as a single nation) or motivate players to create even more farms or farming even more extensively...
Knowing about the nature of humankind - I say, greed (and also megalomania) is the basic problem, but we are all humans and these are human characteristics, bad ones, of course, but deeply human - nothing will change, because if something could be exploited or made, it will be made (just look at the stock exchange and the banking system in RL); thats psychology 101...
What´s the problem about "very rare or almost unobtainable cards" don´t have absurdly high prices ? No farming, no incredible ammounts of bank, thus more reasonable prices. If a player only can draw cards for one nation, ten bank for "Testlandia" is as hard to come by as the (I don´t know the actual price, maybe a fivehundred or thousand ?) extremely high and absurd price nowadays. The only difference would be, that the chances are the same for every player, and not only for the privileged bunch of "big farmers", which (enabled by farming and transferring) can pay such prices.
The momentary system is deeply elitist and capitalistic and in fact a perfect example of unfairness and practical constraint - either do the farming and participate, thus reinforce this system, or be excluded from almost every market transaction, because you don´t have the bank. The only (little and very rare and unlikely) exception (for a single nation) is to get (very) lucky on the draw.

Well, and then, if you read my postings (over a year or so), you would see, that I (and a few others) do not simply state "farming is bad", but as well analize, present possible solutions, make suggestions, declare reasons. But are mostly overwhelmed by the elitist farming bunch and their willingful lackeys and others - but that´s, how humans usually act. (psycology 101 once more).

I am a collector; I collect griffin-related cards and griffin motives almost since the beginning of season one, and have done so as a single nation. I´ve never asked unfair prices and don´t bid such, and almost never have done ufair practices like sniping or willingly interfering (some exceptions, I have to admit). My collection of 300 + griffins relates on a few nice gifts from other players (many thanks again), sheer patience, a little luck, much effort and uncountable hours of rifling through (I guess, about 100.000 cards) other players card-spaces and collections as well as a careful observation of the market. And a very lucky draw a few weeks ago.
That´s how I see the card sub-game and how it´s meant to be played.

[Noahs Second Country]

Another way would be to cancel the "card game" by the end of season two, but this would (imo) be seen as rude and been protested by many players which somehow enjoy this sub-game.

First of all, you have been a participant in the card game for well over a year now - so surely you somehow enjoy it too? It makes absolutely no sense to simply 'scrap' the game, which has been developed and refined for well over a year now... if cards against nationstates is still a thing, it seems completely pointless to discontinue cards. Ultimately, if cards are such a significant detriment to this game, then don't play. Nobody is forced to play cards.

About the "selfless" farmers (no offense meant) like TNL (didn´t he/she first complete his/her own collection of a few thousand cards before becoming "selfless" ?), some has to ask if the "selflessness" isn´t more the result of becoming the more and more bored by the game, and are their intentions really altruistic and selfless ?

The program that TNL contributes to/funds is designed to integrate new players into the cards game. Coupled with the cards giveaway program and card lottery, it's very clear that TNL is not intended to be a powerful card nation, rather, a supplement to the community.

Creating "events" and "olympics" and other games, that mostly benefit other "big farmers" (I´ve been one of the few exceptions, by drawing a random featured legendary as a single nation) or motivate players to create even more farms or farming even more extensively...

The Olympics are open to whoever, and have a very low entry ceiling, there is no advantage given to 'big farmers'. The pull events increase the supply of hard to acquire cards, which enables nations to complete their collections or acquire the card they always wanted.

Knowing about the nature of humankind - I say, greed (and also megalomania) is the basic problem, but we are all humans and these are human characteristics, bad ones, of course, but deeply human - nothing will change, because if something could be exploited or made, it will be made (just look at the stock exchange and the banking system in RL); thats psychology 101...

...please enlighten me about this 'psychology 101' you speak of. Actually, don't. There is no need to politicize a card game.

What´s the problem about "very rare or almost unobtainable cards" don´t have absurdly high prices ? No farming, no incredible amounts of bank, thus more reasonable prices. If a player only can draw cards for one nation, ten bank for "Testlandia" is as hard to come by as the (I don´t know the actual price, maybe a fivehundred or thousand ?) extremely high and absurd price nowadays. The only difference would be, that the chances are the same for every player, and not only for the privileged bunch of "big farmers", which (enabled by farming and transferring) can pay such prices.
The momentary system is deeply elitist and capitalistic and in fact a perfect example of unfairness and practical constraint - either do the farming and participate, thus reinforce this system, or be excluded from almost every market transaction, because you don´t have the bank. The only (little and very rare and unlikely) exception (for a single nation) is to get (very) lucky on the draw.

Or rather, the nations who get lucky end up accidentally dominating the card game. How is that fair? At least with farms, players can invest time into the game and produce bank, which they can use for their own purposes. Without farming, 99% of the collections we see around the community simply would not be possible, without a lucky pull. As a collector yourself, think about what pulling OT enabled for your collection... now you can endlessly expand it. But of course, that's all based on luck. In comparison, I bought that same card for 301 bank that took me 3 farming sessions to produce. Rather than relying on 'luck of the draw', I made a conscious effort to work my way up in the game, which I have successfully done. How is investing time and effort 'elitist' - if anything, farming is more fair than anything you propose.

Well, and then, if you read my postings (over a year or so), you would see, that I (and a few others) do not simply state "farming is bad", but as well analize, present possible solutions, make suggestions, declare reasons. But are mostly overwhelmed by the elitist farming bunch and their willingful lackeys and others - but that´s, how humans usually act. (psycology 101 once more).

You continue to complain about the 'elitist' card farmers, as if it is so difficult to join their ranks. Explain how I've managed to gain over 6000 deck value across a few nations in a mere 70 days... my primary nation is now ranked 38th in the world for card value. This isn't some anomaly, it is not difficult to make your mark in the cards world. When I first joined the cards community, I was welcomed with open arms; various nations(so called 'elitists') taught me how to be successful in this game. There aren't any trade secrets being hidden away to keep the elite in power... the only thing preventing you from being able to find further success in the cards game is stubbornness.

I am a collector; I collect griffin-related cards and griffin motives almost since the beginning of season one, and have done so as a single nation. I´ve never asked unfair prices and don´t bid such, and almost never have done ufair practices like sniping or willingly interfering (some exceptions, I have to admit).

You recently attempted to heist TNL during a highly publicized pull event...

My collection of 300 + griffins relates on a few nice gifts from other players (many thanks again), sheer patience, a little luck, much effort and uncountable hours of rifling through (I guess, about 100.000 cards) other players card-spaces and collections as well as a careful observation of the market. And a very lucky draw a few weeks ago.

You've clearly invested time into this cards game that players 'somehow enjoy'. I respect that, but I cannot understand how you simply dismiss the time and effort that card farmers have put into the game too; especially considering that many of the larger card farmers actively contribute to projects such as the cards guild, which gives back to the community and promotes the involvement of new players.

[Noahs Second Country]

The question of this thread is not about legality, it´s about ethics; and thus the answer can´t be "it´s not against the rules", or "everyone does it", and also not "I put a lot of time and/or effort in farming", because this doesn´t even touch the original question.
Is it ethical to kill people, because "I put a lot of time in the planning" ? Is it ethical to detonate an atomic bomb, because "I can do it", or "because "there are no rules against it" (fortunately for us all, there are some, somehow, in RL) ? Is it ethical/morally correct to pollute the world and environment, because "this helps the production of more goods (which I can sell to make me even more rich)" ?
.

I'd also like to address that in these examples, there are significant negative repercussions that directly harm other people, animals, and other living organisms... how exactly do puppets and card farmers cause widespread issues within NS to that degree?

[Coffin-Breathe]

You recently attempted to heist TNL during a highly publicized pull event...

You accuse me of heist ? Do I really have to remember you, that the market is open for every player and not an exclusive playground for a few dozen ones ?
If a card is on an auction, and some player is willing to sell this card for a slightly lower price, because he/she is more interested in the bid bank than in this specific card, so where is the problem ? Except that obviously you don´t seem to have totally understood the principles of a free market.

[Noahs Second Country]

You recently attempted to heist TNL during a highly publicized pull event...

You accuse me of heist ? Do I really have to remember you, that the market is open for every player and not an exclusive playground for a few dozen ones ?
If a card is on an auction, and some player is willing to sell this card for a slightly lower price, because he/she is more interested in the bid bank than in this specific card, so where is the problem ? Except that obviously you don´t seem to have totally understood the principles of a free market.

The question of this thread is not about legality, it´s about ethics

The card on auction was being sold between two TNP cards nations so that more people could pull it - it was never intended to be a buy or sale. And I'm sure you knew that, given that you frequent this forum and the event was announced weeks prior. So yes, feel free to steal 1000 bank during a pull event, but that makes me question your sense of moral high-ground here.

[Coffin-Breathe]

Excuse me, but I seem to remember that you were the one who was very eager to buy the card (at a meager price); then you got it for the price I were asking for, and now you´re trying to sell it for above double this price.
And above all, you dare to accuse me of "heisting" and "stealing" ?
Some people (like me) simply don´t care about your puny little "events", and you know why ? Because if I take a look at who is profiting from them, I only see "big farmers" (like you); for example TNL has drawn this card three times, so shut up and keep quiet; I definitely don´t like the terms "stealing" and "heist", especially not from someone like you.
By the way, TNL seems to be a grown-up person, so he/she could have tged me by him/herself, if he/she would have had a problem with my ask for the card. Which he/she didn´t do.
End of debate from my side.