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[SPLIT] Blacklist/Whitelist discussion

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
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Benevolent Thomas
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Benevolent Thomas » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:05 pm

Maybe we should stop interacting with them, here, in this forum.
Ballotonia wrote:Personally, I think there's something seriously wrong with a game if it willfully allows the destruction of longtime player communities in favor of kids whose sole purpose is to enjoy ruining the game for others.

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The Blaatschapen
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Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Sat Jan 11, 2020 2:15 am

Vaculatestar64 wrote:
Guy wrote:Thankfully, whether or not you are allowed back into NationStates regions isn't quite the same thing as reintegration into society following completion of a prison sentence. NS communities have to put the safety of their users first, and any other considerations are secondary to that. We aren't trained to mitigate the risk that people who have engaged in misconduct in the past might pose. (And, of course, the ability to participate in NS isn't comparable to not being incarcerated, being able to get a job and housing and integrate into society, etc.)

Rather than complain about the treatment of so-called 'blacklisted' players, if any of you truly desire a second chance, you would have to convince someone that any risks that you pose have been substantially, if not wholly, mitigated. You could do this by showing some insight into the reasons for which you are banned, rather than simply complain about it. Address the harm that you have caused in the past, show some understanding of it and contrition for it, and perhaps even try to make amends where possible.

Until then, all that I get from this 'whitelisting' campaign are people upset that their actions have consequences for themselves, without understanding that it's the consequences to others from their actions that have landed them where they are.



Incredible, it's almost as if integrating back into NationStates is simpler than reintegrating back into society after incarceration. While NationStates is similar to society in that people are willing to stab literally ANYONE in the back to get ahead, there are many more differences than there ever are similarities, wouldn't you agree?


I disagree. I think society is better than that. My outlook on society is not Hobbesian (the philosopher, not the player).
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Wayneactia
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Wayneactia » Sat Jan 11, 2020 5:16 am

Vaculatestar64 wrote:Amazing, what if our prison system had that same attitude. ;)

Most states do. It is called Disfranchisement. Think of being blacklisted as that.

Benevolent Thomas wrote:Maybe we should stop interacting with them, here, in this forum.

That is the dream isn't it?

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Twins of Hearts
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Founded: Nov 07, 2004
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Twins of Hearts » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:42 am

The Church of Satan wrote:So now you're painting it as a power play? There's no low you won't go, is there? Truly shameful.


The attempt to shame me by calling the white list campaign or myself “Truly Shameful” is not a hook I am going to bite. Please refrain from debasement, its uncomfortable. Thanks!

Benevolent Thomas wrote:Maybe we should stop interacting with them, here, in this forum.


This is a blatant advertisement of the blacklist. “Them” being a few players who dared to out themselves and try to explain to a disbelieving forum reading nation about their situation, from their perspective.

While I am not surprised, I am disappointed in your choice to continue blacklist behavior.

Guy wrote:Thankfully, whether or not you are allowed back into NationStates regions isn't quite the same thing as reintegration into society following completion of a prison sentence. NS communities have to put the safety of their users first, and any other considerations are secondary to that. We aren't trained to mitigate the risk that people who have engaged in misconduct in the past might pose. (And, of course, the ability to participate in NS isn't comparable to not being incarcerated, being able to get a job and housing and integrate into society, etc.)

Rather than complain about the treatment of so-called 'blacklisted' players, if any of you truly desire a second chance, you would have to convince someone that any risks that you pose have been substantially, if not wholly, mitigated. You could do this by showing some insight into the reasons for which you are banned, rather than simply complain about it. Address the harm that you have caused in the past, show some understanding of it and contrition for it, and perhaps even try to make amends where possible.

Until then, all that I get from this 'whitelisting' campaign are people upset that their actions have consequences for themselves, without understanding that it's the consequences to others from their actions that have landed them where they are.


You make some valid points. However, I do not believe “...convince someone that any risks you pose....” falls within a framework of mutual acknowledgement of the mutual harm the shame based, discriminatory blacklisting has done and then, and much more important, the healing of the actual nations and moving on from pointless, endless conflict.

Borovan entered the region as he wrote:Ooc: God a telegram that's not even a WA proposal this was annoying most don't want to even see this or have no idea what it's talking about
the ambassador starts thinking of blocking all telegram preferences and starts ripping whatever papers are in front of him


Sorry, I thought marking it as a campaign would be wise as I plan to attempt authoring a Wa proposal to increase civil rights and freedoms by outlawing the blacklist. That of course would be an IC and in game thing.

I have received well over 100 telegrams responding, and 80 percent were in support of eliminating the black list practice and replacing it with a better conflict resolution based model that keeps people playing, not griping over real or percieved offenses from x number of years gone by.

If there are those objecting to his idea simply because I authored it... well this is not necessary as Implementing a white list in a region would not involve me at all. This is grass roots, and removes nations from influencing others, perpetuating conflict in a negative manner, and promotes healing between the aggrieved parties thmselves.

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Vaculatestar64
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Founded: Feb 18, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Vaculatestar64 » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:05 pm

Wayneactia wrote:
Vaculatestar64 wrote:Amazing, what if our prison system had that same attitude. ;)

Most states do. It is called Disfranchisement. Think of being blacklisted as that.

Benevolent Thomas wrote:Maybe we should stop interacting with them, here, in this forum.

That is the dream isn't it?


The vast majority of the USA, save for a very few states in the deep south are moving or have moved far away from that method, and I've heard many people within the power groups of this game speak out against this practice, but turn around and behave like that in their personal lives. It's almost as if the majority of NS players are hypocrites or something right? I wonder how many skeletons current power players have in their closet that they wouldn't want to get out, I'm guessing most of them are in that position. ;)

Interesting that there wasn't even an attempt to say I was wrong in that a huge "I'm sorry I was wrong thread" would just turn into a massive troll.

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Cormactopia Prime
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:37 pm

Benevolent Thomas wrote:Maybe we should stop interacting with them, here, in this forum.

This. They're just here for the attention they can't get anywhere else anymore; giving it to them is giving them what they want.
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Ever-Wandering Souls
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:58 pm

Whitelist? More like shite list.

Syberis wrote:There's no removing from the blacklist because there's no formal blacklist. There's no great stone tablet somewhere with names carved into it. Some regions might have their own lists, some orgs might share shitty behavior with other people, but pretending there's some cabal distributing some blacklist newsletter is just kinda dumb.


Shhh, if we're quiet then they might go ahead and make the list for us.
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Lord Dominator
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Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:02 pm

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:Whitelist? More like shite list.

Syberis wrote:There's no removing from the blacklist because there's no formal blacklist. There's no great stone tablet somewhere with names carved into it. Some regions might have their own lists, some orgs might share shitty behavior with other people, but pretending there's some cabal distributing some blacklist newsletter is just kinda dumb.


Shhh, if we're quiet then they might go ahead and make the list for us.

:rofl:

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The Church of Satan
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby The Church of Satan » Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:52 pm

Your telegram, Twins, neglected to mention the seriousness of the awful things blacklisted players have done. I know it's very convenient for you, because if they knew, all those players that expressed support would turn on you immediately. You've done a good job of reeling them in with a lie, an illusion that you sell to them while pointing the gun at every decent region in NationStates.
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Wayneactia
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Wayneactia » Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:02 pm

The Church of Satan wrote:Your telegram, Twins, neglected to mention the seriousness of the awful things blacklisted players have done. I know it's very convenient for you, because if they knew, all those players that expressed support would turn on you immediately. You've done a good job of reeling them in with a lie, an illusion that you sell to them while pointing the gun at every decent region in NationStates.

One word. Predator. Now it is true certain players on that list have redeemed themselves and are very welcome member of the community i.e. Vandoosa, but they didn't make a big song and dance about it. Their actions redeemed them, not a bunch of empty words on a forum. Keep that in mind Twin.

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Custadia
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Founded: May 29, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Custadia » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:23 pm

Wayneactia wrote:One word. Predator.


It'd be great if that was the only word needed to sum up what we're talking about here but it's not even close. We're not just talking about illegal scripts used to cheat at R/D, we're talking about people being harassed, exploited, doxxed and threatened. One spoils the game, the other hurts real people.
Last edited by Custadia on Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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General Knot
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Corporate Police State

Postby General Knot » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:40 pm

Hello old friend(s). You ought to consider stepping away for good. It'll be for the best.
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Wabbitslayah
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Wabbitslayah » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:52 pm

Custadia wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:One word. Predator.


It'd be great if that was the only word needed to sum up what we're talking about here but it's not even close. We're not just talking about illegal scripts used to cheat at R/D, we're talking about people being harassed, exploited, doxxed and threatened. One spoils the game, the other hurts real people.

This^. Serial cheating/rulebreaking or forum/discord/offsite destruction is bad and even one off events need consequences. Those things are on the lighter side (with exceptions) of what puts you on a blacklist (formal or otherwise) regardless of temporary or permanent placement.

The other things are the heavy side.
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Wayneactia
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Wayneactia » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:58 pm

Wabbitslayah wrote:
Custadia wrote:
It'd be great if that was the only word needed to sum up what we're talking about here but it's not even close. We're not just talking about illegal scripts used to cheat at R/D, we're talking about people being harassed, exploited, doxxed and threatened. One spoils the game, the other hurts real people.

This^. Serial cheating/rulebreaking or forum/discord/offsite destruction is bad and even one off events need consequences. Those things are on the lighter side (with exceptions) of what puts you on a blacklist (formal or otherwise) regardless of temporary or permanent placement.

The other things are the heavy side.

Afraid I don't keep up with offsite and discord drama. I try to contain my Nationstates dealings to the actual game.

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Lord Dominator
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Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Sat Jan 11, 2020 11:09 pm

Wayneactia wrote:
Wabbitslayah wrote:This^. Serial cheating/rulebreaking or forum/discord/offsite destruction is bad and even one off events need consequences. Those things are on the lighter side (with exceptions) of what puts you on a blacklist (formal or otherwise) regardless of temporary or permanent placement.

The other things are the heavy side.

Afraid I don't keep up with offsite and discord drama. I try to contain my Nationstates dealings to the actual game.

Probably a good decision

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Tinhampton
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Anarchy

Postby Tinhampton » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:20 am

South Reinkalistan wrote:OOC: Hmmm... a tag:WA telegram? These folks are really going all-out, huh?

Then again, it's probably a move out of desperation and lack of support :p

And now a highly-similar tag:wa telegraph from the same nation, also promoting the White List Campaign, has been sent out (~5mins ago)... sigh!
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Twins of Hearts
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Founded: Nov 07, 2004
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Twins of Hearts » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:25 am

Tinhampton wrote:
South Reinkalistan wrote:OOC: Hmmm... a tag:WA telegram? These folks are really going all-out, huh?

Then again, it's probably a move out of desperation and lack of support :p

And now a highly-similar tag:wa telegraph from the same nation, also promoting the White List Campaign, has been sent out (~5mins ago)... sigh!



Just trying to get the word out.

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Kavagrad
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:41 am

Twins of Hearts wrote:
Tinhampton wrote:And now a highly-similar tag:wa telegraph from the same nation, also promoting the White List Campaign, has been sent out (~5mins ago)... sigh!



Just trying to get the word out.

The word being that you're willing to spend money to try and advocate for the most awful people in GP, coddling them as if they've done nothing wrong and trying to force GP to accept them back into communities that don't want them. It's a waste of time, and frankly, a poor reflection on your judgement.
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South Reinkalistan
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby South Reinkalistan » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:58 am

OOC: Sending lots of telegrams regarding your campaign not many people care about isn't the best way to get your point across FYI
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Twins of Hearts
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Founded: Nov 07, 2004
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Twins of Hearts » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:59 am

Kavagrad wrote:
Twins of Hearts wrote:

Just trying to get the word out.

The word being that you're willing to spend money to try and advocate for the most awful people in GP, coddling them as if they've done nothing wrong and trying to force GP to accept them back into communities that don't want them. It's a waste of time, and frankly, a poor reflection on your judgement.


I am not advocating manipulation or force. You obviously are used to the blacklist and the nations that seem to enjoy it. My dispatch is all about conflict resolution. About solving the problems, not just labelling people and bullying them into silence.

If you dont want someone in your region, then by all means use the game mechanics to kick ban them, or file a GHR if its a “real” rules violation.

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Makdon
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Founded: Nov 14, 2016
Anarchy

Postby Makdon » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:31 am

Twins of Hearts wrote:I am not advocating manipulation or force. You obviously are used to the blacklist and the nations that seem to enjoy it. My dispatch is all about conflict resolution. About solving the problems, not just labelling people and bullying them into silence.

If you dont want someone in your region, then by all means use the game mechanics to kick ban them, or file a GHR if its a “real” rules violation.

Not sure what problems you're solving
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Entendre Cordial
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Founded: Dec 10, 2018
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Entendre Cordial » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:40 pm

From my understanding of the reasons why blacklisted players are blacklisted, treating it as fodder for "conflict resolution" between two good-faith parties is... well, let's return to the "this is just like prison!!!!!1!!11!!1" analogy for a second. Treating it as an opportunity for conflict resolution is like asking a rape victim to attend conflict resolution counseling with his or her rapist. The kindest thing you can say about it is that it's astonishingly tone-deaf and naive. More accurate assessments are also much harsher.

Also, stop spamming my WA's telegrams.

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The Church of Satan
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Founded: Apr 15, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby The Church of Satan » Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:20 pm

See? Cordial here understands it perfectly.
The Rejected Realms: Former Delegate | Former Vice Delegate | Longest Consecutively Serving Officer in TRR History - 824 Days

Chanku: This isn't an election it's an assault on the eyes. | Ikania: Hear! The Gospel of... Satan. Erh...
Yuno: Not gonna yell, but CoS is one of the best delegates ever | Ever-Wandering Souls: In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

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Kavagrad
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Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:30 pm

Twins of Hearts wrote:
Kavagrad wrote:The word being that you're willing to spend money to try and advocate for the most awful people in GP, coddling them as if they've done nothing wrong and trying to force GP to accept them back into communities that don't want them. It's a waste of time, and frankly, a poor reflection on your judgement.


I am not advocating manipulation or force. You obviously are used to the blacklist and the nations that seem to enjoy it. My dispatch is all about conflict resolution. About solving the problems, not just labelling people and bullying them into silence.

If you dont want someone in your region, then by all means use the game mechanics to kick ban them, or file a GHR if its a “real” rules violation.

The only way that the conflict between the sensible side of the NS community and the hackers, harassers, extremist bigots, and fascists that make up the blacklist is going to be "resolved" is by the latter group getting off the site and as far away from our communities as possible. That's the way it should be.
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Twins of Hearts
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 174
Founded: Nov 07, 2004
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Twins of Hearts » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:46 pm

Entendre Cordial wrote:From my understanding of the reasons why blacklisted players are blacklisted, treating it as fodder for "conflict resolution" between two good-faith parties is... well, let's return to the "this is just like prison!!!!!1!!11!!1" analogy for a second. Treating it as an opportunity for conflict resolution is like asking a rape victim to attend conflict resolution counseling with his or her rapist. The kindest thing you can say about it is that it's astonishingly tone-deaf and naive. More accurate assessments are also much harsher.

Also, stop spamming my WA's telegrams.


Equating this with rape is wrong. Enough said there.

The Church of Satan wrote:See? Cordial here understands it perfectly.


Shame on you for agreeing, I assumed you knew better.

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