Is defending fascists morally ok?

[Saiwania]

Fascism came about in the first place because democracy isn't really a good system. Perhaps systems with too many political freedoms can't handle times of crisis as decisively as a single powerful ruler or an elite junta? I'd say fascist regions that don't do defending/raiding should be left alone, but ones that participate in region wars are fair game I'd say. The same is true of any other ideology on here.

If a region is minding its own business, any outgroups should leave them alone. This goes out the window of course, if a region participates in region wars.

[Lord Dominator]

I think the moment you start attacking and suppressing someone because they have have extreme opinions, but have done no actual harm to anyone else, is the moment you start becoming the fascist piece of crap you vowed to destroy.

Lol. Fascist has a definition, and 'supressing the activities of fascists' isn't nearly enough to qualify for it.

[Syberis]

Peace---Offensive Raiding

See the disconnect?

"By Force if Necessary"

[Barometria]

If keeping to themselves, I fail to see the necessity.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Yes, but hanging out with a fascist doesn't make you a fascist.

In my experience the only people, either online or offline, who actually enjoy hanging out with fascists are other fascists. Maybe they don't start out that way, but eventually they either embrace ethno-nationalist ideologies themselves, or they run away once they see their "friends'" true faces.

So mere tags and embassies is grounds for invasion? This is like, at least 3 degrees of separation. Does that mean I can invade you guys for associating with anarchists? Like I said, you guys are imperialists hiding behind a veneer of liberty.

I count one degree of separation: fascist region <-> allegedly non-fascist region. Two degrees if you're talking about individual nations ("Gee, I didn't realize we had an embassy with TIC!"). At that point, see above, including Exhibit A: The Confederation of Corrupt Dictators, which is hemorrhaging players who have come to realize that not all that fascism around them is just roleplay.

All this is kind of beside the point, though: why spend so much energy convincing everyone that people sitting next to self-admitted fascists aren't fascist themselves, when they could much more easily show it to the world by standing up and walking away? Either they're still under a naïve delusion about their "friends," or they're simply fellow travelers trying to hide in plain sight.

Both groups are fair game.

So people not knowing that they are allied to fascists is grounds for raiding now too. You can attempt to justify your imperialism, but the rest of us see it for what it is. Once you've defeated your target, you branch out like a vicious beast, destroying anything nearby in your zeal.

[West Leas Oros 2]

So mere tags and embassies is grounds for invasion? This is like, at least 3 degrees of separation. Does that mean I can invade you guys for associating with anarchists? Like I said, you guys are imperialists hiding behind a veneer of liberty.

Thank you for conveniently ignoring the Discord side of things.

If literally tagging your region "Fascist" is 3 degrees of separation from wanting Fascists in your region, what do you consider first degree?

You can try and invade us for any reason you want, it wont change our mission, set in 2003, to stand in resistance to hate, tyranny, intolerance and oppression promoted by the forces of fascism on NationStates.

Your mission is a lie, a fabrication meant to help justify your actions. First degree would be literally going out there and attacking others in the name of fascism. Tags are a meaningless farce with very little in the way of actual beliefs. No one uses the tags seriously.

[Houndonia]

So people not knowing that they are allied to fascists is grounds for raiding now too. You can attempt to justify your imperialism, but the rest of us see it for what it is. Once you've defeated your target, you branch out like a vicious beast, destroying anything nearby in your zeal.

Yes, he can justify his "imperialism". The region is not a single nation, but many nations. It consist of many things. Every nation has experienced it once. You must understand that not every conflict is the art of Imperialism. I've seen many raiding nations fail, not for the hope of conquest or territory for the homeland, but for fun to say that raiding isn't a core mechanic would be like saying you can stop a train with a penny. To say that fascism is a core mechanic is madness. Imperial regions would have an emperor not a leader, and from what i've seen many raiding nations are also defenders with democratic governments. Even in this case Constitutional Monarchy isn't a form of imperial rule either. Many things can be said but some things are better left undisturbed.

[West Leas Oros 2]

So people not knowing that they are allied to fascists is grounds for raiding now too. You can attempt to justify your imperialism, but the rest of us see it for what it is. Once you've defeated your target, you branch out like a vicious beast, destroying anything nearby in your zeal.

Yes, he can justify his "imperialism". The region is not a single nation, but many nations. It consist of many things. Every nation has experienced it once. You must understand that not every conflict is the art of Imperialism. I've seen many raiding nations fail, not for the hope of conquest or territory for the homeland, but for fun to say that raiding isn't a core mechanic would be like saying you can stop a train with a penny. To say that fascism is a core mechanic is madness. Imperial regions would have an emperor not a leader, and from what i've seen many raiding nations are also defenders with democratic governments. Even in this case Constitutional Monarchy isn't a form of imperial rule either. Many things can be said but some things are better left undisturbed.

These supposed anti-fascist regions are conquering for territory. Non-monarchists can engage in Imperialism, even a democracy can be imperialist, attempting to conquer territory for their own gain. These regions fit the bill, destroying regions based on their own skewed perceptions of upholding liberty. They have started using "fascism" as a casus belli in any situation, and the zealous fanatics that make up their rank and file don't bother to learn the truth, but take what is told to them as undeniable fact. Even when non-fascists are destroyed, they don't apologize, nor do they offer restitution. They bend over backwards to defend their crimes, or they simply write it off as collateral damage. Nobody asked for their "help", because their idea of assistance is more akin to occupation.

[Nakena]

All this rises also an important question, one that hasnt been asked yet:

If the last big fascist region has fallen and everyone has ejected them from their regions. The fascists will all be in the Rejected Realms. And if they can get enough numbers they may be able to take that region over in the end. All they would ever need to do is mobilizing enough users from 4chan etc.

From there they would be an greater threat than they ever were in their small and insignificant regions, where they keep to themself.

[South Reinkalistan]

All this rises also an important question, one that hasnt been asked yet:

If the last big fascist region has fallen and everyone has ejected them from their regions. The fascists will all be in the Rejected Realms. And if they can get enough numbers they may be able to take that region over in the end. All they would ever need to do is mobilizing enough users from 4chan etc.

From there they would be an greater threat than they ever were in their small and insignificant regions, where they keep to themself.

I don't think it warrants explaining how unlikely that is.

[Nakena]

All this rises also an important question, one that hasnt been asked yet:

If the last big fascist region has fallen and everyone has ejected them from their regions. The fascists will all be in the Rejected Realms. And if they can get enough numbers they may be able to take that region over in the end. All they would ever need to do is mobilizing enough users from 4chan etc.

From there they would be an greater threat than they ever were in their small and insignificant regions, where they keep to themself.

I don't think it warrants explaining how unlikely that is.

They lack the organization skills tbh for such a venture. They can't even keep their regions together.

From the glances I suspect it's mostly like late teens who are like hurr-durr murr must overplay insecurity with extra-ideological fascist hardness double plus extra.

[The Gilded Star]

So people not knowing that they are allied to fascists is grounds for raiding now too.

The only way you can open embassies with multiple fascist regions, with explicit WFEs, and sometimes even fascism in their region name and not realize you're dealing with fascists is if you bury your head so deeply in the sand that it could be dug back up as a fossil.

[Houndonia]

So people not knowing that they are allied to fascists is grounds for raiding now too.

The only way you can open embassies with multiple fascist regions, with explicit WFEs, and sometimes even fascism in their region name and not realize you're dealing with fascists is if you bury your head so deeply in the sand that it could be dug back up as a fossil.

Thank you for bringing up this point

[Lyrical International Brigade]

So people not knowing that they are allied to fascists is grounds for raiding now too. You can attempt to justify your imperialism, but the rest of us see it for what it is. Once you've defeated your target, you branch out like a vicious beast, destroying anything nearby in your zeal.

You didn't answer my question:

why spend so much energy convincing everyone that people sitting next to self-admitted fascists aren't fascist themselves, when they could much more easily show it to the world by standing up and walking away?

[TRIEADMORE]

Never is it morally OK to defend fascists OR their right to freedom of speech.They must be silenced by whatever means possible, both non-violent or violent means if required.

[Skyhooked]

Never is it morally OK to defend fascists OR their right to freedom of speech.They must be silenced by whatever means possible, both non-violent or violent means if required.

Demoracy claims the right for free speech, so ya' gotta do all that in a more subtle and less violent manner. Like... give several fascist leaders some relatively prestigious, yet totally powerless and useless posts in governmnet, which is gonna make them more relaxed, use your own agents to infiltrate their own cells, build a spy network, get some dirty laudry and blackmail several key personell.

If ya' give them more free speech, one of them might accidently spill all their plans or at least a bit of critical information.

Or... use diplomacy to make several deals and bargains with them, on such conditions, that will harm them in long term, while all the benefits are short term and hardly significant, despite looking attractive. Silver tongue and psychology might help.

Just remember, that in democracy, violence is last resort. Use diplomacy and intrigue.

[Lord Dominator]

Never is it morally OK to defend fascists OR their right to freedom of speech.They must be silenced by whatever means possible, both non-violent or violent means if required.

Demoracy claims the right for free speech, so ya' gotta do all that in a more subtle and less violent manner. Like... give several fascist leaders some relatively prestigious, yet totally powerless and useless posts in governmnet, which is gonna make them more relaxed, use your own agents to infiltrate their own cells, build a spy network, get some dirty laudry and blackmail several key personell.

If ya' give them more free speech, one of them might accidently spill all their plans or at least a bit of critical information.

Or... use diplomacy to make several deals and bargains with them, on such conditions, that will harm them in long term, while all the benefits are short term and hardly significant, despite looking attractive. Silver tongue and psychology might help.

Just remember, that in democracy, violence is last resort. Use diplomacy and intrigue.

That's stupid as hel. The solution to 'fascists are on the site being fascists' is not to make them really obviously around, particularly since that legitimizes them.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

Oh for fuck's sake...

It's not about defending Fascists, it's about opposing the abuse of a system intended to provide BALANCE to the gameplay side. Today it's Fascists the WA is "liberating"; but what about tomorrow? When all the Fascist regions have been "liberated", who will be next? It's a fucking abuse of power is what it is. Liberation Resolutions are for freeing occupied regions from Raiders; not for waging ideological wars against people we politically disagree with. NS is, first and foremost, a GAME and GAMES are supposed to be FAIR. From a purely gameplay perspective it shouldn't matter who the player is or what they believe, only that they play by the rules. I'm aware that it technically isn't against the rules to "liberate" a region that isn't occupied by Raiders, but it should be because that is not the intended purpose of the Liberation mechanic and frankly it just sets a very bad standard to follow.

It's not the SC's job to punish people for their political beliefs. It really is that simple. Nobody is advocating to go out and vote for Fascists on the ballot box for Christ's sake. Grow the Hell up.

[Skyhooked]

That's stupid as hel. The solution to 'fascists are on the site being fascists' is not to make them really obviously around, particularly since that legitimizes them.

The goal is not to totally restrict and destroy them. This is impossible, and this will just push them underground, where it will be hard and wasteful to combat them. The goal is to create a world of illusions for them, where they will be contained in their harmless state and won't even realize it.

[Lord Dominator]

That's stupid as hel. The solution to 'fascists are on the site being fascists' is not to make them really obviously around, particularly since that legitimizes them.

The goal is not to totally restrict and destroy them. This is impossible, and this will just push them underground, where it will be hard and wasteful to combat them. The goal is to create a world of illusions for them, where they will be contained in their harmless state and won't even realize it.

The goal is to restrict their platform.

snip

It's been most of two years since Kaiserreich was liberated. Since then, the closest we've come to applying them on any non-fascist region (protestations of CCD to the contrary) is the recent thought to apply one to a region related to the harboring of similarly unpleasant players. Your slippery slope doesn't exist.

[Skyhooked]

The goal is to restrict their platform.

How about letting them to blow off their steam, while subtly making them less and less popular?

[Lord Dominator]

The goal is to restrict their platform.

How about letting them to blow off their steam, while subtly making them less and less popular?

They're already nearly as unpopular as it's possible to be. There's no benefit to allowing them in our regions or allowing their regions to sit undisrupted.

[Skyhooked]

They're already nearly as unpopular as it's possible to be. There's no benefit to allowing them in our regions or allowing their regions to sit undisrupted.

I just didn't notice this thread ain't "General" as I originally thought, cuz I entered it from Latest topics, sorry folks.

[Lord Dominator]

They're already nearly as unpopular as it's possible to be. There's no benefit to allowing them in our regions or allowing their regions to sit undisrupted.

I just didn't notice this thread ain't "General" as I originally thought, cuz I entered it from Latest topics, sorry folks.

Gotcha. Can't say I support those ideas irl, but you're right that that discussion doesn't particularly belong here.

Cheers!

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

snip

It's been most of two years since Kaiserreich was liberated. Since then, the closest we've come to applying them on any non-fascist region (protestations of CCD to the contrary) is the recent thought to apply one to a region related to the harboring of similarly unpleasant players. Your slippery slope doesn't exist.

Yet. My slippery slope doesn't exist yet. But should this trend of abuse continue, it very much will eventually. The definition of "Fascist" will become blurred; regions having nothing to do with Fascism will be targeted. When this happens I wonder if you'll have the stomach to admit you were wrong, or will try to justify it some other way, or will be suddenly and hypocritically outraged by something you once supported.

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Do you know who said this, when, and why? Because I do. We study history so that we might learn from past mistakes. When you use the same tactics as your enemies, are you really any better than them? They're are plenty of arguments you can use to argue that you are, but true or not they'll be done in bad faith. The moment you blur the line is the moment the line becomes meaningless.

I have a vast academic interest in Fascism, it's teachings, it's beliefs, etc. Yet I oppose it all the same. I have no admiration for the ideology; only contempt - for it and all it's followers. I know about Fascism so that I can better prevent Fascism and ideologies of a similar strand. I understand Fascist tactics.

This? This is a Fascist tactic. It isn't Fascism, no, but it embodies the same spirit as it: total disregard for what is right so long as our enemies are undermined.