The Watchlist

[August]

Seems dumb for other regions to participate, as essentially you're handing your entire server logs and your members nations to a group of players who say they're not involved in GP, but miraculously appear when they suddenly become interested in GP again. Information is power, and by having the bot in your server, you're giving every discord user, every discord conversation, even every emoji posted to the hosts of the bot and whoever they deem to share it with. Power corrupts, and despite them saying 'we're not bad, you should trust us', unless every member is comfortable with all this info being shared, regional admins shouldn't add to their servers.

The overall idea of having a public document where people can submit evidence and everyone can see it is a decent idea despite the issues, just the issue is lack of trust of whoever runs the list.

I am confused. You have read my thread, and even quoted the section where I say I have sole, 100% control of the bot, so why do you think there are multiple hosts? I will reiterate: nobody other than myself has access to the backend or the database. Nobody (including myself) other than admins on their own servers ever sees the logs. Perhaps you distrust me personally, but there is no need to bring a mysterious "us/them" into it.

Moving on to the issue of trust: that quoted section is in there as a standard disclaimer that it can happen, not that there is any chance it will. AAbot v2 has been running in servers other than my own for over a year now with zero incidents, and v1 was running in other regions' servers for more than a year before that. Nothing has been damaged, nothing has been leaked, no trust has been violated--and no power has corrupted. It seems like my retired status would actually work in my favor here; my complete withdrawal from the gameplay sphere means I have no stake anymore.

I suppose one could say "August is investing his heart and soul over the long-term, spending countless hours making new features and providing personal support, just waiting for the right moment to strike and betray all his stated principles," but that seems a little paranoid, no?

[Aynia Moreaux]

Truthfully it sounds like people are just sus of August? If so you don't have reason to be, he has a great reputation and a great history, and I've worked with him for several months now. I know that without AugustinAndroid we wouldn't have been able to run UCR Con as well as we did, he really saved our butts.

My word might not mean much to a lot of people, but I fully support August and the Watchlist.

[Indo-Malaysia]

This has been around for a while. Nothing new.

And though it’s a Wikipedia stub atm, it’s a very good resource in the works.

[August]

Indo suggested that the Watchlist be made visible outside of NSL. This turned out to be a lot easier than I expected. The >view_watchlist command can now be used by moderators and above in all servers. I am open to lowering the permissions requirement, but this feels appropriate.

[The JELLEAIN Republic]

So basically you (I’m assuming illegally) compile a list of people’s op addresses and share them amongst “admins” for your own moderation layer.

Ripe with possibility for abuse.
Would be best if they kept it to themselves.

Hiya! Emi here, I have seen Altino has already said a little bit, but I wish to expand a little bit. There seems to be some confusion from you on as to how the Watchlist operates and what information it entails so let me clear it up for you! First off, the Watchlist is a feature of the Augustin Android V2 which is a bot customly built for NationStates on discord that anyone can invite to their server and operate. This feature is not a compilation of addresses nor is anything gathered illegally in the process. The Watchlist catalogs an individuals known user IDs, Usernames, and nations all which is public information that anyone can find on anyone. In addition it also catalogs links to evidence to support the reason they are on the watch list. As the post says, when a spambot on the list enters a server that uses AugustinAndroid v2 and has the Watchlist feature enabled, the bot automatically bans it. When a dangerous person enters or is otherwise detected, the bot sends a warning to the server's staff. As August has also pointed out, those who are considered and added to the watchlist are essentially those who have been determined to have engaged in quite harmful practices against other people such as harassment, exploitation, threats, etc. Minor offenses and petty squabbles are not getting anyone a spot on the list, and the standard for evidence is high.

Now you seem to be concerned that this is exclusive to August or a select few group of people but as I have already pointed out the Augustin Android is available to all, the Watch List itself is also subject to public. The only place in which those can be added to or removed from the watchlist does not exist within the hands of the bots creator nor a select few he has chosen but a public forum known as the NS Leaders Discord server. The NS Leaders discord server is a public server open to all regions of NationStates founders, delegates, and senior delegates (more information here). Here anyone who fits one of these categories may propose that an individual be added to this list and they may explain why, presenting a formal statement with evidence. This will be brought before all present in the NS Leaders chat and must reach 85% approval for that individual to make it onto the Watch List. No single person or region or "admin group" has control over it. It is a very much large, group effort.

This is a valuable tool that people may use in order to keep those who they wish to keep out of their servers and the Watch List, and even bot mind you, are features a server owner can choose to utilize and if they do not wish to use it then they do not have to. The Watch List can be ignored, switched off for a particular listed account on a particular server, or disabled altogether. I encourage you to give it a go yourself if you have a server and if not, I encourage you to give another read to the Watch List feature and the Augustin Android itself and give her a little bit more of a fair chance. I hope I could clear a few things up and I hope you have a blessed day.

Thank your for the clarification, I though it was somthing it wasn’t.
And I understand now that it’s a discord thing,

And being community and transparent does a lot to take away the possible abuse.
I guess all there is to say is have an appeals systems.

[The JELLEAIN Republic]

Why not have a moderation systems where poepel contribute evidence into an evidence locker and if it’s vetted as real evidence or bad behavior put it in the evidence vault, where people can take a look at it and list decisions,

A bot might be helpful using algorithm so in trying to collect evidence for the locker.

But only evidence in the evidence vault, proven by staff, should be visible by all.
As well as counter evidence.

[Lycos]

Why not have a moderation systems where poepel contribute evidence into an evidence locker and if it’s vetted as real evidence or bad behavior put it in the evidence vault, where people can take a look at it and list decisions,

A bot might be helpful using algorithm so in trying to collect evidence for the locker.

But only evidence in the evidence vault, proven by staff, should be visible by all.
As well as counter evidence.

There isn't "counter evidence" to the sort of things that get a person on the Watchlist. Either there is evidence or no evidence.

That being said, the evidence submitted to the Watchlist is already reviewed and vetted by NSL staff before the public vote. We can and will request that evidence that does not meet the standards be removed from the final evidence logs.

[Twins of Hearts]

I am sure we can all trust the NSL staff!

After all, they are leaders or delegates of regions, even if the region is tiny or large. The player? Experienced or not, doesn't matter!

While some of you will presume/assume I am being snarky, I actually like the straight forward "everyone is equal" to vote idea. That way, evidence can be submitted to Augustin and it will be decided for us. Of course, the question remains, how far back do you reach? Do you include the DOS players from this site, which have proven track records of seriously dangerous and disruptive behavior? Or will it include simply the people being shunned by the "cool kids club" at this moment in time? Is being on a watchlist permanent? If so, I feel that is a weakness, people do change over time. Will evidence handed to Augustin also be considered "doxxing" if it contains personal information? I am of the position that should not happen, and anyone who hands over personally identifiable information should be placed on the watchlist them-self.

Hopefully the watchlist will be treated as a method to try and get to both sides of an issue, compliant, accusation, etc and actually heal some old wounds in the process! I am so pleased to see some conflict resolution potential here!

[Altino]

Just to clarify, for some of you worried about having the bot actually in your server: if your founder or delegate is actually in the NSL server - or really anyone you know is in the server if we're being honest - they can access the watchlist from there. You do NOT need the bot in your server to access the information on it. Having the bot on your server gives you the added advantage of automatic notifications if the known identity of someone on the Watchlist joins or is already in your server. This means that if you have a dangerous person in your server, the bot will automatically let you know that this needs your attention, give you a factual report of why they are considered dangerous, and logs to back them up. The automation of the process is what makes the bot valuable. If you don't want to use the bot you can still access this same information on the NSL server.

To require you to use a specific bot to protect your communities would be ridiculous. Lol. I would not even offer it.

To recap, a few things that the Watchlist will do:
- Provide information.
- Guarantee that this information has been thoroughly vetted.
- Guarantee that this person is widely regarded as dangerous.
- Notify you automatically of a problematic person's presence if you are using the bot or give you the availability to find out more about them through the NSL server if you are not.

What the Watchlist will not do:
- Attempt to decide the fate of any of its entries. We have no interest in enforcing either the positive or negative fate of anyone in this game as individuals. That should always be a community decision.
- Present any opinions with the information that it offers. During voting and discussion in the NSL server plenty of opinions are shared, but none of them will be represented in the facts given.
- Be swayed by repentance. The Watchlist provides facts, and facts do not change regardless of how sorry anyone is.
- Be owl themed in any way. :( This saddens me as much as I know it saddens all of you.


Also, for the record, the Watchlist is already open and has been in effect for a while now. We are not asking anyone's permission to turn this into a thing. :) It is already a thing. We are only welcoming you to use it.

[Imperium of Josh]

- Be owl themed in any way. This saddens me as much as I know it saddens all of you.

Truly, this is the greatest loss.

In any event, this list is a very good idea. We do have a collective problem of losing track of evidence over time. I've noticed it when trying to find stuff I had, let alone stuff from years ago. A database of it is very helpful.

And yeah, you absolutely do not need the bot on your server to make use of it. I'm someone in that camp - the bot just doesn't fit with the ethos of my region's server, but I can easily go to the Leader's discord (I'm a founder of a region, using another nation), and review the watchlist there. It's nowhere near completed yet, hell, it has some glaring omissions, but this is an ongoing process and it makes me more optimistic that complete information can and will be made available to those who need it.

[Latrovia]

This bot has a great potential in keeping our communities safe from people with malicious intends.
But as a Technical Admin in my region I wish to learn more about it?

How does it exactly function? How does it gather logs? Are the logs submitted by admins or is the bot monitoring 24/7 chat channels?
Additionally what if we invite the bot in a secondary channel away from our main server? Can we submit evidence and logs then manually?

To add to this, while I don't put Augusts "good reputation" in the NSGP in question, I personally do not trust external unverified software, unless I have personally seen the collected data.
When it comes down to privacy and security, taking a leap of faith out over someone's good reputation is just plainly moronic. In the history of the NSGP we have seen many people with a good standing and a good reputation turning out to be the Devil in disguise. While I mean no offense to August, I am also not going to compromise our Members privacy or our servers privacy over one's good reputation without priory having verified their bot.

If my words counts for anything, try to find work around, instead of inviting a bot with such great abilities in your server.

[Kaystein]

This bot has a great potential in keeping our communities safe from people with malicious intends.
But as a Technical Admin in my region I wish to learn more about it?

How does it exactly function? How does it gather logs? Are the logs submitted by admins or is the bot monitoring 24/7 chat channels?
Additionally what if we invite the bot in a secondary channel away from our main server? Can we submit evidence and logs then manually?

To add to this, while I don't put Augusts "good reputation" in the NSGP in question, I personally do not trust external unverified software, unless I have personally seen the collected data.
When it comes down to privacy and security, taking a leap of faith out over someone's good reputation is just plainly moronic. In the history of the NSGP we have seen many people with a good standing and a good reputation turning out to be the Devil in disguise. While I mean no offense to August, I am also not going to compromise our Members privacy or our servers privacy over one's good reputation without priory having verified their bot.

If my words counts for anything, try to find work around, instead of inviting a bot with such great abilities in your server.

I have a private discord I invited the bot to. Im tinkering with it. I can invite you and let you have admin so you can figure it out.

[Lycos]

This bot has a great potential in keeping our communities safe from people with malicious intends.
But as a Technical Admin in my region I wish to learn more about it?

How does it exactly function? How does it gather logs? Are the logs submitted by admins or is the bot monitoring 24/7 chat channels?

All of this would be better directed at the AAbot thread.

Additionally what if we invite the bot in a secondary channel away from our main server? Can we submit evidence and logs then manually?

As I believe the OP explains, you cannot submit evidence anywhere except the NSL server. There is no advantage to adding the bot to a side server just for the WL function, because then it would not be able to alert you when a watchlisted member joins the main server.

If you don't trust AAbot in your server, then you can just keep tabs on the Watchlist through NSL and manually watch for listed users joining your server.

To add to this, while I don't put Augusts "good reputation" in the NSGP in question, I personally do not trust external unverified software, unless I have personally seen the collected data.
When it comes down to privacy and security, taking a leap of faith out over someone's good reputation is just plainly moronic. In the history of the NSGP we have seen many people with a good standing and a good reputation turning out to be the Devil in disguise. While I mean no offense to August, I am also not going to compromise our Members privacy or our servers privacy over one's good reputation without priory having verified their bot.

If my words counts for anything, try to find work around, instead of inviting a bot with such great abilities in your server.

Again, this is a criticism of the bot, not of the Watchlist.

[Kaystein]

The bot has a backup feature for your discord server. you can schedule daily backups, and save data on channel logs, who has what server role, everything can be restored if your server is attacked.

[August]

I would like to point out again that I have a very long and completely unblemished track record when it comes to privacy and security. My low post count here does not make me an unpredictable element. Anyone I worked with on both sides of R/D prior to my retirement, anyone who runs one of the ~90 servers that already use the bot, and anyone who knows me well at all can confirm this. You are right to have your doubts, to a degree, but I have to wonder how many years of good service it takes for one to prove themselves. My apologies if this comes across as defensive--it has been a hectic week and I am no longer accustomed to the gameplay environment.

Other than that...

All of this would be better directed at the AAbot thread.

[Yokiria]

I trust August with this sort of thing, and this is a good idea, but count me as one of the ones saying that the timing of this announcement was awful.

[Bormiar]

Could someone explain what the timing problem is?

[Davelands]

Could someone explain what the timing problem is?

It's nothing really.
There are some threads recently about the Blacklist and Whitelist which got somewhat contentious.
The complaint is that this was publicized just after that conversation was dying down.
In reality, this bot/project has been in testing long before those conversations.

[Boda]

Could someone explain what the timing problem is?

It's nothing really.
There are some threads recently about the Blacklist and Whitelist which got somewhat contentious.
The complaint is that this was publicized just after that conversation was dying down.
In reality, this bot/project has been in testing long before those conversations.

But then why didn't August post it while it was happening?

[Bormiar]

Could someone explain what the timing problem is?

It's nothing really.
There are some threads recently about the Blacklist and Whitelist which got somewhat contentious.
The complaint is that this was publicized just after that conversation was dying down.
In reality, this bot/project has been in testing long before those conversations.

Yeah I thought it might’ve been about the whitelist stuff. “Sorry we’re not canceling our project because of you” seems like a good message to give them though.

[Yokiria]

The complaint is that this was publicized just after that conversation was dying down.
In reality, this bot/project has been in testing long before those conversations.

How does the fact the bot was in testing long before those conversations happened address the complaints that this was publicized at a bad time?

Yeah I thought it might’ve been about the whitelist stuff. “Sorry we’re not canceling our project because of you” seems like a good message to give them though.

What? The timing complaints are mostly from non-blacklisted players, and not a one of us said that the project should've been cancelled.

But then why didn't August post it while it was happening?

It probably wasn't ready yet.

[Lyrical International Brigade]

The complaint is that this was publicized just after that conversation was dying down.
In reality, this bot/project has been in testing long before those conversations.

How does the fact the bot was in testing long before those conversations happened address the complaints that this was publicized at a bad time?

Yeah I thought it might’ve been about the whitelist stuff. “Sorry we’re not canceling our project because of you” seems like a good message to give them though.

What? The timing complaints are mostly from non-blacklisted players, and not a one of us said that the project should've been cancelled.

I don't understand the timing complaints, tbh. If anything, the timing says "Not only are we not going to magically forgive dangerous players for the crimes they've committed, but also here is this versatile new tool the community can use in the struggle to keep people safe!"

I think this was timed perfectly.

[Ethan Allen]

This bot, the creator, and the members of the NSL server are completely untrustworthy. This is just another political tool used to spy and discriminate. I warn everyone against using this bot.

[Syberis]

I would like to point out again that I have a very long and completely unblemished track record when it comes to privacy and security. My low post count here does not make me an unpredictable element. Anyone I worked with on both sides of R/D prior to my retirement, anyone who runs one of the ~90 servers that already use the bot, and anyone who knows me well at all can confirm this. You are right to have your doubts, to a degree, but I have to wonder how many years of good service it takes for one to prove themselves. My apologies if this comes across as defensive--it has been a hectic week and I am no longer accustomed to the gameplay environment.

Other than that...

All of this would be better directed at the AAbot thread.

Honestly, I can confirm this. August and his team do good work.

[Altino]

Thank you all for your support and understanding! Timing and qualms with August's bot aside, I really appreciate this reception. It is hard to know what to do when it comes to heavy OOC issues, and I understand that giving the information that people need to protect themselves has not always been how GP thought that things should be handled. But I will be really happy to see people be more able to keep predators away from their doorstep safely, and hopefully help knock out that "GP is so controlling" commentary when it comes to problematic players and why they should not be allowed to stay. This makes me feel more able to help smaller communities without the connections that we all have protect themselves and step into the NS World on the right foot.

In this OOC battle, sometimes I feel like there's nothing we can do and every answer is wrong. But this is something we CAN do. So thank you guys hugely for your patience. :)