Is defending fascists morally ok?

[Tsarus]

Not every fascists hates minorities. Look up Oswald Mosley, he's known as the "Gentle Fascist".

[MNIC]

But then every certain person decides what is negative. That is the problem, as every person who wants to be good has a different opinion

That may be, but how could fascism be morally good? How could, for the sake of the argument, The Confederation of Corrupt Dictators or Farkasfalka, be morally good? Given, you know, the recent information that's come to light about them.

Some crazy person probably thinks it is

[Tim-Opolis]

While I did drop in a topic in Moderation to drag this back to a GP discussion, so it doesn't stray to NSG, I'm gonna try to re-align it myself. I know, this is very off-color from my usual shitposting.

From a GP perspective, the OP's question could take two directions:

1. Is it morally okay to R/D Defend Fascist Regions?

2. Is it morally okay to generally defend Fascists from the constant R/D strikes they're taking from the R/D community?

There's some really straw-clutching posts I'd like to address in this thread, but they're more tinted in NSG than GP so I'll avoid that. Instead I'll answer the above two lines of questioning.

1. From a GP and R/D perspective, moralism is grounded in the logic that regions who have done nothing to earn the harm raiders bring to them don't deserve that and that those who are defender-aligned have a moral obligation to defend those who are unable to defend themselves. This argument falls apart when it comes to Fascist regions in a couple places, which I'll attempt to detail as best as I can.

• The vast majority of "active" fascist regions engage in raider activity. Per most moral R/D arguments, those who choose to go out and destroy regions lose any moral argument that could be made towards defending them. Not only do they then theoretically have a military, albeit usually a very incompetent one, to defend themselves with, but they chose to use that military to hurt other regions. It's one of those "You reap what you sow" situations. Even if you discard all the specific fascist ideology parts, those of us on the Defender side of things do not come to the aid of those who destroy regions when they themselves are troubled. It goes further though. The four largest defender military groups at the moment are The Grey Wardens, TITO, SPSF, and RRA. Of those, TITO and TGW have specific provisions detailing a lack of any defensive effort towards raider regions, and in fact will often-times invade founderless raider regions themselves. SPSF has specific provisions that basically enables them to perform as many anti-Fascist operations as they want. RRA is purely defender, but similarly does not raise a single finger to defend non-treatied UCR regions which engage in raid-oriented activities.
  
  While you could definitely make a convoluted moral argument that everyone is worth of being defended, that simply isn't the case in reality. The ultimate end-game goal for Defenders is to reduce the amount of raiding that is occurring, and it would be significantly counter-intuitive for us to defend regions which would then turn around and go back to destroying other regions.
  
  
  
• On top of that, if you want to involve yourself in an R/D Defense of Fascist regions, you also quickly lose all military cooperation opportunities that aren't fascists. Defenders work as one collective faction, and we simply don't allow fascist collaborators into our ranks both our of our own objections to it and due to the fact that cooperation with the unaligned military groups (TEP, TNP, NPO, etc) is far more important to us than harboring people who can't seem to learn who's on the R/D No Fly List. If you look at Raiders, there's really only one major non-GCR power (TBH), and they're of a similiar opinion because they'd lose TEP, TNP, TWP, etc if they started working with fascists. Even if you just want to go to a pure "Well we want to work with anyone who's willing to work with us" argument, you simply lose more than you gain from collaboration with fascist regions.

2. That depends on where you draw the line, I guess. The fact of the matter is, those fascist communities typically become founderless because their founders break the rules and get their nations deleted. I would have a lot less trophy regions in my possession if they knew how to follow the game rules, as would many other players. Anyways, say you either have no idea or how to R/D or simply don't want to, but are still frustrated that the fascists are getting "unfairly targeted" and want to complain about it. Cool. I would argue you still have no moral high ground to stand on, simply based on the fact of who you're defending. Even if you go completely IC, you are dealing with a subset of regions who consistently have trouble with Moderation, who consistently invade and destroy other regions, and who consistently attempt subversive efforts against the rest of the wider GP community. If you personally think that those people still deserve defending, then you're a lot more idealistic than me or likely aligned with them, but it's your choice I guess.

Personally, I think regions who choose to harm and destroy other regions lose the moral argument for their own protection, and fortunately that is an opinion shared by most of mainstream GP.

Furthermore, that individuals need to realize that coming to the defense of fascist regions can and should be marked down as collaboration with fascists, and will be treated as such.

---

Finally, I want to address a specific point raised by the OP. "

I don't like the SC being used to wage ideological warfare."

That's fine, but please realize that the SC has been used to wage ideological warfare for years before your nation even founded, and will continue to be used so. You can huff and puff all the hot air you want, but when it comes to a realist approach to the situation, you've got fuck all you can really accomplish. The Anti-Fascist SC voting bloc is pretty massive, because no relevant, major region is going to be caught dead voting in support of fascists.

[The Seeker of Power]

No.

/thread

Souls and I do not always agree, but he hit the nail this one time. /thread

[Kaystein]

Morally okay? No.

Stupid? Yes.

[WayNeacTia]

No.

/thread

Yep, pretty much this.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Better dead than red!

This^^ I hate how authoritarian commies are accepted in gameplay.

Before anyone asks, I oppose defending fascists. It's a disgusting ideology too.

[Kandorith]

No.

/thread

+ infinite

Can't say much more than that.

[Gorundu]

Better dead than red!

This^^ I hate how authoritarian commies are accepted in gameplay.

Name one.

[HypErcApitAl]

After what happened at Christchurch I would hope this question doesn’t even need to be asked

Really?

And to answer the question, I'd say 'yes,' depending on who's the 'enemy' at the time. But also, everyone's entitled to rights and opinions, even if those opinions are controversial.

[Vegaslovakia]

I don't know what happened with this region, but given the title of this thread, I'm assuming it's asking for a more general, not necessarily related to NationStates, answer.
My thoughts about this are that it depends how young the fascist is. Also, if they are fully mature while being fascist, but don't advocate for fascism due to the fact that they're still forming their political ideas, I'd want them to be protected as much as other people. If they're not fully mature, of course I want them to be protected. Even if they voice fascist ideas, I wouldn't let physical harm come their way because otherwise they could be instigated into racially-motivated hate crimes. There's also the chance that, if a young person is abused enough, they will NEVER consider non-fascist ideologies for that reason alone.
Harry Potter spoilers below (this was one of the reasons I started to think this way)

It's kind of like how humiliated the impressionable young Snape was by the young James Potter, specifically what Harry saw after dipping his head in the cauldron. I have to assume that what happened between James and Severus in their school days may have pushed Snape further into idolizing Voldemort, and it's simply because of how much hatred the young Snape felt. I also have to assume that if the incident left Snape with physical injuries, he may have NEVER realized how much he (in the future) screwed up by joining the Death Eaters.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Not every fascists hates minorities. Look up Oswald Mosley, he's known as the "Gentle Fascist".

I hate the intrusion of NSG into GP, but that ignorant statement cannot be left unchallenged. Mosley was well known for his anti-semitic views and actions.

[Lyrical International Brigade]

Regions get raided. I don't see most of you in GP threads gnashing your teeth and pulling your hair like this when pure raiders vandalize all kinds of regions because, essentially, they feel like it. But as soon as fascists are the target, not at random but specifically because they espouse the most purely evil ideology in human history (no, communism is not morally equivalent, not least because communist regimes murder people when they get communism wrong ['can it ever be gotten right' is a separate discussion entirely], while fascist regimes murder people when they get fascism right) - as soon as that happens, why - you've never heard such whining from anyone over the age of four. Even pure defenders don't drive the waaaaaaaaaaaaambulance this hard. For damn sure if there were more fascists on this site, you would not be remotely apologetic about invading whomever you pleased, because war is the health of the state and weaker regions deserve what they get and all that social darwinist crap. You'd be crowing even louder than NS-Antifa does. This pathetic whining is excruciating. Get over yourselves.

[Northern Morik]

Not every fascists hates minorities. Look up Oswald Mosley, he's known as the "Gentle Fascist".

Mosley was an anti Semite all the way through. His Blackshirts were well known for being violent.

[Sedgistan]

Not every fascists hates minorities. Look up Oswald Mosley, he's known as the "Gentle Fascist".

Mosley was an anti Semite all the way through. His Blackshirts were well known for being violent.

The nature of the thread's topic means that it may drift a little further away from the gameplay focus than we'd normally allow, but the quoted part above is definitely a threadjack not to continue.

[Deacarsia]

Yes

/thread

Yea.

[Nolo gap]

defending fasc-ISM is not ok. defending people, depends on their individual situation and circumstances.

[Boda]

No. What's with this recent uprising from blacklisted players and fascism?

[LiberNovusAmericae]

This^^ I hate how authoritarian commies are accepted in gameplay.

Name one.

North Korea also known as the Korean Peoples Army.

I will speak no more of this in this topic, for obvious reasons.

[FNU]

But ridding NS of Fascism seems like a pointless pipe dream. All we are doing is forcing it underground.

I object. We've had great people working on it for years. I think this region here has the idea.

The MT Army

That's all.

[West Leas Oros 2]

But ridding NS of Fascism seems like a pointless pipe dream. All we are doing is forcing it underground.

I object. We've had great people working on it for years. I think this region here has the idea.

The MT Army

That's all.

Fuck them. They're imperialists who are dogmatic to the point of invading and attacking not only fascists, but anyone who stands in their way. It's no wonder they align themselves with anarkiddies named after IRL street militias.

[Silver Commonwealth]

Nope, it isn't. The fact that it even is a question to debate is quite concerning. Tbh, I have no qualms about fascist regions being raided.

[Gorundu]

Name one.

North Korea also known as the Korean Peoples Army.

I will speak no more of this in this topic, for obvious reasons.

Yep, I knew that was going to be the answer. But what's the last time you saw them in GP? For all I know all they do is hang out with their Antifa buddies, which is hardly all of GP. Anyhow, most communist regions are not like North Korea, they don't support those RL "communist" governments. Which I think explains the lack of liberations against them.

[Latrovia]

I jumped too late in this conversation. >.<
Defending fascism? I personally never understood the people that embrace fascism in the first place? Why on Earth would someone want to have their life controlled by a single man or a woman that would essentially control every aspect of your daily life?

I feel like, people that have never lived a single day under a dictatorial regime support ideologies that have essentially suppressed and divided many families that have. My family lived under a dictatorial regime and my parents looking back in their lives, tell the stories they've experienced with horror. So no, defending a regime which essential regressed society is moralistically and ethically not okay.

Defending and supporting regions that live by those standards is also in no way okay.

[FNU]

I object. We've had great people working on it for years. I think this region here has the idea.

The MT Army

That's all.

Fuck them. They're imperialists who are dogmatic to the point of invading and attacking not only fascists, but anyone who stands in their way. It's no wonder they align themselves with anarkiddies named after IRL street militias.

*coughs about their museum*