[SPLIT] Blacklist/Whitelist discussion

[WayNeacTia]

There really should be some kind of list or diagram drawn up where it lists common offenses agreed by a majority of people, which would warrant somebody being put on this "blacklist." One-time comments and errant actions limited to the game don't warrant "blacklisting" as much as things like predatory behavior or hacking, in my opinion.

Do you need a diagram to tell you if someone has pissed you off or hurt you, and you no longer want to ever speak with them again? For the last time, there is no official fucking blacklist. It is the personal decisions of individuals not to associate with people. If a regional government declares a person personae non grata then they are blacklisted. There is no secret formula. There is no conspiracy. What there is a a pitiful attention grab by DC and Block, and that is all this thread is. Why it has been allowed to continue this long is beyond me.

[Lord Dominator]

Literally how has this thread gone on for eight pages? Do y'all have nothing better to do than engage with blacklisted players looking for attention?

Not really, no

[The Church of Satan]

If a regional government declares a person personae non grata then they are blacklisted.

That's not necessarily true. I was PNG in Balder for a while but I wasn't blacklisted because it was purely political. Sure I'm basically still PNG there because my region is proscribed, but I'm not blacklisted.

[WayNeacTia]

If a regional government declares a person personae non grata then they are blacklisted.

That's not necessarily true. I was PNG in Balder for a while but I wasn't blacklisted because it was purely political. Sure I'm basically still PNG there because my region is proscribed, but I'm not blacklisted.

There are naturally exceptions to every rule. I was trying to explain it in layman's terms.

[Honeydewistania]

If a regional government declares a person personae non grata then they are blacklisted.

That's not necessarily true. I was PNG in Balder for a while but I wasn't blacklisted because it was purely political. Sure I'm basically still PNG there because my region is proscribed, but I'm not blacklisted.

You could say you were on balder’s blacklist, but not every region adopted it

[The Church of Satan]

You could say you were on balder’s blacklist, but not every region adopted it

Nope. My region is proscribed in Balder because of a longstanding military and political rivalry dating back...somewhere around a decade. Although the war between defenders and imperialists has been over and dead for a few years now, despite what Fratt and Onder might say, heh. Especially given the fact that the imperialist sphere is quite docile these days.

[Tiesa]

I'm a nobody in this community, but if I may, I'd just like to throw in my own two cents. I've met a lot of incredibly toxic individuals during my ten years on this game; many of whom I personally doubt I could ever be persuaded to give a second chance. Consequently, if a region or network of regions wishes to maintain a so-called "blacklist", as far as I'm concerned, that's entirely their prerogative.

However, what I think is incredibly unfair is to deny members of your region the right to associate with these individuals and to draw conclusions for themselves, lest they be threatened with expulsion and similar persona non grata status. This is the position I've now found myself in, and I think it's a perspective worth considering in this whole debate. "Blacklisting" does not exclusively impact past offenders.

[Vaculatestar64]

With the exception of a few forum posts on here, I've basically been pretty quiet, not bothering anyone or causing any trouble since I came back several months ago. Helping one friend with an ultimately failed project, and now helping another with what looks to be a potentially successful project. Perhaps that's the better route to go, rather than forcing your way in with some agreement, just put your money where your mouth is and prove your change. I'm not stupid, even if they won't admit it and openly deny it, the blacklisters maintain an intelligence presence in The Empire of Russia, likely under the guise of watching me and others for the sake of the community we run. However unfortunately for their intelligence agents, they don't have any negative behavior to report unless they are totally bullshitting. Perhaps, for the individuals promoting this idea, that's the route they should take rather than throwing a temper tantrum on NSGP.

[Xoriet]

Perhaps, for the individuals promoting this idea, that's the route they should take rather than throwing a temper tantrum on NSGP.

The only temper tantrums thrown so far have been Block's, but that's nothing new. Everyone else just shoots it down because it's dangerous. Whoever came up with the idea that the people I think of when I think of those I will never again welcome into any community of mine as influential in the right circles and stand as political threats is positively droll. Some of these players are minor compared to others, but it is the others whom I consider in this situation. I have seen too much harm come to the community in these past years to take a risk because a few unwelcome people have their feelings hurt.

The notion that any of them were ever of note in directing the future of NSGP as a whole is absurd and abjectly demonstrative of self-deception facilitated by grouping together and discussing why they could possibly be considered unsuitable for our communities. Even the alternate NSGP Discord Block and friends made is only of note to anyone because of genuine concern for the people caught unawares in this situation who join totally this uncontrolled community of blacklisted people with whom they are now interacting. Their safety is of more interest than the proclamations of innocence by any of the blacklisted players as they claim they have been unjustly wronged.

[Vaculatestar64]

Perhaps, for the individuals promoting this idea, that's the route they should take rather than throwing a temper tantrum on NSGP.

The only temper tantrums thrown so far have been Block's, but that's nothing new. Everyone else just shoots it down because it's dangerous. Whoever came up with the idea that the people I think of when I think of those I will never again welcome into any community of mine as influential in the right circles and stand as political threats is positively droll. Some of these players are minor compared to others, but it is the others whom I consider in this situation. I have seen too much harm come to the community in these past years to take a risk because a few unwelcome people have their feelings hurt.

The notion that any of them were ever of note in directing the future of NSGP as a whole is absurd and abjectly demonstrative of self-deception facilitated by grouping together and discussing why they could possibly be considered unsuitable for our communities. Even the alternate NSGP Discord Block and friends made is only of note to anyone because of genuine concern for the people caught unawares in this situation who join totally this uncontrolled community of blacklisted people with whom they are now interacting. Their safety is of more interest than the proclamations of innocence by any of the blacklisted players as they claim they have been unjustly wronged.

I was attempting to be broad rather than call individuals out by name.

[Xoriet]

I was attempting to be broad rather than call individuals out by name.

I'm not as generous.

[Vaculatestar64]

I was attempting to be broad rather than call individuals out by name.

I'm not as generous.

I'm aware lol.

On another note, if anyone is truly interested in the Vac of 2019/2020 versus the Vac of 2017/2018 all the way back to when I joined in 2011/2012 hang out in Russia, feel free to even join. I'm sure you'll be surprised. If your prejudices keep you from doing that I fully understand, maybe one of these days we can cross paths and have a heart to heart talk and any bad feelings by all parties can be atoned for and handled.

Edit: Massive mistype.

[Kaystein]

There really should be some kind of list or diagram drawn up where it lists common offenses agreed by a majority of people, which would warrant somebody being put on this "blacklist." One-time comments and errant actions limited to the game don't warrant "blacklisting" as much as things like predatory behavior or hacking, in my opinion.

Do you need a diagram to tell you if someone has pissed you off or hurt you, and you no longer want to ever speak with them again? For the last time, there is no official fucking blacklist. It is the personal decisions of individuals not to associate with people. If a regional government declares a person personae non grata then they are blacklisted. There is no secret formula. There is no conspiracy. What there is a a pitiful attention grab by DC and Block, and that is all this thread is. Why it has been allowed to continue this long is beyond me.

Maybe there should be.. I would find value in knowing if somebody is capable of destroying my discord server. A watchlist for serious offenses committed off-site would help separate actual dangers to a community from somebody "blacklisted" for offending or angering another person with a comment. Maybe it could be moderator-sanctioned so there's no cause for defamation, with a brief process to overlook offsite evidence. The person may not be banned from the game, but people could be made aware of their wrongdoing. It could venerate people wrongly accused as well, preventing defamation that way too.

As for what you describe, that's called a "shit list". I have a lot of fellows on my shit list.

[Kavagrad]

Do you need a diagram to tell you if someone has pissed you off or hurt you, and you no longer want to ever speak with them again? For the last time, there is no official fucking blacklist. It is the personal decisions of individuals not to associate with people. If a regional government declares a person personae non grata then they are blacklisted. There is no secret formula. There is no conspiracy. What there is a a pitiful attention grab by DC and Block, and that is all this thread is. Why it has been allowed to continue this long is beyond me.

Maybe there should be.. I would find value in knowing if somebody is capable of destroying my discord server. A watchlist for serious offenses committed off-site would help separate actual dangers to a community from somebody "blacklisted" for offending or angering another person with a comment. Maybe it could be moderator-sanctioned so there's no cause for defamation, with a brief process to overlook offsite evidence. The person may not be banned from the game, but people could be made aware of their wrongdoing. It could venerate people wrongly accused as well, preventing defamation that way too.

As for what you describe, that's called a "shit list". I have a lot of fellows on my shit list.

The moderators won't judge offsite evidence unless it's for serious IRL offences, and will punish the creators of any onsite list that specifies what blacklisted players have done, so your idea unfortunately falls flat immediately. This system is not the first preference for anyone using it, but the rules within which we have to work means that the blacklisting system is the best that we can have. The mods have their reasons to put these rules into place, and we have to respect that, but this is the result.

In other news, I've had to throw a user out of TLA's Discord after discovering that they were a blacklisted player (one that has been chatting a lot of shit on this thread, if that's any hint) sneaking in to advertise their "alternative" NSGP server both in our server and in others. These people will never act in good faith, this is further evidence of that fact. Do not trust them.

[Draganisia]

Ok this conversation has been going on for quite some time with a bunch of stuff back and forth so now it is time for my 2 cents.

Do Blacklists exist? The answer is Yes.

Everyone has their own lists for those they don't like and wouldn't want in their regions and clans based on stuff they have done in the past.

Based on that I know I am probably on whatever list the fricken Black Hawks and others have simply because of how much I hate raiders.

Having said that I don't believe there is a master blacklist that all major regions follow. Everyone has their own separate lists instead.

However is it still possible for someone to be on all of those different blacklists? I believe that depending on what that person did the answer for that is also Yes.

So if it really seems like everyone else is against you Yes it is possible that they are but that doesn't mean there is one big blacklist that everyone follows.

Everyone has their lists of both good and bad people just like frickin Santa Claus. What matters is which do you believe you are on?

[Aynia Moreaux]

I think it's pretty common for individual regions to have their own blacklist/png list. I think the falsehood comes when people think there's some all powerful interconnected blacklist that everyone follows, and there just isn't one. We in Caer Sidi have our own blacklist of players who are banned from our region for good reason. Things like nazi rhetoric, sexism, racism, and predatory behaviour just off the top of my head.

I think it really just comes down to: Don't be a dick.

Like if you follow that rule and be nice to people, you're golden. You take it too far, you get cast out, period, end of story, too bad so sad.

[Bowzin]

Ok this conversation has been going on for quite some time with a bunch of stuff back and forth so now it is time for my 2 cents.

Do Blacklists exist? The answer is Yes.

Everyone has their own lists for those they don't like and wouldn't want in their regions and clans based on stuff they have done in the past.

Based on that I know I am probably on whatever list the fricken Black Hawks and others have simply because of how much I hate raiders.

Having said that I don't believe there is a master blacklist that all major regions follow. Everyone has their own separate lists instead.

However is it still possible for someone to be on all of those different blacklists? I believe that depending on what that person did the answer for that is also Yes.

So if it really seems like everyone else is against you Yes it is possible that they are but that doesn't mean there is one big blacklist that everyone follows.

Everyone has their lists of both good and bad people just like frickin Santa Claus. What matters is which do you believe you are on?

This is wrong. There are no blacklists. The closest thing there are to lists regarding people barred from regions are PNG and proscriptions, which are IC. Those are the only lists people keep.
The "blacklist" is a term used to indicate that a certain player is barred from most regions due to OOC actions. There is no master list, there are no separate lists, there's no list at all.

[Diarcesia]

Ok this conversation has been going on for quite some time with a bunch of stuff back and forth so now it is time for my 2 cents.

Do Blacklists exist? The answer is Yes.

Everyone has their own lists for those they don't like and wouldn't want in their regions and clans based on stuff they have done in the past.

Based on that I know I am probably on whatever list the fricken Black Hawks and others have simply because of how much I hate raiders.

Having said that I don't believe there is a master blacklist that all major regions follow. Everyone has their own separate lists instead.

However is it still possible for someone to be on all of those different blacklists? I believe that depending on what that person did the answer for that is also Yes.

So if it really seems like everyone else is against you Yes it is possible that they are but that doesn't mean there is one big blacklist that everyone follows.

Everyone has their lists of both good and bad people just like frickin Santa Claus. What matters is which do you believe you are on?

This is wrong. There are no blacklists. The closest thing there are to lists regarding people barred from regions are PNG and proscriptions, which are IC. Those are the only lists people keep.
The "blacklist" is a term used to indicate that a certain player is barred from most regions due to OOC actions. There is no master list, there are no separate lists, there's no list at all.

You gotta put the PNG on a list somehow though.

[Syberis]

This is wrong. There are no blacklists. The closest thing there are to lists regarding people barred from regions are PNG and proscriptions, which are IC. Those are the only lists people keep.
The "blacklist" is a term used to indicate that a certain player is barred from most regions due to OOC actions. There is no master list, there are no separate lists, there's no list at all.

You gotta put the PNG on a list somehow though.

PNGs are generally an IC response. OOC offenses generally just get people put on the control panel's banlist.

[Angshire]

What if
Instead of blacklisting and whitelisting
We had greylisting

[Makdon]

What if
Instead of blacklisting and whitelisting
We had greylisting

Compromise!

[Catsfern]

Its been a little while since I'v seen anything from OP, hopefully that means the campaign is dead now.

[Twins of Hearts]

Its been a little while since I'v seen anything from OP, hopefully that means the campaign is dead now.

The Whitelist Campaign is not dead, I just have not been asked a question or had a comment directed at me worth responding to in....several days.

[Boda]

Its been a little while since I'v seen anything from OP, hopefully that means the campaign is dead now.

The Whitelist Campaign is not dead, I just have not been asked a question or had a comment directed at me worth responding to in....several days.

So it’s dead. Gotcha my b

[Vetelo]

The Whitelist Campaign is not dead, I just have not been asked a question or had a comment directed at me worth responding to in....several days.

So it’s dead. Gotcha my b

Despite your vain attempts to stop the campaign, and your snarky comments, we are steadily progressing through the mire that is gameplay. The USSD is widely "blacklisted" and yet it does not affect how quickly we gain new members, nor their opinion on me or anyone else. It does not stop me from joining regions that would desire me to be far away from them. All it does is affect innocent individuals that want to further implant themselves into the NS community. Even regular USSD citizens are met with the ban-hammer upon joining certain places, which comes as a surprise especially when your region specifically claims to accept all leftists. As I've come to realise though, there are a lot more "blacklisted" players than I've thought, even outside of my region. It's almost like you've "blacklisted" so many people that you've given them a platform on which to stand on, collectively. Maybe being a little more picky, and only blacklisting people without years of experience would help.