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[SPLIT] Blacklist/Whitelist discussion

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Kaboomlandia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7395
Founded: May 22, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Kaboomlandia » Sun Jan 12, 2020 5:55 pm

Twins of Hearts, I don't think you've actually done any research at all into why these players were "blacklisted" in the first place. Hint: they weren't. They were rightfully kicked out because of their own actions. There's no grudges here.
In=character, Kaboomlandia is a World Assembly member and abides by its resolutions. If this nation isn't in the WA, it's for practical reasons.
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Tim-Opolis
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Founded: Feb 17, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Tim-Opolis » Sun Jan 12, 2020 8:59 pm

My favorite part of all this is honestly the fact that Drunken Conquerors is wasting so much time and energy on something that will ultimately accomplish nothing. I would reference “All that for a drop of blood” from Thanos, but not even that has been accomplished.

Please, go ahead and keep going though, it’s good to have something to criticize that we can all collectively conclude is an absolute farce.
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Wayneactia
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Founded: Aug 01, 2014
New York Times Democracy

Postby Wayneactia » Sun Jan 12, 2020 9:39 pm

Twins of Hearts wrote:
Kavagrad wrote:The word being that you're willing to spend money to try and advocate for the most awful people in GP, coddling them as if they've done nothing wrong and trying to force GP to accept them back into communities that don't want them. It's a waste of time, and frankly, a poor reflection on your judgement.


I am not advocating manipulation or force. You obviously are used to the blacklist and the nations that seem to enjoy it. My dispatch is all about conflict resolution. About solving the problems, not just labelling people and bullying them into silence.

If you dont want someone in your region, then by all means use the game mechanics to kick ban them, or file a GHR if its a “real” rules violation.

You can send telegrams and shout from your soapbox until you are blue in the face. It has been said before THERE IS NO BLACKLIST! I really don't know what you are hoping to accomplish with any of this, other than living out some fantasy and spamming people.

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The Church of Satan
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Posts: 1312
Founded: Apr 15, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby The Church of Satan » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:40 am

Twins of Hearts wrote:Equating this with rape is wrong. Enough said there.
Shame on you for agreeing, I assumed you knew better.

They didn't equate them with one another. It was an analogy. It illustrated the similarities in how "conflict resolution" would affect the victims. I assumed you knew better.
The Rejected Realms: Former Delegate | Former Vice Delegate | Longest Consecutively Serving Officer in TRR History - 824 Days

Chanku: This isn't an election it's an assault on the eyes. | Ikania: Hear! The Gospel of... Satan. Erh...
Yuno: Not gonna yell, but CoS is one of the best delegates ever | Ever-Wandering Souls: In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

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Wayneactia
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Founded: Aug 01, 2014
New York Times Democracy

Postby Wayneactia » Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:15 am

The Church of Satan wrote:
Twins of Hearts wrote:Equating this with rape is wrong. Enough said there.
Shame on you for agreeing, I assumed you knew better.

They didn't equate them with one another. It was an analogy. It illustrated the similarities in how "conflict resolution" would affect the victims. I assumed you knew better.

You know what happens when you assume right?

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Sedgistan
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Posts: 29562
Founded: Oct 20, 2006
Anarchy

Postby Sedgistan » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:52 am

I've done my best to split this from Neutral Ground in an orderly fashion, but some of the conversation may be a little muddled as some posts overlapped both this discussion and those that stayed in Neutral Ground.

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The Blaatschapen
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Founded: Antiquity
Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:03 am

Wayneactia wrote:
The Church of Satan wrote:They didn't equate them with one another. It was an analogy. It illustrated the similarities in how "conflict resolution" would affect the victims. I assumed you knew better.

You know what happens when you assume right?


I can assure that I know what happens.
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Honeydewistania
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Founded: Jun 09, 2017
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Honeydewistania » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:38 am

Is there a point in arguing this? No matter how much telegram spam you send, how much arguing you do, there are always going to be people uncomfortable with those who have caused harm to others, and the communities that these people are in will want to take charge and bar the offenders to make their users feel safe. You talk about wanting people the freedom to ‘game’, but I can’t really game if I know someone like Plagentine is still allowed into other regions
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Bormiar
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Bormiar » Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:03 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Wayneactia wrote:You know what happens when you assume right?


I can assure that I know what happens.

I want to know what supposedly happens when people assume :p
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Honeydewistania
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Founded: Jun 09, 2017
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Honeydewistania » Mon Jan 13, 2020 6:44 am

Bormiar wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
I can assure that I know what happens.

I want to know what supposedly happens when people assume :p

Make an ass out of u and me
Ambassador to the WA: Benji Schubert Hepperle
Assistant to the Ambassador: Rekeil Wrigglesworth II
Official Coffee-fetcher and Masseuse: Jonathan Santos de Oliveira
Wonderess wrote:frankly someone I don’t want to see gain influence in NS and by extension TNP
Honeydewistania (Nation mostly does not represent real life views.)
Hell yeah I'm ancap... ANti-CAPitalist B)

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Twins of Hearts
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Posts: 174
Founded: Nov 07, 2004
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Twins of Hearts » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:58 am

Honeydewistania wrote:Is there a point in arguing this? No matter how much telegram spam you send, how much arguing you do, there are always going to be people uncomfortable with those who have caused harm to others, and the communities that these people are in will want to take charge and bar the offenders to make their users feel safe. You talk about wanting people the freedom to ‘game’, but I can’t really game if I know someone like Plagentine is still allowed into other regions


I am trying my best not to repeat or belabour any points, but rather to respond to concerns and such.

As for specific player situations I am not speaking on those, as this is more a challenge to a deeply flawed, deeply ingrained system that the proponents of jokingly state "does not exist" but blacklisters appear quite fond of the existence of their ability to collaborate on shunning people without attempting conflict resolution or even any semblance of due process. That is my point, we can, and should, try to do better! Some of the smartest and most clever people I have ever interacted with on the internet came from this site, I just know we can do a better job of maintaining a healthy community without horrible shunning practices.

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Tim-Opolis
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Posts: 6225
Founded: Feb 17, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Tim-Opolis » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:19 am

Honeydewistania wrote:Is there a point in arguing this?

There isn't, but he's seeking attention and we're just bored enough to grant it to him.
The Grey Wardens - Help Us Save Nationstates
Author of SC#74, SC #203, SC #222, and SC #238 | Co-Author of SC#191
Founder of Spiritus | Three-Time Delegate of Osiris | Pharaoh of the Islamic Republics of Iran | Hero of Greece
<Koth - 06/30/2020> I mean as far as GPers go, Tim is one of the most iconic

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Lord Dominator
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Posts: 6550
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:22 am

Tim-Opolis wrote:My favorite part of all this is honestly the fact that Drunken Conquerors is wasting so much time and energy on something that will ultimately accomplish nothing. I would reference “All that for a drop of blood” from Thanos, but not even that has been accomplished.

Please, go ahead and keep going though, it’s good to have something to criticize that we can all collectively conclude is an absolute farce.

To further this point, it doesn't matter how many people sign your petition if they have no ability to change something. This whitelist campaign is such a petition.
Tim-Opolis wrote:
Honeydewistania wrote:Is there a point in arguing this?

There isn't, but he's seeking attention and we're just bored enough to grant it to him.

Personally, I find the contribution to my post count quite nice ;)

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The Church of Satan
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Posts: 1312
Founded: Apr 15, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby The Church of Satan » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:43 am

Twins of Hearts wrote:As for specific player situations I am not speaking on those, as this is more a challenge to a deeply flawed, deeply ingrained system that the proponents of jokingly state "does not exist" but blacklisters appear quite fond of the existence of their ability to collaborate on shunning people without attempting conflict resolution or even any semblance of due process. That is my point, we can, and should, try to do better! Some of the smartest and most clever people I have ever interacted with on the internet came from this site, I just know we can do a better job of maintaining a healthy community without horrible shunning practices.

You say that as if leaving the responsibility of punishing harassers and deviants to in-game court trials is a good idea, which is scary. They're inherently best handled by forum admins and mods, discord admins and mods, as well as regional founders where applicable. Leaving it up to chance will get people hurt more than they initially were. It would drive players away from their regions and away from NationStates.
Last edited by The Church of Satan on Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Rejected Realms: Former Delegate | Former Vice Delegate | Longest Consecutively Serving Officer in TRR History - 824 Days

Chanku: This isn't an election it's an assault on the eyes. | Ikania: Hear! The Gospel of... Satan. Erh...
Yuno: Not gonna yell, but CoS is one of the best delegates ever | Ever-Wandering Souls: In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

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Tim-Opolis
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Posts: 6225
Founded: Feb 17, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Tim-Opolis » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:15 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:Personally, I find the contribution to my post count quite nice ;)

Yeah I've been really needing to pump up my numbers lately, so it's good that we have such an easy topic to circlejerk without having to worry about anything coming about as a result of it.
The Grey Wardens - Help Us Save Nationstates
Author of SC#74, SC #203, SC #222, and SC #238 | Co-Author of SC#191
Founder of Spiritus | Three-Time Delegate of Osiris | Pharaoh of the Islamic Republics of Iran | Hero of Greece
<Koth - 06/30/2020> I mean as far as GPers go, Tim is one of the most iconic

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Aynia Moreaux
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Posts: 174
Founded: Nov 27, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Aynia Moreaux » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:35 pm

Image


Wow I'm late to the party.

So... You keep saying 'Blacklisted' players. I'd like to know what your definition of blacklisting is, and how you think it's ok for sexual predators, harassers, doxxers, abusers, manipulators, and liars to have second and third chances in this game.

I'm going to make this very clear for you. There is no official blacklist, but players do talk to each other. And the reasons that players get blacklisted from multiple regions for extended lengths of time 99.999% of the time is because they did something to deserve it. You seem to be overlooking the fact that these people broke the rules of the social contract we all enter when we start playing this game. Just like real life, participating is signing an unwritten social contract with everyone else in the game that you will behave and act respectably, especially when you are out of character talking to people as yourself.

These people did something to void that social contract and as such they no longer receive the benefits of the community. And I'm sorry but memories are not short as tempers in this game. You may be shunned for months or years, or forever. And I'm sorry but if you've been blacklisted for the above reasons I've mentioned then you deserve it and I don't take pity on you.

This sounds like a cry from people who have screwed up but want people to keep giving them chances they don't deserve. It also sounds a lot like jealousy. I can assure you that while there is no (to my knowledge) true NS 'Cabal' making all the decisions, there is a core group of active players who drive the events of the game forward. And I mean that's obvious and expected. The people who show up, the people who are active and contributing, are the people who are going to drive the plot forward and be in the center of attention.

So in the end, I can't support something like this. Having an unbiased impartial moderation committee to help oversee conflicts and help players who've made dumb mistakes integrate back into the game and pay their dues to who they've wronged, that's a little sketch, but I could get behind that more than a blatant attempt to get some of the most infamous blacklisted players back in the game and seemingly in everyone's good graces. Advocating for people who have done awful things isn't advocating for 'victims' of bullying and harassment. They aren't victims. They are the ones who decided to take the actions they did, and got themselves into the place they are now. They made their bed and now they have to lie in it.
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Domais
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Posts: 68
Founded: Sep 15, 2018
Capitalist Paradise

Postby Domais » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:45 pm

Aynia Moreaux wrote:I'm going to make this very clear for you. There is no official blacklist, but players do talk to each other. And the reasons that players get blacklisted from multiple regions for extended lengths of time 99.999% of the time is because they did something to deserve it. You seem to be overlooking the fact that these people broke the rules of the social contract we all enter when we start playing this game. Just like real life, participating is signing an unwritten social contract with everyone else in the game that you will behave and act respectably, especially when you are out of character talking to people as yourself.
Unwritten rules are no rules at law.
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Dilber
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Posts: 42
Founded: May 03, 2004
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Dilber » Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:28 pm

You know what really makes people want to interact with people they have no interest in interacting with?

attempting to force them to do so.


(you can't force people to interact with those they don't want to. This is how relationships work in general)

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Lord Dominator
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Posts: 6550
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Mon Jan 13, 2020 2:50 pm

Domais wrote:
Aynia Moreaux wrote:I'm going to make this very clear for you. There is no official blacklist, but players do talk to each other. And the reasons that players get blacklisted from multiple regions for extended lengths of time 99.999% of the time is because they did something to deserve it. You seem to be overlooking the fact that these people broke the rules of the social contract we all enter when we start playing this game. Just like real life, participating is signing an unwritten social contract with everyone else in the game that you will behave and act respectably, especially when you are out of character talking to people as yourself.
Unwritten rules are no rules at law.

They are still rules by definition

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South Reinkalistan
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Posts: 1325
Founded: Mar 12, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby South Reinkalistan » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:08 pm

OOC: This got its own thread? Really? I know my opinion doesn't count for much, but can't we just all ignore this? It's rather pitiable.
THE PEOPLE ETERNAL
Esotericist vanguard-state with cyber-Leninist aesthetics. You read that right.


LAST GASP OF THE OLD WORLD JOIN THE TNPL RESIST WESTERN LIBERALISM BUY OUR GUNS
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This nation is a story. It focuses on Reinkalistan, but reaches far beyond its borders.


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Alyekra
Minister
 
Posts: 2828
Founded: May 03, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Alyekra » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:10 pm

South Reinkalistan wrote:OOC: This got its own thread? Really? I know my opinion doesn't count for much, but can't we just all ignore this? It's rather pitiable.


you have already failed
(FOR LEGAL REASONS, THAT'S A JOKE)

65 dkp

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Tim-Opolis
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6225
Founded: Feb 17, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Tim-Opolis » Mon Jan 13, 2020 3:36 pm

Alyekra wrote:
South Reinkalistan wrote:OOC: This got its own thread? Really? I know my opinion doesn't count for much, but can't we just all ignore this? It's rather pitiable.


you have already failed

Gameplay needs a narrative to talk about in January, otherwise we'll be bored as shit. This presents a fascinating circlejerk.
The Grey Wardens - Help Us Save Nationstates
Author of SC#74, SC #203, SC #222, and SC #238 | Co-Author of SC#191
Founder of Spiritus | Three-Time Delegate of Osiris | Pharaoh of the Islamic Republics of Iran | Hero of Greece
<Koth - 06/30/2020> I mean as far as GPers go, Tim is one of the most iconic

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South Reinkalistan
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Posts: 1325
Founded: Mar 12, 2019
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby South Reinkalistan » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:31 pm

Tim-Opolis wrote:
Alyekra wrote:
you have already failed

Gameplay needs a narrative to talk about in January, otherwise we'll be bored as shit. This presents a fascinating circlejerk.

OOC: Ah, I see.

Well I'll be watching with popcorn. Having heard of some of Twins of Heart's past, I'm a helluva lot more sceptical about this campaign.
THE PEOPLE ETERNAL
Esotericist vanguard-state with cyber-Leninist aesthetics. You read that right.


LAST GASP OF THE OLD WORLD JOIN THE TNPL RESIST WESTERN LIBERALISM BUY OUR GUNS
Meme courtesy of Khoronzon. | It's all Zeloria? Always has been. | The amogus thing. | aaaa I can't stop listening ;-;
Now with chapters: (1), (2), (3)
This nation is a story. It focuses on Reinkalistan, but reaches far beyond its borders.


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Twins of Hearts
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 174
Founded: Nov 07, 2004
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Twins of Hearts » Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:54 pm

The Church of Satan wrote:
Twins of Hearts wrote:Equating this with rape is wrong. Enough said there.
Shame on you for agreeing, I assumed you knew better.

They didn't equate them with one another. It was an analogy. It illustrated the similarities in how "conflict resolution" would affect the victims. I assumed you knew better.



Owning your wrong would have been as sign of some maturity.

However the backstroke while pointing at me....eh. Not so much.
South Reinkalistan wrote:
Tim-Opolis wrote:Gameplay needs a narrative to talk about in January, otherwise we'll be bored as shit. This presents a fascinating edited obscenity out.

OOC: Ah, I see.

Well I'll be watching with popcorn. Having heard of some of Twins of Heart's past, I'm a helluva lot more sceptical about this campaign.


What you may or may not have heard about me is not relevant, as I and anyone I interacted with in this situation that keeps getting mentioned resolved our conflicts ourselves a good long time ago. This is not about me, rather about the practice of blacklisting and finding a better solution. The entrenchment and crystalized power structure behind the blacklist however, which to remind everyone that I am imperfect. A glaringly obvious statement, given that all of us are imperfect.

Staying focused on the positive, and moving the game in a positive direction is the focus of the whitelist campaign!
Last edited by Twins of Hearts on Mon Jan 13, 2020 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Katganistan
Senior Game Moderator
 
Posts: 34416
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Katganistan » Mon Jan 13, 2020 5:29 pm

Just an observation: no one is obliged to associate with anyone they do not wish to associate with.

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