[SPLIT] Blacklist/Whitelist discussion

[South Reinkalistan]

They didn't equate them with one another. It was an analogy. It illustrated the similarities in how "conflict resolution" would affect the victims. I assumed you knew better.

Owning your wrong would have been as sign of some maturity.

However the backstroke while pointing at me....eh. Not so much.

OOC: Ah, I see.

Well I'll be watching with popcorn. Having heard of some of Twins of Heart's past, I'm a helluva lot more sceptical about this campaign.

What you may or may not have heard about me is not relevant, as I and anyone I interacted with in this situation that keeps getting mentioned resolved our conflicts ourselves a good long time ago. This is not about me, rather about the practice of blacklisting and finding a better solution. The entrenchment and crystalized power structure behind the blacklist however, which to remind everyone that I am imperfect. A glaringly obvious statement, given that all of us are imperfect.

Staying focused on the positive, and moving the game in a positive direction is the focus of the whitelist campaign!

OOC: Forcing people to 'play nice' and be friends with others who they evidently don't like hardly sounds like moving the game in a positive direction.

What I've heard about you wasn't great stuff, to be honest. I feel it is relevant because that reflects on you as a person, and when you start pushing a narrative that CONVENIENTLY seems to align with advancing your personal position (through the means of 2 WA telegrams, no less) people such as me start to get sceptical. I've only received one side of the story, but it still doesn't reflect well on your campaign as a whole.

For the record, I wholeheartedly agree with Katganistan. Nobody likes being forced to associate with people they dislike. This just seems like a 'virtuous' attempt to get back at old grudges and perceived misjustice under the guise of an anti-bullying crusade.

[The Church of Satan]

This is not about me, rather about the practice of blacklisting and finding a better solution. The entrenchment and crystallized power structure behind the blacklist however, which to remind everyone that I am imperfect. A glaringly obvious statement, given that all of us are imperfect.

Where in the world are you getting this notion that there's a power structure behind it!? What part of protecting our communities do you not understand? What drugs are you on? How strong are they? How high is your dosage?

EDIT: btw those two telegrams about it, that's what, somewhere over $50 to have enough stamps for the entire World Assembly? Great Joco's ghost!

[Boda]

That whitelist aint happening chief.

[Libertys Misrule]

I hope this doesn't end like Conquerus' apology thread.

[Vetelo]

The only way that the conflict between the sensible side of the NS community and the hackers, harassers, extremist bigots, and fascists that make up the blacklist is going to be "resolved" is by the latter group getting off the site and as far away from our communities as possible. That's the way it should be.

Not everyone on the blacklist is a bigot, a forum destroyer, or a fascist, this is just what you say to make yourself feel better about it. People such as myself are only still "blacklisted" because I am generally disliked by the gameplay community. It does not make sense that you would continue to "blacklist" someone when the reason you've "blacklisted" them was from years ago. People change over multiple years. But GP has nothing better to do than to recall the same old shit time after time.

[The Blaatschapen]

Just an observation: no one is obliged to associate with anyone they do not wish to associate with.

And when I've previously associated with somebody that I no longer wish to be associated with, but there are financial assets, etc. in dispute, then my associates will be in touch.

[WayNeacTia]

Just an observation: no one is obliged to associate with anyone they do not wish to associate with.

If only things were that simple Kat.

[Darkesia]

But it is simple. Perhaps not always easy. But certainly simple.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

There was a blacklist, but I defeated everyone on it. Needed to get my car back from Razor.

[WayNeacTia]

But it is simple. Perhaps not always easy. But certainly simple.

For some people yes. Not so much for me. I have this curse, that no matter how bad someone is, and no matter how much they hurt me, I will always try to see the good in them and often keep giving them chances, upon chances. So like I said, it isn't that simple.

[Kavagrad]

The only way that the conflict between the sensible side of the NS community and the hackers, harassers, extremist bigots, and fascists that make up the blacklist is going to be "resolved" is by the latter group getting off the site and as far away from our communities as possible. That's the way it should be.

Not everyone on the blacklist is a bigot, a forum destroyer, or a fascist, this is just what you say to make yourself feel better about it. People such as myself are only still "blacklisted" because I am generally disliked by the gameplay community. It does not make sense that you would continue to "blacklist" someone when the reason you've "blacklisted" them was from years ago. People change over multiple years. But GP has nothing better to do than to recall the same old shit time after time.

Given the torrent of insults you threw my way on Discord last time we spoke, you're not exactly the right person to convince me that blacklisted players like you don't deserve exactly what they get.

[The Church of Satan]

For some people yes. Not so much for me. I have this curse, that no matter how bad someone is, and no matter how much they hurt me, I will always try to see the good in them and often keep giving them chances, upon chances. So like I said, it isn't that simple.

I was like that once! Until I gave the wrong person a few extra chances.

[Achievementland]

I believe it should be up to the region how to moderate

[Lord Dominator]

The only way that the conflict between the sensible side of the NS community and the hackers, harassers, extremist bigots, and fascists that make up the blacklist is going to be "resolved" is by the latter group getting off the site and as far away from our communities as possible. That's the way it should be.

People such as myself are only still "blacklisted" because I am generally disliked by the gameplay community.

If that was all it took, then people like Cormac & Glen would've been blacklisted ages ago.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

What I'm learning from this topic is that blacklisted players collectively have a wonderful ability to edit themselves to look better in their own heads than in reality. I wonder why...

[Boda]

The only way that the conflict between the sensible side of the NS community and the hackers, harassers, extremist bigots, and fascists that make up the blacklist is going to be "resolved" is by the latter group getting off the site and as far away from our communities as possible. That's the way it should be.

Not everyone on the blacklist is a bigot, a forum destroyer, or a fascist, this is just what you say to make yourself feel better about it. People such as myself are only still "blacklisted" because I am generally disliked by the gameplay community. It does not make sense that you would continue to "blacklist" someone when the reason you've "blacklisted" them was from years ago. People change over multiple years. But GP has nothing better to do than to recall the same old shit time after time.

We have the memory of an elephant, meaning we won't forget about your toxic behavior easily.

[Entendre Cordial]

What I'm learning from this topic is that blacklisted players collectively have a wonderful ability to edit themselves to look better in their own heads than in reality. I wonder why...

"The opinion which we entertain of our own character depends entirely on our judgments concerning our past conduct. It is so disagreeable to think ill of ourselves, that we often purposely turn away our view from those circumstances which might render that judgment unfavourable. He is a bold surgeon, they say, whose hand does not tremble when he performs an operation upon his own person; and he is often equally bold who does not hesitate to pull off the mysterious veil of self-delusion, which covers from his view the deformities of his own conduct. Rather than see our own behaviour under so disagreeable an aspect, we too often, foolishly and weakly, endeavour to exasperate anew those unjust passions which had formerly misled us; we endeavour by artifice to awaken our old hatreds, and irritate afresh our almost forgotten resentments: we even exert ourselves for this miserable purpose, and thus persevere in injustice, merely because we once were unjust, and because we are ashamed and afraid to see that we were so. …

"This self-deceit, this fatal weakness of mankind, is the source of half the disorders of human life. If we saw ourselves in the light in which others see us, or in which they would see us if they knew all, a reformation would generally be unavoidable. We could not otherwise endure the sight."

---

They didn't equate them with one another. It was an analogy. It illustrated the similarities in how "conflict resolution" would affect the victims. I assumed you knew better.

Owning your wrong would have been as sign of some maturity...

CoS was not, in fact, wrong. You might try taking your own advice.

[Catsfern]

I don't get involves in the whole NS community very much, but I have a bit of a peace to speak about this.

I have no faith in the Whitelist Campaign. The entire campaign exists to re-integrate people who have been blacklisted, but if people already blacklisted someone A. there's probably a good reason and B. people probably don't want to have someone that's been black listed re-integrated.
I'm sure there are some people that have been unfairly ostracized, but the vast majority deserve what they got.

Also i'd like to address step 3

Step Three: Mediation. Instead of presenting "evidence" citing spin doctored "examples", both sides need to express their goals and work toward them.

specifically this

Instead of presenting "evidence" citing spin doctored "examples"

so you don't want us to present evidence, what if its evidence that supports the claims of someone who's been black listed is it fine then? Evidence is extremely important in these sorts of situations, that's why real life courts rely on it to make rulings.

and a bit of a suggestion. If you really think people are being unfairly blacklisted and that there's a problem, maybe just make your own region as a sort of refuge and invite anyone who's been blacklisted there.

Finally and most importantly DON'T SEND ME TWO DIFFERENT TELEGRAMS ABOUT A CAMPAIGN THAT I DON'T CARE ABOUT

[Lamoni]

This is not about me, rather about the practice of blacklisting and finding a better solution. The entrenchment and crystallized power structure behind the blacklist however, which to remind everyone that I am imperfect. A glaringly obvious statement, given that all of us are imperfect.

Where in the world are you getting this notion that there's a power structure behind it!? What part of protecting our communities do you not understand? What drugs are you on? How strong are they? How high is your dosage?

EDIT: btw those two telegrams about it, that's what, somewhere over $50 to have enough stamps for the entire World Assembly? Great Joco's ghost!

Unofficial warning for flamebaiting, due to the drug questions. The rest of the post is fine.

[The Church of Satan]

Unofficial warning for flamebaiting, due to the drug questions. The rest of the post is fine.

Awww, I was just illustrating the absurdity of it....but okay.

[Wabbitslayah]

Not everyone on the blacklist is a bigot, a forum destroyer, or a fascist, this is just what you say to make yourself feel better about it. People such as myself are only still "blacklisted" because I am generally disliked by the gameplay community. It does not make sense that you would continue to "blacklist" someone when the reason you've "blacklisted" them was from years ago. People change over multiple years. But GP has nothing better to do than to recall the same old shit time after time.

We have the memory of an elephant, meaning we won't forget about your toxic behavior easily.

Do you even know any of these people, or any of their history aside from the snippets that get posted in this forum?

[Boda]

We have the memory of an elephant, meaning we won't forget about your toxic behavior easily.

Do you even know any of these people, or any of their history aside from the snippets that get posted in this forum?

I do.

[Vetelo]

Do you even know any of these people, or any of their history aside from the snippets that get posted in this forum?

I do.

Sure you do, buddy.

[Ikania]

This whole “white list” project seems blatantly obvious to me as an attempt by disgraced gameplayers (Drunken Conquerors) to rehabilitate their legacy and rewrite the events of the last few years to make it seem like there was some kind of moral equivalence between them and the people who threw them out. Not only is this revisionist, it is dangerous.

It’s telling that Drunken Conquerors is heading this pity parade, and abundantly more so that it’s backed by 94 Block and Vetelo, two perfect case studies of players who can’t accept that their brand is permanently tarnished by no one’s actions except their own.

In my years as a gameplayer, I was exposed to a lot of people who might currently be considered blacklisted. Not one of them do I believe doesn’t deserve that status, because the things I have seen them do to other people through the internet are truly despicable. I’ve seen more than my fair share of psychological manipulation and abuse from NSers, of all reputations and levels of influence. I’ve been a victim of it, and I’m sure at points either a perpetrator or an accomplice. Looking back, I’m amazed at the level of cruelty that can be dealt through something as simple as a browser game.

It’s funny that Vetelo thinks he’s “blacklisted” because GP just doesn’t like him. I can think of quite a few examples of things he said and did over the course of years that clearly crossed the line. Ironically, the fact that I can’t mention them on this forum is itself proof of that. And we gave him all the chances in the world- so we did with Block, so we did with DC, et cetera. And every chance was squandered, without exception. Every good faith offer of a second chance eventually blown, and then they complain that they were never given that second chance. Except you were. You just want gameplay to conveniently forget; because 2016-17 was a long time ago, right? There’s a whole new generation of NSers that’s sprung up since then who are more willing to believe you were just misunderstood, because they weren’t actually there. Well, I was.

And unlike some of the people trying to get “whitelisted” and maintain their relevance in this game (in decline for years now), I knew when this game wasn’t good for me, and I knew when to just leave. And I’m not even blacklisted! They’ll occasionally make a forum post for attention, often expressing regret and an intention to start again, followed by snark and defiance posited against anyone who raises very valid questions on the credibility of those apologies. Even in this thread. And now, when the collective memory of GP has faded, they can worm their way back into relevance, exploit the ignorance of the new crowds, and paint themselves as the victim.

DC, you know damn well why the community doesn’t consider you welcome anymore. Same goes for Block, Attero, et al. You know. We haven’t forgotten. Just because it’s been a few years and “this time I really mean it!!!” doesn’t mean you’ve at all proven why you deserve yet another chance. The general hostility and bickering you’ve immediately devolved into, this snide aura of superiority over the people who remember how you acted and are confronting you, acts as evidence of that. Just because the Skype logs are old and hard to find, or the Discord convos are deleted, doesn’t erase the things you did, which we can’t talk about here.

I hope I haven’t wasted my time writing this. None of the people I’ve directly called out have ever displayed a serious feeling of remorse or intent to repair the harm they’ve done. They only ever want to redeem themselves through deception: rehabilitate their legacy, convince some of the noobs that they’re right and hope everyone else just forgets. It’s on us, as gameplayers, to actively ensure that this will never happen. To protect our community from abusers, cheaters, and other toxic elements. It’s the job of the people who were there, and I see many around today, to make sure we don’t collectively forget who once hurt us, because if we don’t, people are going to get hurt again.

Now I’m going to sink back into my corner of irrelevancy, and hope this has got you all thinking. Ciao.

[Dulkata]

This topic is just embarrassing. I haven't lurked NS in ages and the first thing I see is this non-sense. People that are blacklisted are done so for good reason. I was blacklisted nearly 10 years ago for being a racist harasser (back even before skype. I did most my nasty deeds via irc and off-site forums). I attempted to dox people, went on racist rants, and was all around a bad actor. Even though I was never anyone important or known (I was a member of a small region and went postal after my region was tagged) I still could never return. I'm glad the community will keep people like me out. I don't deserve redemption because, what I did was not acceptable and should never be acceptable. You BL player's had your chance but, you broke the rule's and act surprised the community don't want you back. Shameful. Just take the loss and leave. You'll never be able to reflect and improve as a person if you still frequent this place and refuse to accept your punishment.