Is defending fascists morally ok?

[Rainbowsix]

is defending anarchists and groups like antifa morally ok?

love 2 see nobody answer this

[Tim Wore Pink on Wednesday and]

is defending anarchists and groups like antifa morally ok?

love 2 see nobody answer this

Nobody is answering it because it's not the topic of the thread.

If you want to mess about with this whataboutism, make a separate thread.

[Kaystein]

is defending anarchists and groups like antifa morally ok?

love 2 see nobody answer this

No.

[J o J]

I was technically going to stay out of the thread but since a certain someone saw fit to bring me up: I don't care if you want to roleplay WWII Germany. It does however draw in actual Nazis and fascists by default and then you have a region full of actual adherents of hateful ideologies. The issue isn't as cut and dry as anyone with a fascist tag means auto-Nazi to me. We de-tag regions that are clearly tag collectors or just have a theme with roleplay. We raid the actual adherents of fascism and Nazism. Very different.

Well, far from me to endorse NPO, but at least NPO does it right. ANTIFA, meanwhile, attacks people way outside of that target range, for example The Free Republican Commonwealth. ANTIFA is one of the big reasons why I help fascists in the first place, they would invade a region that has a single embassy out of many with one fascist region.

As for the original question, if you think fascism is bad because it isn't a democratic system then sure, you could say it isn't moral. If you think that it isn't detestable just because it isn't democratic, then I suppose it is fine to defend them, like I do. It really depends on your view point of politics to determine whether you think fascism, or any autocracy for that matter, is immoral or not.

Nazism and racism is a whole different topic; it is almost always immoral to do business with them. However, when ANTIFA and other red regions allow Stalinists and Maoists into their ranks, I think fascism gets a pass for allowing Nazis, don't you think? What's fair is fair.

[Lyrical International Brigade]

I was technically going to stay out of the thread but since a certain someone saw fit to bring me up: I don't care if you want to roleplay WWII Germany. It does however draw in actual Nazis and fascists by default and then you have a region full of actual adherents of hateful ideologies. The issue isn't as cut and dry as anyone with a fascist tag means auto-Nazi to me. We de-tag regions that are clearly tag collectors or just have a theme with roleplay. We raid the actual adherents of fascism and Nazism. Very different.

Well, far from me to endorse NPO, but at least NPO does it right. ANTIFA, meanwhile, attacks people way outside of that target range, for example The Free Republican Commonwealth. ANTIFA is one of the big reasons why I help fascists in the first place, they would invade a region that has a single embassy out of many with one fascist region.

Psst, nobody tell the fascists that NPO participates in Antifa. Apparently they couldn't figure it out from all the trophy WFEs, so who knows what else they may have missed? Looking forward to finding out!

[Mirial Magna]

As the new liberation comes closer and it is almost a guarantee that the The Union of the Axis Powers will be liberated, I am not fully ready to take a side. On one side, I worry if it ok to support a group of fascists that are against communist ideals, naming themselves after horrible people. I don't really want to support the Union, but on the other end of things, I don't like the SC being used to wage ideological warfare. The writer of the bill did not write a great bill, and is a communist(which I support more than fascists) looking to wage war on a region that has anti-communist manifestos. In other words, I don't like either option. However, I would be interested to hear the opinions of others, as the crown jewel of democracy is the opinions of the people.

If we're banning fascist regions and users, we should also ban tankie regions and users.

Personally, I'd make this forum into a place for right-libertarians, conservatives, socnats, and monarchists.

[Yokiria]

Defending fascists is not morally okay.

That includes distracting from criticism of fascism by talking about other ideologies.

[Mirial Magna]

I concede that this is true and apologize for my distraction.

I say we should pass laws to ban fascist symbols, or perhaps set up a fascist honeypot organization and start arresting members at random.

[J o J]

Well, far from me to endorse NPO, but at least NPO does it right. ANTIFA, meanwhile, attacks people way outside of that target range, for example The Free Republican Commonwealth. ANTIFA is one of the big reasons why I help fascists in the first place, they would invade a region that has a single embassy out of many with one fascist region.

Psst, nobody tell the fascists that NPO participates in Antifa. Apparently they couldn't figure it out from all the trophy WFEs, so who knows what else they may have missed? Looking forward to finding out!

I already know that NPO and ANTIFA often co-operate and work together. However, NPO and other GCR forces usually aren't the ones who initiate an attack on regions outside the anti-fascist target range. ANTIFA has an immense and bloated range of targets, many of whom are not fascist at all, and NPO often times shows some form of assistance in those operations; but that being said, they aren't the ones initiating such operations. And for the record, if you're thinking that trophy WFEs are something that the entire NS metaverse checks out after a region gets raided then you're sorely mistaken.

Psst, nobody tell the commies that not a soul outside of ANTIFA cares about their copy-pasted WFEs.

[Mirial Magna]

Psst, nobody tell the fascists that NPO participates in Antifa. Apparently they couldn't figure it out from all the trophy WFEs, so who knows what else they may have missed? Looking forward to finding out!

I already know that NPO and ANTIFA often co-operate and work together. However, NPO and other GCR forces usually aren't the ones who initiate an attack on regions outside the anti-fascist target range. ANTIFA has an immense and bloated range of targets, many of whom are not fascist at all, and NPO often times shows some form of assistance in those operations; but that being said, they aren't the ones initiating such operations. And for the record, if you're thinking that trophy WFEs are something that the entire NS metaverse checks out after a region gets raided then you're sorely mistaken.

Psst, nobody tell the commies that not a soul outside of ANTIFA cares about their copy-pasted WFEs.

What are these abbreviations?

[Barometria]

Object to the phrasing of the question in the subject of the thread.

Defending free speech and defending Fascism are two totally different things.

You can have conditional free speech as a matter of practicality, or as a matter of the rules of a particular venue...but if those rules are being followed (which they were in this case) then speech is no longer free if general topics (in this case, Fascism) are restricted.

You can’t seek to restrict or eliminate a topic whilst simultaneously claiming to be in favor of free speech. It’s counterintuitive and must be one of the other. For me, it’s one of the very few clearly, “One or the other,” type choices.

That said, if you don’t believe in free speech, just admit it. You’re allowed not to believe in free speech.

[Mirial Magna]

Object to the phrasing of the question in the subject of the thread.

Defending free speech and defending Fascism are two totally different things.

You can have conditional free speech as a matter of practicality, or as a matter of the rules of a particular venue...but if those rules are being followed (which they were in this case) then speech is no longer free if general topics (in this case, Fascism) are restricted.

You can’t seek to restrict or eliminate a topic whilst simultaneously claiming to be in favor of free speech. It’s counterintuitive and must be one of the other. For me, it’s one of the very few clearly, “One or the other,” type choices.

That said, if you don’t believe in free speech, just admit it. You’re allowed not to believe in free speech.

True, but free speech doesn't apply on this highly specific, fairly obscure forum. NationStates has a right to ban fascist users, and is not infringing on their free speech by doing so. Unlike platforms such as YouTube or GoDaddy.

Total free speech is overrated, anyways.

[Barometria]

NationStates has the right to do whatever NATIONSTATES wants. That would include creating an actual rule forbidding any discourse of a Fascist nature not directly pertinent to in-game issues, which would then thereby include not being permitted to have regions with the goal of promoting and discussing Fascism.

However, NS has no such rule. Thus, the former Region in question was conducting their free speech currently within the NS rules. The SC resolution had no real goal other to punish a region for promoting a particular ideal that the NS rules do not prevent them from doing.

IOW, it should not be for in-game mechanisms to punish or restrict free speech, but rather for NS rules to be more restrictive. If you really want to eliminate Fascism from the site, simply change the site’s rules. Because the rules have not been changed, one must conclude that the site does not wish to eliminate such discourse at this time.

[Mirial Magna]

NationStates has the right to do whatever NATIONSTATES wants. That would include creating an actual rule forbidding any discourse of a Fascist nature not directly pertinent to in-game issues, which would then thereby include not being permitted to have regions with the goal of promoting and discussing Fascism.

However, NS has no such rule. Thus, the former Region in question was conducting their free speech currently within the NS rules. The SC resolution had no real goal other to punish a region for promoting a particular ideal that the NS rules do not prevent them from doing.

IOW, it should not be for in-game mechanisms to punish or restrict free speech, but rather for NS rules to be more restrictive. If you really want to eliminate Fascism from the site, simply change the site’s rules. Because the rules have not been changed, one must conclude that the site does not wish to eliminate such discourse at this time.

Well then upgrade the rules and take a look at my real-world action proposal.

[Duravia]

I strongly believe fascism is morally wrong, so no, defending fascist is not morally ok. But not all people share same moral values...

[West Leas Oros 2]

Fuck them. They're imperialists who are dogmatic to the point of invading and attacking not only fascists, but anyone who stands in their way. It's no wonder they align themselves with anarkiddies named after IRL street militias.

*coughs about their museum*

Their "Museum" is little more than a wall to showcase their plunder.

[Pinochetlande]

After what happened at Christchurch I would hope this question doesn’t even need to be asked

Wow. That's as cucked as it gets.

[Rainbowsix]

love 2 see nobody answer this

No.

thats what im saying.. if it's not morally ok to defend those groups then it should be morally not ok to defend fascists.. if it's morally ok to defend those groups then it's morally ok to defend fascism...

[Rainbowsix]

love 2 see nobody answer this

No.

thats what im saying.. if it's not morally ok to defend those groups then it should be morally not ok to defend fascists.. if it's morally ok to defend those groups then it's morally ok to defend fascism...

[West Leas Oros 2]

No.

thats what im saying.. if it's not morally ok to defend those groups then it should be morally not ok to defend fascists.. if it's morally ok to defend those groups then it's morally ok to defend fascism...

I think it's not about what ideology a region follows or not, but what that region does in pursuit of that ideology. It's no surprise then, that fascist regions tend to pillage and plunder and destroy, because generally that's what fascists do.

[Barometria]

No.

thats what im saying.. if it's not morally ok to defend those groups then it should be morally not ok to defend fascists.. if it's morally ok to defend those groups then it's morally ok to defend fascism...

I still think you're mixing up defending free speech and defending the topic matter of said speech. My arguments against, 'Liberating,' the region had precisely nothing to do with a defense of Fascism itself.

[Reploid Productions]

Wow. That's as cucked as it gets.

*** WARNED for flamebaiting. *** Protip: if you can't make your argument without calling someone "cucked", maybe you shouldn't be posting that argument.

[Tim-Opolis]

If we're banning fascist regions and users, we should also ban tankie regions and users.

Personally, I'd make this forum into a place for right-libertarians, conservatives, socnats, and monarchists.

Personally, you can do whatever your heart desires. If you want to go create that region, go for it. If you want to make that movement, go for it. NS is a sandbox, you just have to recognize that sometimes your sandcastle is going to get kicked down.

Ultimately, we're not "banning" anything. The majority of this community, particularly those with big GP military forces to swing at hapless regions, deem Fascist regions as the problem. Due to that, we take extensive military, diplomatic, and political action to ensure that the anti-Fascist agenda is maintained. That's that. So many of the people who wander into this forum to scream bloody murder seem to think that there is a debate to be had here, or that their single voice has any relevance up against the stature of the regions making these decisions. We don't see the Communist regions as similarly problematic, and no amount of forum whinging is going to change that perspective.

You not liking the ideological slants with which we play our game is not our problem, nor are we beholden to change because you don't like it.

[Israeli Totalitariat]

If it immediately prevents what fascism causes, sure.

[Lord Dominator]

Fascists have plenty of free speech.

Gameplay & others coming around and smashing their regions isn't at all contradicting that free speech - it's the chosen response to that speech. That is, censure, not censor(ship).