NationStates

Posted: **Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:17 pm**

Honeydewistania wrote:All the people in this thread thinking their snippiness and snark is funny

Right?

Libertanny wrote:Good day Yokiria,

Thank you for coming and bringing your concerns here. Nice to see you again. And thank you for informing us about official repeal of the treaty, however, I feel obligated to ask you for evidence regarding this, so we don't end up with Schrodinger's Treaty between Osiris and The East Pacific again, where Osiris, depending on its needs, either claims that the treaty is repeal or not repealed.

https://osiris.valthost.com/viewtopic.p ... #p10045232
There you go.

Libertanny wrote:As predicted. Direct attacks on The East Pacific, The Consortium and member-regions of Consortium did not work, so you decided to "advice" our allies. You first mentioned TSP and TRR probably being interested in repealing treaty with The East Pacific. After Minister of Foreign Affairs of TSP denied that, you appeared in TRR's thread. I am deeply sad to inform you, but that's not gonna work. We talked with our allies, that Osiris might be trying dirty games to undermine our relations with them [allies].

What in the world are you talking about? I first mentioned that The East Pacific would probably repeal the treaty with TSP and TRR in the future. And when I "appeared" in TRT's thread, I made a remark about how their choice not to publish anything about this dispute was wise so it couldn't be used by TEP to repeal their treaty. How you've managed to completely flip my statements around, I don't know.

As for the rest of your post, I'll just say this: What I know about the situation comes from those in Osiris, as I'm only a citizen there and hold no greater positions. If I'm wrong about something, it's because the statements there were wrong. Also I'm not going to leak things from Osiris, so no screenshots for you.

Posted: **Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:18 pm**

Honeydewistania wrote:All the people in this thread thinking their snippiness and snark is funny

I do in fact think my memes are funny, yes.

Posted: **Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:20 pm**

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
Honeydewistania wrote:All the people in this thread thinking their snippiness and snark is funny

I do in fact think my memes are funny, yes.

Your memes are indeed humourous. I was mentioning the ‘improve your reading comprehension lel’ posts

Posted: **Wed Sep 16, 2020 4:21 pm**

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
Honeydewistania wrote:All the people in this thread thinking their snippiness and snark is funny

I do in fact think my memes are funny, yes.

Your memes are fine, Souls. Your dad jokes are better.

Posted: **Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:28 pm**

Libertanny wrote:Firstly, let me correct your loud ignorance here. You keep claiming, that AMOM was let in after the treaty was ratified. That's a blatant and manipulative lie. Let me get you an actual fact - AMOM applied for citizenship in The East Pacific on 3rd of November 2019 ( https://forum.theeastpacific.com/viewto ... 16#p218316 ). It is more than a natural situation, that a player actively contributing to our region would get promoted / elected for some positions. Additionally, pardon your ignorance once again, but our Moderation Team is independent from the Government or any In-Character laws. Government has no say about OOC and Moderation has no say about IC (unless they also hold IC offices). In even more addition, AMOM became OOC Moderator in November 2019 (on 11th of November to be exact). So when Osiris was ratifying the treaty, you were aware that AMOM is in The East Pacific and that he is OOC Moderator. And just for clearance with dates, Treaty of Tranquility was ratified on February 3rd 2020 ( https://forum.theeastpacific.com/treaty ... ml#p222336 ), which makes it happen four months after AMOM was let in and became OOC Moderator. So you were aware.

I must confess I find the political theory here fascinating.

In my day "OOC" and "IC" would not have been thrown around so cavalierly. The dirty secret of Gameplay is that it's all IC unless you're actually talking about stuff unrelated to the game. And sometimes not even then. Sure, people will argue that it's not, that it's easy to compartmentalize one's personal and political views. I've seen the arguments for duality, for the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. But I'd hope we're all smart enough to realize that people are human and don't have hard firewalls in their heads.

Perhaps a more precise analogy would be between a "head of state" and "head of government." Here, the forum administration and moderation team represent the head of state. They are not involved in governance, but they are charged with maintaining the seat of governance and the gathering place for the regional community. (Well, that part of it that is offsite and not Discord.) It's a role separate from the regional government, sure. But it's not a role separate from the region. And I'd expect an offsite forum mod to still be using their authority in-line with the region's interests—if for no other reason than why would you give somebody a position of trust over your regional forums if you didn't trust them to so act?

Posted: **Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:35 pm**

Gorundu wrote:
La xinga wrote:That's what we're talking about.

XKI mass recruited from feeders when? And what are the other regions?

I can say with utmost sincerity, as the now former WA Delegate of XKI, that XKI has never and will never send mass WA recruitment telegrams to any region that doesn't do it to us first. We send telegrams to newly founded and newly refounded nations, and that's it. Quoting you Gorundu and La Xinga both to answer you both

Posted: **Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:54 pm**

Goobergunchia wrote:I'd expect an offsite forum mod to still be using their authority in-line with the region's interests—if for no other reason than why would you give somebody a position of trust over your regional forums if you didn't trust them to so act?

Players' wellbeing is more important than the interests of a region. An admin must put the players' wellbeing first in all circumstances.

Posted: **Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:15 pm**

Custadia wrote:
Goobergunchia wrote:I'd expect an offsite forum mod to still be using their authority in-line with the region's interests—if for no other reason than why would you give somebody a position of trust over your regional forums if you didn't trust them to so act?

Players' wellbeing is more important than the interests of a region. An admin must put the players' wellbeing first in all circumstances.

I don't disagree with you, philosophically. But what exactly best serves and promotes "players' wellbeing" is subject to interpretation, and necessarily you're not likely to see an administrator taking a significantly different position than the regional consensus. There is no Objectively Best Way to moderate.

And note that I intended "region's interests" to be very broad. I tend to assume that most regions well-organized enough to have active offsite forums want their residents to have a good experience. Offsite roleplay, regional maps, flagmaker services—all these further the interest of a region in helping its residents have a good time.

Posted: **Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:21 am**

Arkadia Universalis wrote:
Gorundu wrote:Good to see an Osiran finally admit that NSToday is important to Osiris and that a prominent Osiran is very influential in NSToday, rather than "just the FA guy" (I presume if Wym's connections to NSToday aren't important to Osiris, it wouldn't have been listed in your list of Osiris grievances).

If that’s what you got from this, then you’re not particularly qualified to speak on any of that rant. But let’s break it down, shall we?

First of all, NSToday isn’t important to Osiris. That’s not at all what was “admitted” to here. The fact that Wym, an Osiran, was prominent in NSToday is simply public knowledge, not some kind of “gotcha!” moment. However, your reasoning for addressing it is very flawed.

The point that was being made in the sentence you quoted was this: TEP chose to be disrespectful and rude to an Osiran who brought up LEGITIMATE complaints on behalf of Osiris. Power20 is a thing that Wym is well known for and put a ton of work into organizing while he was in charge of it, which was every time it was published up until now. Power20 was a project that became associated with Wym as a player because he was the NST official consistently organizing and working on it. Power20 being Wym’s project is what prompted Karen20. It was an effort on the part of TEP to mock Osiris by mocking an Osiran diplomat.

“We want to make fun of Osiris, Wym is an Osiran diplomat, therefore we will make fun of Wym.” It’s really that simple.

I’ll say it again: NSToday is not important to Osiris. Wym is important to Osiris. Power20 was important to Wym. That is why TEP behaved the way it did. That Wym cares - or cared - about NSToday does not mean that Osiris cares about it. Osiris’ grievance lies in the fact that TEP flippantly disrespected one of our own diplomats specifically because that diplomat vocalized the region’s concerns about a treatied ally inviting a traitor into the upper echelons of their government. On the off chance that your commentary was not made entirely in bad faith, I hope that this reply has been helpful in illustrating how silly it was.

Thank you for the very detailed and prompt response. Turns out Syl/Yokiria isn't the best at being Osiris' unofficial spokesperson, so if you could do the same thing regarding your relations with TEP so we can all move on from this stupid argument, that would be very much appreciated.

Posted: **Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:23 am**

Gorundu wrote:Thank you for the very detailed and prompt response. Turns out Syl/Yokiria isn't the best at being Osiris' unofficial spokesperson, so if you could do the same thing regarding your relations with TEP so we can all move on from this stupid argument, that would be very much appreciated.

So I said something, you got confused about it, Ark cleared it up, and you thank him... but crap on me? You're the one that made the mistake.

Posted: **Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:00 am**

Hey Yokiria o/

Glad to see you here again.

I'm still expecting a valid reply to my post, not just some loud barking without any relevance.

Hoping, that I won't be dissapointed.

Cheers,

Your Libertanny

Posted: **Thu Sep 17, 2020 2:50 pm**

Libertanny wrote:Hey Yokiria o/

Glad to see you here again.

I'm still expecting a valid reply to my post, not just some loud barking without any relevance.

You must have missed it. Here you go.
viewtopic.php?p=37657316#p37657316

Posted: **Fri Sep 18, 2020 2:30 am**

Yokiria wrote:
Libertanny wrote:Hey Yokiria o/

Glad to see you here again.

I'm still expecting a valid reply to my post, not just some loud barking without any relevance.

You must have missed it. Here you go.
viewtopic.php?p=37657316#p37657316

I haven't and I am dissapointed, Yokiria.

Seems like loud barking, spreading blatant lies and trying, but failing, to manipulate is best you can do. I expected a constructibe debate and you at least trying to answer with some relevance to my post. You haven't. But what did I expect.

That being said. Expect me back, when you will again post a novel full of blatant lies about my region.

Cheers.

Posted: **Fri Sep 18, 2020 6:13 am**

I wouldn't even bother replying to people who can't differentiate between OOC and IC. Discord moderation team is strictly OOC. They are not supposed to moderate what's IC(this made up game, made up government and your made believe "power"). They're supposed to moderate OOCily based on OOC behaviour for the safety of the community. If anyone can't understand that, then there is no more point arguing.

Posted: **Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:41 am**

Marrabuk wrote:I wouldn't even bother replying to people who can't differentiate between OOC and IC. Discord moderation team is strictly OOC. They are not supposed to moderate what's IC(this made up game, made up government and your made believe "power"). They're supposed to moderate OOCily based on OOC behaviour for the safety of the community. If anyone can't understand that, then there is no more point arguing.

There's no bright line in Gameplay, though. NationStates is a political game and it turns out personal relationships, both positive and negative, are an important part of politics. And there have been plenty of debates over the years about whether, say, invader/defender trash talk is IC or OOC. While there are obvious cases in both directions it's foolish to say that there isn't also a huge gray area.

Also it's profoundly silly to say that offsite moderation should stick entirely to OOC matters. If I was openly plotting to coup a region on said region's offsite forums/Discord I'd fully deserve to get banned! While the game may be "made up", the communities are real—and the two can't be neatly divided from each other.

Posted: **Fri Sep 18, 2020 12:36 pm**

I gotta say, I agree fully with Goober. Forum administration, Discord moderation and regional governments need to work together. For IC stuff, players that have tried to coup the region (for example) need to be banned from the forums and the Discord server. By your logic Marrabuk, you would have the very people that overthrew TEP come back into the region through Discord just so they can be back at it again.

Posted: **Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:31 pm**

Goobergunchia wrote:
Marrabuk wrote:I wouldn't even bother replying to people who can't differentiate between OOC and IC. Discord moderation team is strictly OOC. They are not supposed to moderate what's IC(this made up game, made up government and your made believe "power"). They're supposed to moderate OOCily based on OOC behaviour for the safety of the community. If anyone can't understand that, then there is no more point arguing.

There's no bright line in Gameplay, though. NationStates is a political game and it turns out personal relationships, both positive and negative, are an important part of politics. And there have been plenty of debates over the years about whether, say, invader/defender trash talk is IC or OOC. While there are obvious cases in both directions it's foolish to say that there isn't also a huge gray area.

Also it's profoundly silly to say that offsite moderation should stick entirely to OOC matters. If I was openly plotting to coup a region on said region's offsite forums/Discord I'd fully deserve to get banned! While the game may be "made up", the communities are real—and the two can't be neatly divided from each other.

If there is a coup(IC), they will be banned via an IC court. The admins will just act on behalf of the IC ruling. By your logic, if there is a coup, Forum/discord admins/moderators can just ban IC baddies without the proper IC rulings(at least, that's not how we do in TEP)?

Also raider/defender trash talks are IC unless it starts to get personal. By personal I mean, the person behind the computer/phone. For example, directly attacking the person without any IC backings. That's OOC.

Posted: **Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:32 pm**

The Church of Satan wrote:I gotta say, I agree fully with Goober. Forum administration, Discord moderation and regional governments need to work together. For IC stuff, players that have tried to coup the region (for example) need to be banned from the forums and the Discord server. By your logic Marrabuk, you would have the very people that overthrew TEP come back into the region through Discord just so they can be back at it again.

I've pretty much explained the same stuffs to Gober.

Posted: **Fri Sep 18, 2020 11:40 pm**

Marrabuk wrote:I've pretty much explained the same stuffs to Gober.

Some regions don't have a judiciary. Some regions just leave it all to the forum admins and it works fabulously because we have people like fratt and Guy to do so without bias.

Posted: **Sat Sep 19, 2020 1:42 am**

The Church of Satan wrote:
Marrabuk wrote:I've pretty much explained the same stuffs to Gober.

Some regions don't have a judiciary. Some regions just leave it all to the forum admins and it works fabulously because we have people like fratt and Guy to do so without bias.

That's really nice to know, CoS, and I respect that.

However, in TEP, we'd like to keep a clear distinction between OOC and IC.

Forum admins/mods and discord admins/mods - OOC leaders of the region. Their jobs are to ensure the wellbeing and safety of our community.

Government of The East Pacific, as established by the concordat - IC leaders of the region. They are only to enforce and maintain the laws of the Concordat(IC).

In fact, a few months back, when I was still delegate, towards the end of my term, our legislation passed a law to start handling OOC stuffs, which I was heavily against. So I decided to veto that law. Simply because we have minors holding OOC government positions. We can't expect or should pressure and subject minors into dealing with OOC stuffs especially when it involves 18+ contents.

So basically, our region and also my personal beliefs that OOC and IC should remain separate. And it has worked out well so far, for us. The two "branches" work together but don't interfere with one another's authority in their respective area.

Also, to add. When I was delegate, the topic of AMOM being back in TEP and the positions he held, was brought between Osi and myself. However, Osi's government back then understood that being a discord mod was an OOC role, even without me explaining it. So hope that helps.

Posted: **Sat Sep 19, 2020 3:27 am**

Marrabuk wrote:When I was delegate, the topic of AMOM being back in TEP and the positions he held, was brought between Osi and myself.

Hmm, why is that familiar?

Yokiria wrote:Not a good start to the alliance, but then-Pharaoh Anabelle of Osiris and then-delegate Marrabuk of TEP had already sorted it out privately.

Looks like what I say is only "loud barking"/"blatant lies" when it doesn't make TEP look good. When it does, then it's perfectly accurate.

Also, let's make something very clear here. When I brought up AMOM being a mod, I called it one of his new positions. That's it. I never called it in-character. In fact, I specifically used the word "offsite" to describe it. So it really doesn't make sense when you say things like this...

Marrabuk wrote:I wouldn't even bother replying to people who can't differentiate between OOC and IC.

If we're really not going to reply to people who can't differentitate between OOC and IC, I guess that means we should stop replying to Serge, since they think Wym and Altino's issues with Thaecia are IC.

Posted: **Sat Sep 19, 2020 4:54 pm**

Gorundu wrote:
La xinga wrote:XKI is too. A lot of regions do, and that's no reason to call them ebil.

Don't talk about things you don't understand. Sending telegrams to newly founded nations is different to sending telegrams to every nation in a feeder or every WA nation in the game.

Do you raise these concerns with TBH and TGW for recruiting your members when they join the WA? Do Karma send Tim and Jakker the same telegram?

Or do these IC concerns only matter when we're trying to paint a particular region in a bad light

Also, can we not refer to IC actions in the game as 'noncery', thats a pretty gross term to be throwing around

Posted: **Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:08 pm**

Marrabuk wrote:Also raider/defender trash talks are IC unless it starts to get personal. By personal I mean, the person behind the computer/phone. For example, directly attacking the person without any IC backings. That's OOC.

That is, of course, your opinion. Others have felt differently, in both directions.

Posted: **Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:41 pm**

Daytime to Night wrote:
Gorundu wrote:Don't talk about things you don't understand. Sending telegrams to newly founded nations is different to sending telegrams to every nation in a feeder or every WA nation in the game.

Do you raise these concerns with TBH and TGW for recruiting your members when they join the WA? Do Karma send Tim and Jakker the same telegram?

Or do these IC concerns only matter when we're trying to paint a particular region in a bad light

Also, can we not refer to IC actions in the game as 'noncery', thats a pretty gross term to be throwing around

This is our recruitment policy.

Posted: **Sun Sep 20, 2020 4:14 am**

Comfed wrote:
Daytime to Night wrote:
Do you raise these concerns with TBH and TGW for recruiting your members when they join the WA? Do Karma send Tim and Jakker the same telegram?

This is our recruitment policy.

I am well aware, I am simply pointing out the inconsistency of applying retaliatory diplomatic measures (albeit soft ones and informal pressure) against Thaecia when I see no such retaliation to others that breach your policy with more regularity. If you can name an active member of TNP that Thaecia has poached then I'd be interested to hear it, but you probably don't have to look as hard for nations that the other regions I mentioned have poached.

That discretionary response is led by more than just an arbitrary application of adopted policy.

All these attempts to undermine TEP acting in its own self-interest are pretty self explanatory.

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