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[SPLIT] Blacklist/Whitelist discussion

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
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Wayneactia
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Postby Wayneactia » Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:31 pm

Block II wrote:I have been unjustly blacklisted, so yes I’m being harassed and bullied.

You can shout that as much as you want. Nobody (that hasn't been blacklisted anyway) believes it.

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Block II
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Postby Block II » Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:57 pm

I’m by no means innocent (see forum destruction 10 years ago). But I’ve done nothing to be blacklisted.

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Tim-Opolis
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Postby Tim-Opolis » Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:23 pm

Block II wrote:I have been unjustly blacklisted, so yes I’m being harassed and bullied.

Why don’t you go ahead and tell us what you were blacklisted for then? Clearly if it was unjust and untrue you can call us out for it in a public venue to get your “justice”. :)
Last edited by Tim-Opolis on Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Wayneactia
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Postby Wayneactia » Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:30 pm

Tim-Opolis wrote:
Block II wrote:I have been unjustly blacklisted, so yes I’m being harassed and bullied.

Why don’t you go ahead and tell us what you were blacklisted for then? Clearly if it was unjust and untrue you can call us out for it in a public venue to get your “justice”. :)

Pretty sure there are rules about divulging exactly what he did to get blacklisted, so it is just easier to scream innocence instead. :)

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The Church of Satan
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Postby The Church of Satan » Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:45 pm

Which goes to show that you, Block, have learned nothing. You're the same sort of person you were when you did what you did.
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Block II
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Postby Block II » Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:51 pm

The Church of Satan wrote:Which goes to show that you, Block, have learned nothing. You're the same sort of person you were when you did what you did.


I’ve done nothing to get blacklisted, CoS. My persecution is unjust, and therefore it is harassment and bullying.

And, I’ll go on to add that I’m a much better person than I was 10 years ago when I was a teenager. I’d like to think that we all are. :)

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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:00 am

Block II wrote:
The Church of Satan wrote:Which goes to show that you, Block, have learned nothing. You're the same sort of person you were when you did what you did.


I’ve done nothing to get blacklisted, CoS. My persecution is unjust, and therefore it is harassment and bullying.

And, I’ll go on to add that I’m a much better person than I was 10 years ago when I was a teenager. I’d like to think that we all are. :)


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Numero Capitan
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Postby Numero Capitan » Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:27 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
±10 years ago, Sedge was a mod, now, he's a mod. Has he improved? :p


He couped in 2011, if anything he's got worse
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The Blaatschapen
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Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:36 am

Numero Capitan wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
±10 years ago, Sedge was a mod, now, he's a mod. Has he improved? :p


He couped in 2011, if anything he's got worse


He should coup again in 2021 :)
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Block II
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Postby Block II » Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:49 am

I think he’s a more polite mod, if that counts for anything.

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Lamoni
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Postby Lamoni » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:50 pm

Block II wrote:
Twins of Hearts wrote:

No one here has said there is a central database. I think you must be confused...the White List Campaign is a campaign against bullying, shaming, and shunning. In your own words "...just a bunch of people..." have chosen to become rigid and inflexible around this issue, and they do, in an unsolicited manner, continue to gossip about player X being on "the blacklist", or "dont talk to them, they are blacklisted", or when a blacklisted player does speak openly, they are banned or ignored/shunned.

The White List Campaign (https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1303449) clearly lays out a simple plan to end the exclusionary and negative behavior on both sides. Its not about personal belief or personal choice being invalidated. In fact, it speaks to Honoring the "negative" experience that created the blacklisting, and striving towards healing. Repeat: Both aggreived parties are the target, so that they are no longer aggrieved. The intention is to keep gameplay fun, interesting and not in the hands of a few "Gossip Kings/Queens" that, intentionally or not, misrepresent information and continues to cause great harm LONG after events have been worked out by the participants.



Xoriet, I know you are quite involved in repeating the things you learn about on the blacklist. You would be a great partner in helping us work out a solution! Using your gifts to be helpful to the White List Campaign and to nations on site would be a wonderful way to give back!

You are right about Original Nationstates being more enjoyable. Its back when the site peaked in usage, search engine searches, etc. Its when the game was never thought of as potentially dying off. It also lacked a Blacklist and..... everything was fine. Now I was around for those days, and while flame wars and griefing happened, site admin and the mods took care of it. They made rules. I was threatened with being killed many times. However, the moderation staff deleted those users, banned their IPs etc. A Blacklist truly solves nothing but to create a caste system through cult based indoctrination techniques as discussed above. I know I am above that, and I assume you are too.

This Blacklisting is a modern Nationstates creation that seemed to blossom with discord. I am focusing on its influence creep into the game of nationstates, not into private discord servers for specific regions, etc.



Darkesia is correct. Shunning will continue the Blacklist. Its also used by most major cults to disrupt families and friends, and drive a wedge to keep trapped cult members....trapped. One group famously coined the phrase "subversive individuals" in order to make shunning easier. Its just BAD. ANd it is the absolute pinnacle of hypocrisy, unintentional, I presume, to have those advocating for safety, as CoS did above; creating and perpetuating a broken system that actually allows other offsite abuses to occur.

Just look at the negative tone of some of the responses. The mere idea of switching up a system has so flustered those nations participating in it, that the real cost of The Blacklist is revealed: you have to trust those running it. That is why its a universal negative. Self appointed friends that ally together to promote blacklisting players who do not obey their specific and personal code of gaming is WRONG. Its bullying. And it is most certainly discriminatory.

You cannot cure "evil" with "evil", if that is what the moral justification is here. I have been told most Blacklisted players simply "go underground" make a new identity and play elsewhere on the game. Its easy enough to do. However why should anyone be bullied into sacrificing their identity? Some nations have special meaning to their players. Which victim is every told to do that? That is why we must trust our Moderators, and cease having self appointed "mobocratic" campaigns against a minority group of nations and instead focus on the correction of the difficulty between situations, or nations as The White List Campaign discusses.

Also, mildly disappointed their were no constructive ideas for enhancing The White List. As a further clarification, I am not suggesting any one person "runs" it, simply that a cooperative and caring group of nations interested in gaming to be the focus to step up and take positive action when the need arises, according to a delineated and (as universally agreed upon as possible) accepted pattern of conflict resolution.


You make very valid and factually correct points, Twins of Hearts. It’s a shame they are falling on the deaf ears of harassers and bullies. I believe they know you’re right, but don’t want to acknowledge the truth. So they hide from the truth by trying to silence you with cult like tactics such as “shunning” and “ignoring”. It’s rude, and down right despicable, really.

As far as suggestions for how to improve or implement this whitelist campaign, perhaps we could try creating a region with the aim to rehabilitate members of our community dealing with this? Or we could have regions that already established pledge themselves to helping with the rehabilitation? Or we could even have members of our community work with someone dealing with the blacklist and sponsor them for reintegration with the rest of the community?


*** 7-day ban for harassment ***
Block II:

You do not get to just run around, labeling everyone who has a different opinion from you as "harassers and bullies." That in and of itself, is harassment.
Last edited by Lamoni on Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Twins of Hearts
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby Twins of Hearts » Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:10 pm

This type of result is a natural occurrence with the continued existence, and even prolifiration, of Blacklisting players. While a rule was judged to have been broken, it was likely in response to the extremes of distress some nations will inevitably feel when they experience the systematic and intentional effects of Blacklisting.

Lets talk about black for a second. Black, being the absolute absence of light, if the color is to represent a philosophy, it would be the dark ages of Nationstates.

The White List Campaign, is designed to be the opposite. To forge new bonds, to remedy old ailments between nations, to foster understanding and peace.

I have heard the objections, namely, summed up “They deserve it”. This is inadequate and ignorant. Period.

If the blacklist worked, it would have “cured” Nationstates of offenses. Instead nations like Padfootia are driven off. Read their CTE dispatch. This is the actual face of the nations being discriminated against. Those that blindly continue to support th blacklist support bullying, support discrimination, and support shunning.

Anyone can point to a mistake(or two, or a half dozen) and then victimize the nation making such a mistake by blaming, shaming and shunning. Two irl trash cults pop to mind immediately. Let us instead rise above manipulation and lies and instead fix the issue together, as equals.

No more fear mongering, (i love the word mongering for this situation, it is perfect) because those in power wish to remain, to try and shape the face of this game. The moderators and admin will keep us as players safe from offenses. No one needs another player for safety. That is a lie. Offenses against site rules should be reported to moderators. Anger between players will happen, be the IC or OOC. Thats life. How we respond, shows what kind of player or nation (depending on the situation) we all are.

Do you want to continue live in the dark ages of Nationstates? Or will you help change the landscape, spreading seeds of healing across a new Enlightenment for the game?

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The Church of Satan
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby The Church of Satan » Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:33 pm

So now you're painting it as a power play? There's no low you won't go, is there? Truly shameful.
The Rejected Realms: Former Delegate | Former Vice Delegate | Longest Consecutively Serving Officer in TRR History - 824 Days

Chanku: This isn't an election it's an assault on the eyes. | Ikania: Hear! The Gospel of... Satan. Erh...
Yuno: Not gonna yell, but CoS is one of the best delegates ever | Ever-Wandering Souls: In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

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Custadia
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Postby Custadia » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:50 pm

Twins of Hearts wrote:The moderators and admin will keep us as players safe from offenses.


No, they won't.

For example, site staff often will not act on offsite evidence. The NS community extends a long way offsite into discord servers, regional forums, IRCs, what have you. The community cannot therefore be wholly protected by site staff with onsite resources.

There are people reading and posting on this forum who should have been permanently banned years ago.
Last edited by Custadia on Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:55 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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South Reinkalistan
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Postby South Reinkalistan » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:16 pm

OOC: Hmmm... a tag:WA telegram? These folks are really going all-out, huh?

Then again, it's probably a move out of desperation and lack of support :p
Last edited by South Reinkalistan on Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Twins of Hearts
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Postby Twins of Hearts » Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:38 pm

South Reinkalistan wrote:OOC: Hmmm... a tag:WA telegram? These folks are really going all-out, huh?

Then again, it's probably a move out of desperation and lack of support :p


Just getting the word out, off forum, in game. :p

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George Mountbatten VI
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Father Knows Best State

Postby George Mountbatten VI » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:48 pm

I can't say the decision is suprising. It truly appears that those in power will act by whatever means they can to strike down those who dare question them. I truly don't mean to inflame however I didn't see any issue with Block's comments. Eventhough factual he is punished. What a pity.
Last edited by George Mountbatten VI on Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Church of Satan
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby The Church of Satan » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:55 pm

George Mountbatten VI wrote:I can't say the decision is suprising. It truly appears that those in power will act by whatever means they can to strike down those who dare question them. I truly don't mean to inflame however I didn't see any issue with Block's comments. Eventhough factual he is punished. What a pity.

If you mean that ban he got slapped with like five posts ago, he broke another site rule for the umpteenth time. Lamoni isn't "in power". He's a NationStates moderator.
The Rejected Realms: Former Delegate | Former Vice Delegate | Longest Consecutively Serving Officer in TRR History - 824 Days

Chanku: This isn't an election it's an assault on the eyes. | Ikania: Hear! The Gospel of... Satan. Erh...
Yuno: Not gonna yell, but CoS is one of the best delegates ever | Ever-Wandering Souls: In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

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Vaculatestar64
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Ex-Nation

Postby Vaculatestar64 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:00 pm

For players like me, who truly want to make amends for any wrongs we have committed in our (sometimes) long past, I don't see why even an attempt and healing and correction should be something the power players should be against, unless maintaining their power is all they are worried about, which I suspect is the case.

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George Mountbatten VI
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Postby George Mountbatten VI » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:02 pm

The Church of Satan wrote:
George Mountbatten VI wrote:I can't say the decision is suprising. It truly appears that those in power will act by whatever means they can to strike down those who dare question them. I truly don't mean to inflame however I didn't see any issue with Block's comments. Eventhough factual he is punished. What a pity.

If you mean that ban he got slapped with like five posts ago, he broke another site rule for the umpteenth time. Lamoni isn't "in power". He's a NationStates moderator.


I'll say the following and leave it at that. I've personally been effected by the blacklisting culture, I've been shamed, and so on. I'm not saying that it wasn't justified. I admit, I made a great deal of mistakes. I'll own that fact. The issue here is that people who carry issue with myself and other blacklisted players make it their whole mission on NS to make sure those on that list live in constant hell. Ensuring that they do whatever they can, to ensure the player is removed. Some of us just want to play in peace and be left alone however GP makes that impossible. Playing always in fear that whatever you may do to try to build or reestablish will be torn to pieces by bitter, and vengeful players hell bent on achieving TOTAL victory in a game created vendetta.

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The Church of Satan
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby The Church of Satan » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:14 pm

Vaculatestar64 wrote:For players like me, who truly want to make amends for any wrongs we have committed in our (sometimes) long past, I don't see why even an attempt and healing and correction should be something the power players should be against, unless maintaining their power is all they are worried about, which I suspect is the case.

Allowing racists, sexual deviants and such back into our communities doesn't threaten anyone's political power or influence. It hurts the friends we've made in our communities. An attempt at healing and correction for such players isn't an attempt. It's a risk to innocent players. A potential danger to them that shouldn't have to be taken in the first place. Any blacklisted player who can't (or won't) see that is just being selfish. Our communities are safer places without them.
The Rejected Realms: Former Delegate | Former Vice Delegate | Longest Consecutively Serving Officer in TRR History - 824 Days

Chanku: This isn't an election it's an assault on the eyes. | Ikania: Hear! The Gospel of... Satan. Erh...
Yuno: Not gonna yell, but CoS is one of the best delegates ever | Ever-Wandering Souls: In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

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Borovan entered the region as he
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Ex-Nation

Postby Borovan entered the region as he » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:20 pm

Ooc: God a telegram that's not even a WA proposal this was annoying most don't want to even see this or have no idea what it's talking about
the ambassador starts thinking of blocking all telegram preferences and starts ripping whatever papers are in front of him
Last edited by Borovan entered the region as he on Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Vaculatestar64
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Ex-Nation

Postby Vaculatestar64 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:35 pm

The Church of Satan wrote:
Vaculatestar64 wrote:For players like me, who truly want to make amends for any wrongs we have committed in our (sometimes) long past, I don't see why even an attempt and healing and correction should be something the power players should be against, unless maintaining their power is all they are worried about, which I suspect is the case.

Allowing racists, sexual deviants and such back into our communities doesn't threaten anyone's political power or influence. It hurts the friends we've made in our communities. An attempt at healing and correction for such players isn't an attempt. It's a risk to innocent players. A potential danger to them that shouldn't have to be taken in the first place. Any blacklisted player who can't (or won't) see that is just being selfish. Our communities are safer places without them.


Amazing, what if our prison system had that same attitude. ;)

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Guy
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Postby Guy » Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:01 pm

Thankfully, whether or not you are allowed back into NationStates regions isn't quite the same thing as reintegration into society following completion of a prison sentence. NS communities have to put the safety of their users first, and any other considerations are secondary to that. We aren't trained to mitigate the risk that people who have engaged in misconduct in the past might pose. (And, of course, the ability to participate in NS isn't comparable to not being incarcerated, being able to get a job and housing and integrate into society, etc.)

Rather than complain about the treatment of so-called 'blacklisted' players, if any of you truly desire a second chance, you would have to convince someone that any risks that you pose have been substantially, if not wholly, mitigated. You could do this by showing some insight into the reasons for which you are banned, rather than simply complain about it. Address the harm that you have caused in the past, show some understanding of it and contrition for it, and perhaps even try to make amends where possible.

Until then, all that I get from this 'whitelisting' campaign are people upset that their actions have consequences for themselves, without understanding that it's the consequences to others from their actions that have landed them where they are.
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Vaculatestar64
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Ex-Nation

Postby Vaculatestar64 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:03 pm

Guy wrote:Thankfully, whether or not you are allowed back into NationStates regions isn't quite the same thing as reintegration into society following completion of a prison sentence. NS communities have to put the safety of their users first, and any other considerations are secondary to that. We aren't trained to mitigate the risk that people who have engaged in misconduct in the past might pose. (And, of course, the ability to participate in NS isn't comparable to not being incarcerated, being able to get a job and housing and integrate into society, etc.)

Rather than complain about the treatment of so-called 'blacklisted' players, if any of you truly desire a second chance, you would have to convince someone that any risks that you pose have been substantially, if not wholly, mitigated. You could do this by showing some insight into the reasons for which you are banned, rather than simply complain about it. Address the harm that you have caused in the past, show some understanding of it and contrition for it, and perhaps even try to make amends where possible.

Until then, all that I get from this 'whitelisting' campaign are people upset that their actions have consequences for themselves, without understanding that it's the consequences to others from their actions that have landed them where they are.



Incredible, it's almost as if integrating back into NationStates is simpler than reintegrating back into society after incarceration. While NationStates is similar to society in that people are willing to stab literally ANYONE in the back to get ahead, there are many more differences than there ever are similarities, wouldn't you agree?

If we started a huge I'm sorry thread we'd be mocked and trolled into oblivion, don't even begin to try and set anyone up for that circus, it should be below someone of your "standing" am I right? And unfortunately for me, the person who I allegedly wronged, is now currently banned for her long list of alleged crimes that are significantly worse than any I am accused of in the incredibly thin Europeian ban notice.

Edit: typo
Last edited by Vaculatestar64 on Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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