[SPLIT] Blacklist/Whitelist discussion

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

and only blacklisting people without years of experience would help.

"Years of experience" having any effect on whether someone is blacklisted or not would be real fucking stupid. Blacklisting is about safety - and how many years you've spent haunting NS despite everything has no bearing on whether its safe to accept you in our communities.

[Darkesia]

I must say that the continued efforts to draw in innocent victims into a region which advertises itself as leftist, but is actually a haven for players who gleefully and repeatedly commit OOC offenses, is not something you should be bragging about. And when your victims find themselves ejected from other regions based on their residency in your region, they will perhaps sit up and take note of why this has happened and be warned about your history.

Whether they be innocent, future prey to you or just one of your puppets, they are a danger to the community as they are an extension of you. Your status as a dangerous player does not change because you label yourself a leftist IC.

[Aynia Moreaux]

Everyone has their lists of both good and bad people just like frickin Santa Claus. What matters is which do you believe you are on?

This is wrong. There are no blacklists. The closest thing there are to lists regarding people barred from regions are PNG and proscriptions, which are IC. Those are the only lists people keep.
The "blacklist" is a term used to indicate that a certain player is barred from most regions due to OOC actions. There is no master list, there are no separate lists, there's no list at all.

Idk that I would say there are no blacklists at all, because individual regions tend to have ban lists, there is just no overarching blacklist on ns between regions that I know of.

[Syberis]

So it’s dead. Gotcha my b

Despite your vain attempts to stop the campaign, and your snarky comments, we are steadily progressing through the mire that is gameplay. The USSD is widely "blacklisted" and yet it does not affect how quickly we gain new members, nor their opinion on me or anyone else. It does not stop me from joining regions that would desire me to be far away from them. All it does is affect innocent individuals that want to further implant themselves into the NS community. Even regular USSD citizens are met with the ban-hammer upon joining certain places, which comes as a surprise especially when your region specifically claims to accept all leftists. As I've come to realise though, there are a lot more "blacklisted" players than I've thought, even outside of my region. It's almost like you've "blacklisted" so many people that you've given them a platform on which to stand on, collectively. Maybe being a little more picky, and only blacklisting people without years of experience would help.

Remember, if you are willing to pretend to be someone else to get into regions, perhaps there's a reason people don't want you around.

[Vetelo]

I must say that the continued efforts to draw in innocent victims into a region which advertises itself as leftist, but is actually a haven for players who gleefully and repeatedly commit OOC offenses, is not something you should be bragging about. And when your victims find themselves ejected from other regions based on their residency in your region, they will perhaps sit up and take note of why this has happened and be warned about your history.

Whether they be innocent, future prey to you or just one of your puppets, they are a danger to the community as they are an extension of you. Your status as a dangerous player does not change because you label yourself a leftist IC.

I am not a leftist "IC" I am just a leftist. That goes for all of us. We are not roleplay or pretend leftists, we are a serious leftist community. We do accept like-minded people of other ideologies, but we have zero tolerance for bigotry. The USSD is not a hive of scum and villainy like you portray. No one who has recently created a nation and joined has even had time to commit "OOC" offences, yet you accuse everyone in a blanket statement. The only victims here are the ones that want to broaden their horizons in this game, and are prevented from doing so simply because they want to keep the USSD as their home. People like you sitting in your position of total privilege in the top echelons of a GCR government cannot seem to understand the ramifications of your actions.

[Twins of Hearts]

All I can say is thank you for all the negative commentary: it displays how incredibly flawed and broken the Blacklisting Combine really is. No one, on either side is learning how to live and let live. No one is arguing about regional ability to ban undesirable players from NationStates regions or even discord.

The knee-jerk bans however come from the little gossip channel, listening to one another complain about Nation X sand then deciding, well, Nation Y is well respected, and complaining about Nation X, so I shall ban them also".

While everyone is fond of saying there is no hard list, there really is, as everything is TYPED. SO its SEARCHABLE. On site, and in discord channels.

The Whitelist is both morally superior than shaming and shunning, as well as more applicable to a text based game. With all the wonderful cultures represented here, we should be resolving issues between ourselves, and that is what the Whitelist proposes. Maybe you need to re-read it again if you are confused:

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1303449

I have been told that Whitelist has some other meanings; however I chose the title simply to provide a counterpoint to The Blacklisters and their flawed and simple methodology.

[Boda]

So it’s dead. Gotcha my b

Despite your vain attempts to stop the campaign, and your snarky comments, we are steadily progressing through the mire that is gameplay. The USSD is widely "blacklisted" and yet it does not affect how quickly we gain new members, nor their opinion on me or anyone else. It does not stop me from joining regions that would desire me to be far away from them. All it does is affect innocent individuals that want to further implant themselves into the NS community. Even regular USSD citizens are met with the ban-hammer upon joining certain places, which comes as a surprise especially when your region specifically claims to accept all leftists. As I've come to realise though, there are a lot more "blacklisted" players than I've thought, even outside of my region. It's almost like you've "blacklisted" so many people that you've given them a platform on which to stand on, collectively. Maybe being a little more picky, and only blacklisting people without years of experience would help.

Please stop trying to bait people into breaking the rules on posting defamatory content. We know what you're doing, and it is underhanded and sneaky. This one of the reasons we are opposed to the whitelist, if you have really changed you wouldn't use them.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

All I can say is thank you for all the negative commentary: it displays how incredibly flawed and broken the Blacklisting Combine really is. No one, on either side is learning how to live and let live. No one is arguing about regional ability to ban undesirable players from NationStates regions or even discord.

Why should the victims of abusers, doxxers and harrassers learn to 'live and let live' with the people who wronged them? Why should regional stakeholders let the perpetrators of such actions in their communities? Why shouldn't regional stakeholders inform other regions about the perpetrators of such actions so that they too can protect their communities?

The knee-jerk bans however come from the little gossip channel, listening to one another complain about Nation X sand then deciding, well, Nation Y is well respected, and complaining about Nation X, so I shall ban them also".

You know most regions usually ask for evidence right?

[Xoriet]

All I can say is thank you for all the negative commentary: it displays how incredibly flawed and broken the Blacklisting Combine really is. No one, on either side is learning how to live and let live. No one is arguing about regional ability to ban undesirable players from NationStates regions or even discord.

Why should the victims of abusers, doxxers and harrassers learn to 'live and let live' with the people who wronged them? Why should regional stakeholders let the perpetrators of such actions in their communities? Why shouldn't regional stakeholders inform other regions about the perpetrators of such actions so that they too can protect their communities?

Hahaha. Yeah, good luck with your future if you hide someone's OOC bad behavior from other regions they move to after you ban them. And those people are happy to take advantage of you giving them a chance to stab you in the back later and set you up for blacklisting yourself for giving anyone like that a chance. For example, Block here was just gloating about how he used his status as blacklisted to get his friends removed in an attempt to get himself out of the banned from all decent regions group. None of these people are worth helping or protecting. Our communities come way before their hurt feelings. Some of these people are too dangerous to ever trust around anyone's communities.

[Aynia Moreaux]

I'd ask again, ToH, because you never answered me.

Are you ok with abusers, harassers and doxxers being let loose into any community they want? Do you think it's ok for victims of these people to have to either leave or stay and see them around?

I'd really like to know the answer to this question.

[The Church of Satan]

He'd respond but he knows the players his Whitelist campaign stands for are a public health risk. >_>

[WayNeacTia]

He'd respond but he knows the players his Whitelist campaign stands for are a public health risk. >_>

Block is now a prominent member of St. Abby, so apparently for some unknown reason, people still trust him.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

He'd respond but he knows the players his Whitelist campaign stands for are a public health risk. >_>

Block is now a prominent member of St. Abby, so apparently for some unknown reason, people still trust him.

Stamps, probably. But still, St Abby is ew for harbouring him, even more reason for someone to hit it at some point tbh.

[Diarcesia]

Block is now a prominent member of St. Abby, so apparently for some unknown reason, people still trust him.

Stamps, probably. But still, St Abby is ew for harbouring him, even more reason for someone to hit it at some point tbh.

I think I now see one of the issues with the current blacklisting system. Are we gonna blacklist people by association? Where do we draw the line between safety for the players and weaponizing it for unrelated goals?

[The Church of Satan]

I think I now see one of the issues with the current blacklisting system. Are we gonna blacklist people by association? Where do we draw the line between safety for the players and weaponizing it for unrelated goals?

Are you confusing advocating a raid on a region for harboring Block as that region being blacklisted? Because that's not how blacklisting works. People advocate for many regions to be raided for almost the first reason that comes to mind. It doesn't mean that region is being blacklisted.

[Diarcesia]

I think I now see one of the issues with the current blacklisting system. Are we gonna blacklist people by association? Where do we draw the line between safety for the players and weaponizing it for unrelated goals?

Are you confusing advocating a raid on a region for harboring Block as that region being blacklisted? Because that's not how blacklisting works. People advocate for many regions to be raided for almost the first reason that comes to mind. It doesn't mean that region is being blacklisted.

I did confuse them.

[Twins of Hearts]

I'd ask again, ToH, because you never answered me.

Are you ok with abusers, harassers and doxxers being let loose into any community they want? Do you think it's ok for victims of these people to have to either leave or stay and see them around?

I'd really like to know the answer to this question.

No, since those types of people would be breaking rules on the site, they should be reported to moderation. I have answered these rules questions a dozen times by now.

He'd respond but he knows the players his Whitelist campaign stands for are a public health risk. >_>

Ew. I wouldn't know anything about anyone on sites public health status. Apparently you seem to have a deeper knowledge than I on the topic.

Stamps, probably. But still, St Abby is ew for harbouring him, even more reason for someone to hit it at some point tbh.

I think I now see one of the issues with the current blacklisting system. Are we gonna blacklist people by association? Where do we draw the line between safety for the players and weaponizing it for unrelated goals?

They do this regularly. The intimidation, bullying and threats go through tg, dm and little comments like these here against St. Abby. This is the cringe, unnecessary toxicity, gaze upon its passive aggressive glory!

Are you confusing advocating a raid on a region for harboring Block as that region being blacklisted? Because that's not how blacklisting works. People advocate for many regions to be raided for almost the first reason that comes to mind. It doesn't mean that region is being blacklisted.

I did confuse them.

No, you were right! Do not let the mob influence you, allow logic to win the day.

Then you will have the answer why th current system of blacklisters need to be replaced ith simple, existant rules, and q conflict resolution model like The Whitelist Campaign.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

I'd ask again, ToH, because you never answered me.

Are you ok with abusers, harassers and doxxers being let loose into any community they want? Do you think it's ok for victims of these people to have to either leave or stay and see them around?

I'd really like to know the answer to this question.

No, since those types of people would be breaking rules on the site

As you well know, many of these players do not break those rules on site, but do it offsite.

[Catsfern]

So I just checked the rating on the original dispatch that started this all, and yeah its currently at -82. I don't think the public supports this campaign ToH

[WayNeacTia]

So I just checked the rating on the original dispatch that started this all, and yeah its currently at -82. I don't think the public supports this campaign ToH

Athletes foot has a better chance of being cured, than this ever had of succeeding.

[Wabbitslayah]

Despite your vain attempts to stop the campaign, and your snarky comments, we are steadily progressing through the mire that is gameplay. The USSD is widely "blacklisted" and yet it does not affect how quickly we gain new members, nor their opinion on me or anyone else. It does not stop me from joining regions that would desire me to be far away from them. All it does is affect innocent individuals that want to further implant themselves into the NS community. Even regular USSD citizens are met with the ban-hammer upon joining certain places, which comes as a surprise especially when your region specifically claims to accept all leftists. As I've come to realise though, there are a lot more "blacklisted" players than I've thought, even outside of my region. It's almost like you've "blacklisted" so many people that you've given them a platform on which to stand on, collectively. Maybe being a little more picky, and only blacklisting people without years of experience would help.

Please stop trying to bait people into breaking the rules on posting defamatory content. We know what you're doing, and it is underhanded and sneaky. This one of the reasons we are opposed to the whitelist, if you have really changed you wouldn't use them.

I don't see that happening here,but you should report flamebaiting and trolling in the Moderation forum rather than here.

[Vetelo]

Despite your vain attempts to stop the campaign, and your snarky comments, we are steadily progressing through the mire that is gameplay. The USSD is widely "blacklisted" and yet it does not affect how quickly we gain new members, nor their opinion on me or anyone else. It does not stop me from joining regions that would desire me to be far away from them. All it does is affect innocent individuals that want to further implant themselves into the NS community. Even regular USSD citizens are met with the ban-hammer upon joining certain places, which comes as a surprise especially when your region specifically claims to accept all leftists. As I've come to realise though, there are a lot more "blacklisted" players than I've thought, even outside of my region. It's almost like you've "blacklisted" so many people that you've given them a platform on which to stand on, collectively. Maybe being a little more picky, and only blacklisting people without years of experience would help.

Please stop trying to bait people into breaking the rules on posting defamatory content. We know what you're doing, and it is underhanded and sneaky. This one of the reasons we are opposed to the whitelist, if you have really changed you wouldn't use them.

I genuinely wouldn't have thought for a second what I said would be considered flame-baiting. It is just my point of view on the subject. If you believe I am breaking the rules, then I refer you to the moderation forum.

[Tim-Opolis]

Block is now a prominent member of St. Abby, so apparently for some unknown reason, people still trust him.

Stamps, probably. But still, St Abby is ew for harbouring him, even more reason for someone to hit it at some point tbh.

Even less reason to defend it as well, while they keep him around.

[Dragonisia]

Greetings from St. Abbaddon's Council of Elders,

I've known for a time thanks to the links I have through the community that Brother Bishop may have been an alias of Block, but only recently has this been confirmed by both other parties and himself.

We do not engage in blacklists or ban lists. "Brother Bishop" as he is currently called, has not done anything in violation of our regional policy, has acknowledged his past wrongs, confessed his identity to us. We will not be exiling him until we have some evidence he has engaged in some form of recent activity which constitutes a threat to Abbaddon or another region.

That said, if you have something to indicate that he is currently a problem, we are open to its disclosure at any time. Let him be, and he should be leaving everyone else be. Let us know if he isn't. We're giving him a second chance, which will be his only chance, to be on good behavior. Thus far, under his current identity, he has only served to help our region and be kind to its members.

I've hear that he has been possibly causing some issues on some discords, my answer to that, is simply ban him. If the activity is in game, please make us aware of the situation and we will act on it accordingly. We are not going to give safe-harbour to an active and dangerous entity, but we're not going to forcibly remove someone who has caused us no harm either. I think our stance is a fair one.

Respectfully,
Maelstrom
Chief Elder of St. Abbadon

PS. I cannot be bought and do not care for stamps. We've not had a recruitment tele in ages and we're just fine so you can kill those conspiracy theories with that.

[WayNeacTia]

Is this the NPO stance on Block as well? Either way, when this blows up in your face and it inevitably will, don't say you weren't warned.