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Is defending fascists morally ok?

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Vippertooth33
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vippertooth33 » Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:00 pm

J o J wrote:ANTIFA, meanwhile, attacks people way outside of that target range, for example The Free Republican Commonwealth. ANTIFA is one of the big reasons why I help fascists in the first place, they would invade a region that has a single embassy out of many with one fascist region.


This argument again...

The founder (Israeli Commonwealth) of The Free Republican Commonwealth was also the founder of The Free Commonwealth.

The Free Commonwealth was tagged Fascist and held embassies with the following Fascist regions: Farkasfalka, The New Weimar Republic and The Holy Reich of Bunicken.

The Free Republican Commonwealth held embassies with the following Fascist regions: The New Iron Order, Nuevo Amanecer, New Reich of Bunicken and The Holy Reich of Greater Germania.

In addition there was details found on Israeli Commonwealths Discord channel as touched on here: https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=37026448

Both regions were put out of commission by Antifa and friends after the founder was deleted.

Antifa is quite strict with its target options and has never raided a region outside of the Nazi / Fascist sphere.

Please consider that the "big reason" you are helping the fascists, may not be an authentic one.

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Joshii
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Postby Joshii » Sun Feb 23, 2020 11:38 pm

2nd Imperial German Reich wrote:This is a tricky question for me.

While we can all agree that fascism = hate and that fascism is an abhorrent totalitarian ideology, I do believe that fascists should maintain their right to freedom of speech. I do, however, also believe that we should heavily discourage association with known fascist groups and such.

Ironically, fascists need freedom of speech to remove freedom of speech. However, a fascist is still a human. And as such, they are entitled to the same rights that we are, no matter how heinous their opinions and ideology.


While facists are still human and yes they need to be given a freedom of speech, I still think they should not be freely roaming around the world like it's nothing.

If anything they should be imprisoned for life or executed

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West Leas Oros 2
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Postby West Leas Oros 2 » Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:41 am

Vippertooth33 wrote:
J o J wrote:ANTIFA, meanwhile, attacks people way outside of that target range, for example The Free Republican Commonwealth. ANTIFA is one of the big reasons why I help fascists in the first place, they would invade a region that has a single embassy out of many with one fascist region.


This argument again...

The founder (Israeli Commonwealth) of The Free Republican Commonwealth was also the founder of The Free Commonwealth.

The Free Commonwealth was tagged Fascist and held embassies with the following Fascist regions: Farkasfalka, The New Weimar Republic and The Holy Reich of Bunicken.

The Free Republican Commonwealth held embassies with the following Fascist regions: The New Iron Order, Nuevo Amanecer, New Reich of Bunicken and The Holy Reich of Greater Germania.

In addition there was details found on Israeli Commonwealths Discord channel as touched on here: https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=37026448

Both regions were put out of commission by Antifa and friends after the founder was deleted.

Antifa is quite strict with its target options and has never raided a region outside of the Nazi / Fascist sphere.

Please consider that the "big reason" you are helping the fascists, may not be an authentic one.

So mere tags and embassies is grounds for invasion? This is like, at least 3 degrees of separation. Does that mean I can invade you guys for associating with anarchists? Like I said, you guys are imperialists hiding behind a veneer of liberty.
Last edited by West Leas Oros 2 on Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:43 am

No
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Superbunny
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Postby Superbunny » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:15 am

Wallenburg wrote:No


Do you think you could actually explain your reasoning instead of just being dismissive towards what is actually a good discussion of morals?
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Lanorth
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Postby Lanorth » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:37 am

The word “Fascism,” or “Nazi,” as its used today, has been stripped of much of its specificity and meaning. If some people are having a debate they are losing or its getting a bit ugly, they will call their opponent a Fascist. If some people don't like Trump, they will call him a Nazi. In my opinion, it depends whether or not they are a full-on Nazi or just a Fascist, as there are several, big differences between the two. When people think of Fascism today, they will often straight away think of Hitler and The Holocaust. But Fascism and Nazism are not synonymous. For example, Mussolini doubted Hitler's belief in a master, biological race, the Aryans and Mussolini even had Jewish advisors in the early days he was in power. Whilst Nazi Germany never called themselves Fascist. They called themselves Nationalist Socialist, a distinct but related brand that incorporated Fascism into its beliefs and ideas, but added both more agrarian and more explicitly racist aspects to its ideology.
Last edited by Lanorth on Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:39 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:58 pm

Lanorth wrote:The word “Fascism,” or “Nazi,” as its used today, has been stripped of much of its specificity and meaning. If some people are having a debate they are losing or its getting a bit ugly, they will call their opponent a Fascist. If some people don't like Trump, they will call him a Nazi. In my opinion, it depends whether or not they are a full-on Nazi or just a Fascist, as there are several, big differences between the two. When people think of Fascism today, they will often straight away think of Hitler and The Holocaust. But Fascism and Nazism are not synonymous. For example, Mussolini doubted Hitler's belief in a master, biological race, the Aryans and Mussolini even had Jewish advisors in the early days he was in power. Whilst Nazi Germany never called themselves Fascist. They called themselves Nationalist Socialist, a distinct but related brand that incorporated Fascism into its beliefs and ideas, but added both more agrarian and more explicitly racist aspects to its ideology.

That's great and all, but whenever actual fascists are identifiable today, they always seems pretty willing to hang around with nazis, white supremacists, and etc. Much the same generally occurs here in NS.
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Israeli Totalitariat
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Postby Israeli Totalitariat » Mon Feb 24, 2020 4:42 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:
Lanorth wrote:The word “Fascism,” or “Nazi,” as its used today, has been stripped of much of its specificity and meaning. If some people are having a debate they are losing or its getting a bit ugly, they will call their opponent a Fascist. If some people don't like Trump, they will call him a Nazi. In my opinion, it depends whether or not they are a full-on Nazi or just a Fascist, as there are several, big differences between the two. When people think of Fascism today, they will often straight away think of Hitler and The Holocaust. But Fascism and Nazism are not synonymous. For example, Mussolini doubted Hitler's belief in a master, biological race, the Aryans and Mussolini even had Jewish advisors in the early days he was in power. Whilst Nazi Germany never called themselves Fascist. They called themselves Nationalist Socialist, a distinct but related brand that incorporated Fascism into its beliefs and ideas, but added both more agrarian and more explicitly racist aspects to its ideology.

That's great and all, but whenever actual fascists are identifiable today, they always seems pretty willing to hang around with nazis, white supremacists, and etc. Much the same generally occurs here in NS.

Yes, but hanging out with a fascist doesn't make you a fascist.

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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:24 pm

Israeli Totalitariat wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:That's great and all, but whenever actual fascists are identifiable today, they always seems pretty willing to hang around with nazis, white supremacists, and etc. Much the same generally occurs here in NS.

Yes, but hanging out with a fascist doesn't make you a fascist.

Indeed it does not (though it doesn't speak much if you're hanging out with the average one), but I was speaking about the tendency of fascists to hang out with nazis (and similar).
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New Rogernomics
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Postby New Rogernomics » Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:52 pm

Defending fascism is never morally okay, just like defending any other authoritarian system that would exist to undermine human rights and deny democratic self-determination of the masses. When role-playing a fascist society, the goal should not be to celebrate or encourage that ideology in other regions or individuals, but to express how terrible it is from an educational or illustrative standpoint.

That said, it is possible to set a nation or region as fascist and not bother anyone in Nationstates, it all depends on whether those doing it have the understanding that fascism is pretty unacceptable to truly believe in or push for - and aren't trying to push that on other regions and expand the ideology to be a threat or disturbance to other players.

Historically, there have been various forms of fascism, such as Spain under Franco being a good example, as is Chile under Pinochet. The earlier lasted well past the second world war and most of atrocities were during the civil war, whereas the later is infamous for concentration camps and disappearances of his political opponents. None of these ended well or started well, so it is hard to really push these as positive ideologies with a morally justifiable outcome.

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Lyrical International Brigade
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Postby Lyrical International Brigade » Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:15 pm

Israeli Totalitariat wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:That's great and all, but whenever actual fascists are identifiable today, they always seems pretty willing to hang around with nazis, white supremacists, and etc. Much the same generally occurs here in NS.

Yes, but hanging out with a fascist doesn't make you a fascist.

In my experience the only people, either online or offline, who actually enjoy hanging out with fascists are other fascists. Maybe they don't start out that way, but eventually they either embrace ethno-nationalist ideologies themselves, or they run away once they see their "friends'" true faces.

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:
Vippertooth33 wrote:
This argument again...

The founder (Israeli Commonwealth) of The Free Republican Commonwealth was also the founder of The Free Commonwealth.

The Free Commonwealth was tagged Fascist and held embassies with the following Fascist regions: Farkasfalka, The New Weimar Republic and The Holy Reich of Bunicken.

The Free Republican Commonwealth held embassies with the following Fascist regions: The New Iron Order, Nuevo Amanecer, New Reich of Bunicken and The Holy Reich of Greater Germania.

In addition there was details found on Israeli Commonwealths Discord channel as touched on here: https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=37026448

Both regions were put out of commission by Antifa and friends after the founder was deleted.

Antifa is quite strict with its target options and has never raided a region outside of the Nazi / Fascist sphere.

Please consider that the "big reason" you are helping the fascists, may not be an authentic one.

So mere tags and embassies is grounds for invasion? This is like, at least 3 degrees of separation. Does that mean I can invade you guys for associating with anarchists? Like I said, you guys are imperialists hiding behind a veneer of liberty.


I count one degree of separation: fascist region <-> allegedly non-fascist region. Two degrees if you're talking about individual nations ("Gee, I didn't realize we had an embassy with TIC!"). At that point, see above, including Exhibit A: The Confederation of Corrupt Dictators, which is hemorrhaging players who have come to realize that not all that fascism around them is just roleplay.

All this is kind of beside the point, though: why spend so much energy convincing everyone that people sitting next to self-admitted fascists aren't fascist themselves, when they could much more easily show it to the world by standing up and walking away? Either they're still under a naïve delusion about their "friends," or they're simply fellow travelers trying to hide in plain sight.

Both groups are fair game.
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Borovan entered the region as he
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Postby Borovan entered the region as he » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:12 pm

Defending fascists is not ok.

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Vippertooth33
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vippertooth33 » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:40 am

West Leas Oros 2 wrote:So mere tags and embassies is grounds for invasion? This is like, at least 3 degrees of separation. Does that mean I can invade you guys for associating with anarchists? Like I said, you guys are imperialists hiding behind a veneer of liberty.


Thank you for conveniently ignoring the Discord side of things.

If literally tagging your region "Fascist" is 3 degrees of separation from wanting Fascists in your region, what do you consider first degree?

You can try and invade us for any reason you want, it wont change our mission, set in 2003, to stand in resistance to hate, tyranny, intolerance and oppression promoted by the forces of fascism on NationStates.

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Sedgistan
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Anarchy

Postby Sedgistan » Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:21 am

Joshii wrote:While facists are still human and yes they need to be given a freedom of speech, I still think they should not be freely roaming around the world like it's nothing.

If anything they should be imprisoned for life or executed

Underlining is mine. *** Warned for trolling. ***

This thread exists because there are players considered "fascist" on the site. You cannot wish death on other site users. I've been lenient as this is your first offence, but that kind of post would normally attract a forum ban.

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Barometria
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Postby Barometria » Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:41 am

Vippertooth33 wrote:
West Leas Oros 2 wrote:So mere tags and embassies is grounds for invasion? This is like, at least 3 degrees of separation. Does that mean I can invade you guys for associating with anarchists? Like I said, you guys are imperialists hiding behind a veneer of liberty.


Thank you for conveniently ignoring the Discord side of things.

If literally tagging your region "Fascist" is 3 degrees of separation from wanting Fascists in your region, what do you consider first degree?

You can try and invade us for any reason you want, it wont change our mission, set in 2003, to stand in resistance to hate, tyranny, intolerance and oppression promoted by the forces of fascism on NationStates.


Why is Discord relevant? Discord is not NationStates. If Discord is a problem (chat app, right?) go encourage Discord to do something about their presence on Discord.

Again, the ability to tag a region, “Fascist,” is just further proof that NS, as a website and entity, doesn’t see fit to prevent Fascist regions. If you want to change something, then advocate for a change to that...but not by way of so-called, “Liberation.”

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South Reinkalistan
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Postby South Reinkalistan » Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:03 am

Barometria wrote:
Vippertooth33 wrote:
Thank you for conveniently ignoring the Discord side of things.

If literally tagging your region "Fascist" is 3 degrees of separation from wanting Fascists in your region, what do you consider first degree?

You can try and invade us for any reason you want, it wont change our mission, set in 2003, to stand in resistance to hate, tyranny, intolerance and oppression promoted by the forces of fascism on NationStates.


Why is Discord relevant? Discord is not NationStates. If Discord is a problem (chat app, right?) go encourage Discord to do something about their presence on Discord.

Again, the ability to tag a region, “Fascist,” is just further proof that NS, as a website and entity, doesn’t see fit to prevent Fascist regions. If you want to change something, then advocate for a change to that...but not by way of so-called, “Liberation.”

By the same token, the game doesn't see fit to prevent fascist regions from being destroyed by antifascist raiders.

It's a game about political simulation. The NationStates Community, on the whole, immensely dislikes fascism and the sort of shit it preaches. Thus, you should not be surprised when the community utilises game mechanics wholly available to them in order to destroy fascist regions.
Last edited by South Reinkalistan on Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Barometria
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Postby Barometria » Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:16 am

South Reinkalistan wrote:By the same token, the game doesn't see fit to prevent fascist regions from being destroyed by antifascist raiders.

It's a game about political simulation. The NationStates Community, on the whole, immensely dislikes fascism and the sort of shit it preaches. Thus, you should not be surprised when the community utilises game mechanics wholly available to them in order to destroy fascist regions.


Agreed, but to my understanding, the SC should not be used to conduct Raids, but rather for defense. If anti-Fascist Raiders (outside of the purview of the SC, or working without the express authorization of the SC) want to raid a Fascist Region...fair game.

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South Reinkalistan
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Postby South Reinkalistan » Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:21 am

Barometria wrote:
South Reinkalistan wrote:By the same token, the game doesn't see fit to prevent fascist regions from being destroyed by antifascist raiders.

It's a game about political simulation. The NationStates Community, on the whole, immensely dislikes fascism and the sort of shit it preaches. Thus, you should not be surprised when the community utilises game mechanics wholly available to them in order to destroy fascist regions.


Agreed, but to my understanding, the SC should not be used to conduct Raids, but rather for defense.

Hm? But I thought the Security Council's prerogative was to "Spread international peace and goodwill, by force if necessary."
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Barometria
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Postby Barometria » Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:25 am

Peace---Offensive Raiding

See the disconnect?

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Garbanzony
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Postby Garbanzony » Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:34 am

I think the moment you start attacking and suppressing someone because they have have extreme opinions, but have done no actual harm to anyone else, is the moment you start becoming the fascist piece of crap you vowed to destroy.

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Houndonia
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Postby Houndonia » Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:01 am

I understand the viewpoints that I've read. The issue here is that defending an idea against a minority is incorrect. Allowing ideologies that spread fear and hate is a risky thing. While I do support freedom of speech and political belief, I disapprove of the idea of freedom to discriminate. The world has seen what fascism done, and to say that it can be defended is simply incorrect. While fascism lead to the creation of things like the UN and the Geneva Convention, it doesn’t mean it was a positive thing. On top of this just because a nation fights against a fascist region, doesn’t mean that they are an imperialist. In fact it can simply mean liberation. I mean look at history, we’ve seen liberation with non-imperial goals. We must also understand the issue with normalization of such ideas, because that can be the biggest threat of all. We must remember history so we don't make the same mistakes.
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Postby Luziyca » Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:03 am

Not going to lie, I seriously thought this was NSG.

Either way, my answer's still the same: no.
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South Reinkalistan
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Postby South Reinkalistan » Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:22 am

Barometria wrote:Peace---Offensive Raiding

See the disconnect?

Peace and Goodwill; considering the fact that I severely doubt fascist regions have any 'goodwill' in them, I'd say that using the Security Council as a means to destroy them is entirely legitimate.

Besides, quite a few fascist regions have raiding military forces anyway. Surely to take them out, one would be spreading peace by dispatching of raiders?
Garbanzony wrote:I think the moment you start attacking and suppressing someone because they have have extreme opinions, but have done no actual harm to anyone else, is the moment you start becoming the fascist piece of crap you vowed to destroy.

Alternatively, these people would do harm if they had their way. Also, I find it to be a bit harsh to call people who suppress fascism 'fascists' themselves; even if one acknowledges your point, it's a bit hard to claim that engaging in such suppression is comparable to the evil that is fascism.

Not to mention, this is a webgame. It's sometimes important to keep that in mind, before you blow things like this out of proportion.
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Barometria
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Postby Barometria » Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:28 am

War/Peace is a dichotomy. I agree with you in cases of a warring/raiding Fascist region. I disagree in cases where a region is keeping to itself because an act of war is less peaceable than anything they merely say.

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South Reinkalistan
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Postby South Reinkalistan » Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:33 am

Barometria wrote:War/Peace is a dichotomy. I agree with you in cases of a warring/raiding Fascist region. I disagree in cases where a region is keeping to itself because an act of war is less peaceable than anything they merely say.

That was my opinion, until I saw the sort of things they said. Seriously, people like that should be raided into the ground by all means necessary, as far as I'm concerned.
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