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[SPLIT] Blacklist/Whitelist discussion

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:44 am
by Twins of Hearts
A Bloodred Moon wrote:
Sedgistan wrote:Hi, Block. I was actually wanting to know the answer to a similar question - how's invader/defender activity these days? I've been told by some people that it's not nearly as high as it was a few years back.

That is most certainly true. Early 2019, defending seemed to have collapsed. Holds with 4 endorsements were allowed to go on for 2 weeks before they were liberated. Then several raider officers retired or went inactive, while defending was given an opportunity to catch a break and get things up and running again. Only there were hardly any big raids going on to defend against, so that wasn't ideal either. As of recent, raider officers have started getting active again and some new faces have shown up, while defending is alive again too, to a certain degree. While R/D is decently active again, it certainly isn't as active as it used to be.



I wonder why so many veteran raiders decided to stop raiding? Perhaps that was the point of the blacklist all along? Geld the raiders so the knitting circle does not have their gossip interrupted? Just a theory.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:59 am
by Xoriet
Twins of Hearts wrote:I wonder why so many veteran raiders decided to stop raiding? Perhaps that was the point of the blacklist all along? Geld the raiders so the knitting circle does not have their gossip interrupted? Just a theory.

Acceptable losses.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:18 am
by Wabbitslayah
Twins of Hearts wrote:
A Bloodred Moon wrote:That is most certainly true. Early 2019, defending seemed to have collapsed. Holds with 4 endorsements were allowed to go on for 2 weeks before they were liberated. Then several raider officers retired or went inactive, while defending was given an opportunity to catch a break and get things up and running again. Only there were hardly any big raids going on to defend against, so that wasn't ideal either. As of recent, raider officers have started getting active again and some new faces have shown up, while defending is alive again too, to a certain degree. While R/D is decently active again, it certainly isn't as active as it used to be.



I wonder why so many veteran raiders decided to stop raiding? Perhaps that was the point of the blacklist all along? Geld the raiders so the knitting circle does not have their gossip interrupted? Just a theory.

Blacklisted raiders are a minority to non-blacklisted raiders, new and old. Try a different argument.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:22 am
by Twins of Hearts
Xoriet wrote:
Twins of Hearts wrote:I wonder why so many veteran raiders decided to stop raiding? Perhaps that was the point of the blacklist all along? Geld the raiders so the knitting circle does not have their gossip interrupted? Just a theory.

Acceptable losses.


Yes, the State of R/D surely reflects that...hitting Iran for the 342nd time.

Wabbitslayah wrote:
Twins of Hearts wrote:

I wonder why so many veteran raiders decided to stop raiding? Perhaps that was the point of the blacklist all along? Geld the raiders so the knitting circle does not have their gossip interrupted? Just a theory.

Blacklisted raiders are a minority to non-blacklisted raiders, new and old. Try a different argument.


Ah, so minority groups do not matter to you? The voiceless, the infringed upon?

I actually just wrote something about this very thing. Take a peek if you like!
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1303449

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:57 am
by Lord Dominator
There's only one new 'partial blacklist' in raiders this year, for deliberately and knowingly concealing Money. The remaining parts of the org responded by merging with Hartfelden & going defender apparently willingly. TRI wasn't exactly active from what I saw at that point anyways, so sure, much harm has been done by blacklists this year :roll:

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:03 am
by Twins of Hearts
This year is 7 days old in my time zone. Wait, no, 6 1/2 days old :)

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:37 am
by The Church of Satan
Twins of Hearts wrote:I wonder why so many veteran raiders decided to stop raiding? Perhaps that was the point of the blacklist all along? Geld the raiders so the knitting circle does not have their gossip interrupted? Just a theory.

It's because they're veteran raiders. The passage of time and the change in circumstance. More responsibilities IRL and as a result, less time to raid. Don't try pushing your (stupid) agenda or making excuses to further it. It's just pathetic.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:02 am
by Twins of Hearts
The Church of Satan wrote:
Twins of Hearts wrote:I wonder why so many veteran raiders decided to stop raiding? Perhaps that was the point of the blacklist all along? Geld the raiders so the knitting circle does not have their gossip interrupted? Just a theory.

It's because they're veteran raiders. The passage of time and the change in circumstance. More responsibilities IRL and as a result, less time to raid. Don't try pushing your (stupid) agenda or making excuses to further it. It's just pathetic.


The first half of your statement may make some sense. Maybe. I have not seen many "going away parties" in gameplay recently. The second half, attempting to flame me by use of micro aggressive language, is noted as a great example of what a proposal like https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1303449 The White List Campaign is about removing from gameplay. Toxic nastiness for the sake of being toxic and nasty. No Good. Scares away new players, and burns out "veteran" ones.

I would like to suggest a nice vacation for you, perhaps a sunnier clime shall reflect itself in your language choice? Always a pleasure though The Church of Satan.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:33 am
by Frattastan IV
Who would be eligible for this, in your opinion? ie, when you say "victims of blacklisting", are there people that you are specifically thinking of?

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:44 am
by Blood Wine
Sedgistan wrote:Nah, it genuinely makes me pleased when players who I used to have to smack around regularly for rules violations move past that and stick around for the long-term.


I mean, i wasn't that much of a regular

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:58 am
by Block II
I know I was a regular customer.

I’m in support of this White List Campaign, btw.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:05 pm
by The Notorious Mad Jack
This white list campaign bullshit is nothing more than an attempt to let dangerous types back into our communities. It's kinda sickening.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:08 pm
by South Reinkalistan
OOC: Meh, I don't mind this whole whitelisting thing. Everyone deserves a second chance, after all; though I do think there are some people who shouldn't be given such forgiving treatment.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:13 pm
by The Notorious Mad Jack
Lol, have just been informed who is behind this campaign. no wonder they want it, being a blacklisted player themselves. :roll:

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:20 pm
by South Reinkalistan
The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:Lol, have just been informed who is behind this campaign. no wonder they want it, being a blacklisted player themselves. :roll:

OOC: As a relatively new player to the whole NSGP scheme, could someone please briefly explain to me as to what Twins of Hearts did to be blacklisted? Sorry, just curious - this whole blacklisting system is new to me, anyway :l

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:49 pm
by Block II
Mad Jack is a part of #BullyCulture. :/

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:55 pm
by Twins of Hearts
Frattastan IV wrote:Who would be eligible for this, in your opinion? ie, when you say "victims of blacklisting", are there people that you are specifically thinking of?


I would say that a player, whom feels unfairly blacklisted, would Have a shot at The White List. LIke I said, its sort of a work in progress. I think multiple players would need to be involved, on "both sides" to coach the game players that believe in this sort of discrimination, to let go of their hate and intolerance, as well as to help victims of blacklisting to be viewed more neutrally. Honestly it would take people with "clout". As for initial "victims", I had not given that much thought as of yet, instead wanting to get a dialogue started.

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:This white list campaign bullshit is nothing more than an attempt to let dangerous types back into our communities. It's kinda sickening.
Incorrect. Also pejorative.

South Reinkalistan wrote:OOC: Meh, I don't mind this whole whitelisting thing. Everyone deserves a second chance, after all; though I do think there are some people who shouldn't be given such forgiving treatment.


Exactly. And this is not about a simple "second chance", its about removing the false power dynamic some players have asserted over other players in this game. The White List eliminates this silly and wasteful blame game, removes the bullying dynamic, and the perpetuation of losing players, or worse, creation of incredible friction.

Block II wrote:I know I was a regular customer.

I’m in support of this White List Campaign, btw.


Glad to have your support. I know you have a history involving the Blacklist.

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:Lol, have just been informed who is behind this campaign. no wonder they want it, being a blacklisted player themselves. :roll:


Trying to smear me will fail, as I assign a zero level value to attempts to shame or bully me personally into submission. However you may be a Prime Candidate The Notorious Mad jack for working with
The White List, to remove the incredible level of apparent hostility you have towards victims of The Blacklist. As far as my presence on it, yes, I am a victim of the blacklist, however I do not care about
coming off it, not like some other nations do. They, and all the points in the dispatch I created, are the focus of The Whitelist Campaign.

The goal is to reduce toxicity. TO reduce bullying. To reduce systematic labeling, shaming and discrimination, and get back to playing NationStates.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:03 pm
by South Reinkalistan
OOC: Ehh... yeah, I do indeed agree with this whitelist initiative and all (based on my limited knowledge, mind you), but my hopes for it actually getting anywhere aren't exactly high. It's an uphill battle, it would seem.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:05 pm
by ROM
Block II wrote:I know I was a regular customer.

I’m in support of this White List Campaign, btw.

It figures that you would be in support of this. :roll:

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:11 pm
by Block II
It does, doesn’t it? What victim wouldn’t support an effort to end his suffering so he can enjoy the game?

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:19 pm
by The Church of Satan
Twins of Hearts wrote:The first half of your statement may make some sense. Maybe. I have not seen many "going away parties" in gameplay recently. The second half, attempting to flame me by use of micro aggressive language, is noted as a great example of what a proposal like https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1303449 The White List Campaign is about removing from gameplay. Toxic nastiness for the sake of being toxic and nasty. No Good. Scares away new players, and burns out "veteran" ones.

I would like to suggest a nice vacation for you, perhaps a sunnier clime shall reflect itself in your language choice? Always a pleasure though The Church of Satan.

NS is rarely a place of ceremony. Then again you see so little of its inner-workings while you're gathering dust in the corpse of Sanctum so I wouldn't expect you to understand.

Toxic nastiness is exactly why someone ends up on the blacklist. Even your endorsement of your Whitelist campaign however is a farce because you're not on the blacklist. You were just salty about losing an election and decided to spin wild conspiracies about how everyone was out to get you. It may have cost you your citizenship in TRR, but you were never blacklisted as far as I know. You can't possibly identify with your targeted demographic. Keeping dangerous players out doesn't scare away new players. Thy don't even know about it at first. And when they do know, it reassures them that their community will protect them. It also doesn't burn out veteran players. It reassures them as well. Because being able to feel safe tends to reassure people. Any instances to the contrary are as of yet, non-existent.
South Reinkalistan wrote:OOC: Meh, I don't mind this whole whitelisting thing. Everyone deserves a second chance, after all; though I do think there are some people who shouldn't be given such forgiving treatment.

The blacklist is reserved for the most dangerous players in NS. Players who crossed lines that shouldn't be crossed; forum destruction, sexual harassment, death threats, racism, homophobia, etc. Players who have proven themselves to be harmful to communities. Twins here (or should I call him drunkenconquerors?) is trying to convince people that players like that haven't done anything wrong. That we should all welcome them with open arms and encourage their behavior. That is what his little Whitelist campaign supports. It's not something that should be encouraged. It shouldn't even exist.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:45 pm
by Devi
South Reinkalistan wrote:OOC: Meh, I don't mind this whole whitelisting thing. Everyone deserves a second chance, after all; though I do think there are some people who shouldn't be given such forgiving treatment.

The problem is that most of these people *have* been given second chances, third chances, and so on. Usually after either disappearing for a month or two and hoping everyone's forgotten about them, or after making grand claims to have reformed, only to revert to old behaviour almost immediately
While I'm not against second chances, there's a point where welcoming those people into a community does more harm than the slim chances of rehabilitation can justify

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 3:14 pm
by Block II
I for one, have seen the error of my ways and am here to make amends. Hence my New Years resolutions. :p

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:31 pm
by Wayneactia
Block II wrote:It does, doesn’t it? What victim wouldn’t support an effort to end his suffering so he can enjoy the game?

Blacklisted people aren't victims. They are perpetrators, whose own actions put them on the blacklist to begin with. Actions speak far louder than words.

PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:32 pm
by Flanderlion
It's weird seeing Sedge in red rather than the well deserved blue. Glad to see him back, be it for an hour or a decade.

--

Re blacklist stuff, either move on from the game, or play in your own sandbox and just act decently. Blacklist doesn't mean you're banned from the game (only moderation can do that - although a few people blacklisted should be removed from the game or even society as a whole), just that you aren't suitable to play with the rest of us.