Imperial Japanese Navy - A Defender Military

[Yokosuka Naval District]

I don't think people are going out of their way to find something to be offended about. The rising sun flag used by the region is deeply offensive to many people today. Period. History, previous uses, modern uses aside, the connotations, especially to Chinese and Koreans, are unacceptable.

You are talking in circles, and refusing to answer any of my questions. Since plenty of other flags can also carry negative connotations. Wave the British Union Jack in certain parts of Ireland, and see what happens. Better yet, wave the Soviet flag (or display any communist imagery) in Poland, or Ukraine, or a large number of former Warsaw Pact nations.

And, for the record, you can't even argue that it is associated with any ideology; unlike Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, Japan wasn't actually pursuing any specific ideology, instead pursuing concrete imperialist goals. While I am not denying that the Empire of Japan did bad things, the vast majority of imperial powers are guilty of roughly the same things, yet their imagery isn't considered offensive to the point that it needs to be removed.

Are we talking Sank Half the Tsarist Fleet in 1905 Imperial Japan? Or Rape of Nanking Imperial Japan? Because while there's a clear difference between those two eras, they do have in common the goal of getting in on the ground floor of mercilessly subjugating China and Korea, and someone else in the thread pointed out that they're using 1942-45 rank (names? insignia? I'm not quite clear on that). The former has some bad associations, but the latter is more or less akin to starting a GP group with a Mussolini or Franco theme.

While there is a difference in time periods with Imperial Japan, I feel the difference isn't as clear-cut to the average person as Imperial Germany and Nazi Germany would be.
I would discourage him from using 1942-1945 ranks if he's trying to make a distinction.

That is why we are now using JMSDF ranks. Now we aren't time-specific.

[Wycliffe]

You are talking in circles, and refusing to answer any of my questions. Since plenty of other flags can also carry negative connotations. Wave the British Union Jack in certain parts of Ireland, and see what happens. Better yet, wave the Soviet flag (or display any communist imagery) in Poland, or Ukraine, or a large number of former Warsaw Pact nations.

You aren't waving a Union Jack though, are you? Or a hammer and sickle? This isn't about British imperialism, especially because the Irish unity debate is so complex, and ongoing. An Irish person will not recoil and be thrown into panic if you wave the union flag in their face. In trying to equate the Troubles with the systematic rape and genocide committed on a massive scale (with victims in the tens of millions) by the Japanese state under that flag, your argument fails. There are living people who suffered these crimes- comfort women in Korea and China still have yet to receive acknowledgement from the Japanese government. When the governments of the Koreas unite over the issue, you can tell just how much it matters to those who suffered.

And, for the record, you can't even argue that it is associated with any ideology; unlike Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, Japan wasn't actually pursuing any specific ideology, instead pursuing concrete imperialist goals. While I am not denying that the Empire of Japan did bad things, the vast majority of imperial powers are guilty of roughly the same things, yet their imagery isn't considered offensive to the point that it needs to be removed.

Here's a wikipedia article systematically breaking down the fascist ideology that Japan composed, pursued and advanced during the Showa era.

I don't think you understand the difference between geopolitical imperialism and genocide.

[Frattastan IV]

I don't think you understand the difference between geopolitical imperialism and genocide.

Not to ruin your line of argument or defend Japan's 20th century military legacy, but there's plenty of overlap between geopolitical imperialism and genocide (or at least atrocities on a widespread and systematic scale - Belgian Congo, etc.).

[Indo-Malaysia]

Agreed, but this doesn't go far enough.

Let's blacklist all British themed regions. They committed countless atrocities against many indigenous peoples across the globe and had immorally left many of such displaced at the time from their homelands.
Also American regions. They were important in the slave trade and treated blacks as second class for a very long time.
Oh and any Mongol regions. Can't forget them. Rape and Pillage is absolutely disgusting and the khans should be shamed for their actions.

[Wycliffe]

Agreed, but this doesn't go far enough.

Let's blacklist all British themed regions. They committed countless atrocities against many indigenous peoples across the globe and had immorally left many of such displaced at the time from their homelands.
Also American regions. They were important in the slave trade and treated blacks as second class for a very long time.
Oh and any Mongol regions. Can't forget them. Rape and Pillage is absolutely disgusting and the khans should be shamed for their actions.

You're not arguing in good faith. The atrocities committed by the Japanese under the rising sun flag are still in living national memory to thousands, if not millions, of people. I can't believe people are defending its use. It has the same associations to many people whose countries were once part of the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" as the swastika has for Europeans.

[Yokosuka Naval District]

Agreed, but this doesn't go far enough.

Let's blacklist all British themed regions. They committed countless atrocities against many indigenous peoples across the globe and had immorally left many of such displaced at the time from their homelands.
Also American regions. They were important in the slave trade and treated blacks as second class for a very long time.
Oh and any Mongol regions. Can't forget them. Rape and Pillage is absolutely disgusting and the khans should be shamed for their actions.

You're not arguing in good faith. The atrocities committed by the Japanese under the rising sun flag are still in living national memory to thousands, if not millions, of people. I can't believe people are defending its use. It has the same associations to many people whose countries were once part of the "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere" as the swastika has for Europeans.

You aren't arguing in good faith, yourself. If you were, why do you so reject our apples-to-apples comparisons?

Atrocities by the British Empire and especially the Soviet Union are also in living memory of nations today, of millions (not just thousands) of people. As I mentioned, before, Soviet imagery is even illegal in some countries, on-par with Nazi imagery.

The reason people defend this is because you are being unreasonable about it. I am not starting a fascist organisation, nor am I condoning anything that Imperial Japan even did (at least not more than media such as Space Battleship Yamato or Kantai Collection, the latter of which is even popular in China and the Philippines despite characters directly based on IJN ships).

[Wycliffe]

I cannot accept that your only argument for using the flag is that people are generally okay when it comes to Britain and the Soviet Union. There is an entirely separate argument about why the hammer and sickle is acceptable when other symbols are not- using your logic, why don't we condone the swastika when the Soviet Union was just as bad, if not worse? The rising sun flag symbolizes an authoritarian ideology centred around the racial superiority of the people who wave it. It was appropriated for the purpose of advancing the racial supremacy of the Japanese people at the expense of millions of Asian lives. This is where the line is drawn with the British Empire and the Soviet Union. Communism has produced horrific and abhorrent crimes, but not as a matter of ethnic supremacy inherent to the ideology, which is something inseparable from both Nazism and Japanese Showa statism. Communism comes in different shapes and forms around the world, is still in action in some countries, and can be debated insofar as its effectiveness and viability.

The reason, I feel I must repeat, that this flag is not okay compared to others is that unlike other symbols associated with ideologies and countries (further associated with oppression and dictators), the Japanese rising sun flag is unchangeably associated with actions and ideology that stipulate racial superiority and ethnic cleansing. The Japanese government of Emperor Hirohito and General Tojo flew this flag to show off their ideology, to which the supremacy of the Japanese and the inferiority of all other Asians was tied. It is not unlike the swastika in this regard.

If it were not for this, I would accept your points and concede the argument. But I simply cannot accept that the rising sun flag's associations with genocide and racism can be overlooked and its connotations ignored. I exhort you and your region in the strongest of terms to consider what I am saying here.

[Yokosuka Naval District]

I cannot accept that your only argument for using the flag is that people are generally okay when it comes to Britain and the Soviet Union. There is an entirely separate argument about why the hammer and sickle is acceptable when other symbols are not- using your logic, why don't we condone the swastika when the Soviet Union was just as bad, if not worse? The rising sun flag symbolizes an authoritarian ideology centred around the racial superiority of the people who wave it. It was appropriated for the purpose of advancing the racial supremacy of the Japanese people at the expense of millions of Asian lives. This is where the line is drawn with the British Empire and the Soviet Union. Communism has produced horrific and abhorrent crimes, but not as a matter of ethnic supremacy inherent to the ideology, which is something inseparable from both Nazism and Japanese Showa statism. Communism comes in different shapes and forms around the world, is still in action in some countries, and can be debated insofar as its effectiveness and viability.

The reason, I feel I must repeat, that this flag is not okay compared to others is that unlike other symbols associated with ideologies and countries (further associated with oppression and dictators), the Japanese rising sun flag is unchangeably associated with actions and ideology that stipulate racial superiority and ethnic cleansing. The Japanese government of Emperor Hirohito and General Tojo flew this flag to show off their ideology, to which the supremacy of the Japanese and the inferiority of all other Asians was tied. It is not unlike the swastika in this regard.

If it were not for this, I would accept your points and concede the argument. But I simply cannot accept that the rising sun flag's associations with genocide and racism can be overlooked and its connotations ignored. I exhort you and your region in the strongest of terms to consider what I am saying here.

Umm....

[Wycliffe]

Umm....

Did you even take the time to read what I wrote?

Communism has produced horrific and abhorrent crimes, but not as a matter of ethnic supremacy inherent to the ideology, which is something inseparable from both Nazism and Japanese Showa statism.

Genocide is not inherent to Communism. Say it with me. Genocide is not inherent to Communism. Stalin was a monster. Mao was a monster. Communism is terrible. But genocide is not inherent to Communism.

Genocide is separable from Communism, as an ideology. Genocide is inseparable from Nazism, and it inseparable from Japan's fascist ideology of racial supremacy.

No "umm". No whataboutism. That is the simple answer here, and it seems to be one you fail to comprehend. It seems to me that you are more interested in talking about how bad Communism is than defending your use of a flag tied to a genocidal ideology its regime.

[Yokosuka Naval District]

Umm....

Did you even take the time to read what I wrote?

Communism has produced horrific and abhorrent crimes, but not as a matter of ethnic supremacy inherent to the ideology, which is something inseparable from both Nazism and Japanese Showa statism.

Genocide is not inherent to Communism. Say it with me. Genocide is not inherent to Communism. Stalin was a monster. Mao was a monster. Communism is terrible. But genocide is not inherent to Communism.

Genocide is separable from Communism, as an ideology. Genocide is inseparable from Nazism, and it inseparable from Japan's fascist ideology of racial supremacy.

No "umm". No whataboutism. That is the simple answer here, and it seems to be one you fail to comprehend. It seems to me that you are more interested in talking about how bad Communism is than defending your use of a flag tied to a genocidal ideology its regime.

No, I am proving a point that your judgement is skewed, and, at this point, you are doing nothing but talking in circles.

As cited, before, both the Japanese flag and naval ensign date before WWII, and are still currently used. They have both been in continuous use since the 1800s (save for the period of occupation). The way you are acting, though, is as if they are associated with a specific time period and ideology (like the Nazi German and Soviet Union flags), rather than as a constant. The whole point of citing the British Union Jack was to point this out, that it isn't merely a symbol of the time.

[Aclion]

Genocide is separable from Communism, as an ideology. Genocide is inseparable from Nazism, and it inseparable from Japan's fascist ideology of racial supremacy

What your missing is that these symbols aren't inherent to the fascist regime but have been used by Japan since before the Meiji reformation.

Genocide is not an inherent part of being Japanese.

[Armaros]

Genocide is separable from Communism, as an ideology. Genocide is inseparable from Nazism, and it inseparable from Japan's fascist ideology of racial supremacy

What your missing is that these symbols aren't inherent to the fascist regime but have been used by Japan since before the Meiji reformation.

Genocide is not an inherent part of being Japanese.

...No one said that. What was said is that these symbols were proudly used while the Japanese Empire did what they did. And yes, the symbols have been used long before that, but so were several symbols the nazis used. You can't erase the horrible associations people have with these symbols you want to use. It stands for imperialism and the atrocities committed by the japanese empire.

[Aclion]

...No one said that. What was said is that these symbols were proudly used while the Japanese Empire did what they did.

It is implied. as it is the logical conclusion of the positions he has taken. He has already stated that it is not enough for atrocities to be committed under a symbol, as they have been under communist symbols. The symbol must be inseparable from the atrocity, in his argument, genocide. But these flags are symbols of Japan, and have remained so regardless of ideology or regime, as such they are inseparable only from being Japanese.
Therefore the only way to maintain his objection to the use of these symbols without contradiction is to argue that being Japanese is inseparable from committing genocide.

yes, the symbols have been used long before that, but so were several symbols the nazis used. You can't erase the horrible associations people have with these symbols you want to use. It stands for imperialism and the atrocities committed by the japanese empire.

Symbols like the swastika and SS bolt are(usually) symbols of the ideology of Nazism, not symbols of Germany. The only German government that used the Swastika in any official context was the Nazi regime. These symbols are offensive because they are used to promote and celebrate that regime and it's ideas. You can see this as use in other contexts, for example the use of the swastika in asiatic religions is still acceptable, because it is not being used to promote the Nazi regime or its ideas.

For the same reason Japan does not need to erase atrocities committed under the flags of Japan in order to use them, because these symbols are not exclusive to the regime that committed these atrocities, and no-one in Japan is using these symbols to celebrate that regime or its ideas. The only argument that's been brought up in favor of this accusation is the observation that they are using these symbols, but that is not evidence of what is being accused and it has made for a circular argument. Of course they are using those symbols, they're the symbols of Japan and it's military, and they're the military of Japan.

[Yokosuka Naval District]

So, with that out of the way, I should announce that we are doing a new recruiting programme, and now accepting new recruits. Interested parties should inquire with either myself or the PR Officer, or inquire on our Discord.

[Bengal and Assam]

Pakistan killed 3 million people in Bangladesh apparently, and also oppressed Bangladeshis during its occupation of the country by outlawing its culture and language in the name of religion. Pakistan should outlaw its flag since it began oppressing Bengalis ever since it was formed, and ever since Pakistan began to use that flag.....(flying the flag of Pakistan is outlawed in Bangladesh, I kno coz I live there)

The same cannot be said for Japan, since the Rising Sun flag was used waaaaay before the Japanese began to treat other Asians as their inferior serfs. The Rising Sun Flag is a part of pre-war Japanese history and shouldn't be outlawed.....

[Yokosuka Naval District]

As an announcement, we have a new embassy policy, outlining allies and associates with the Imperial Japanese Navy, and regions under our protection.

See publicity here, if you are interested in either allying with the IJN, or either signing-up as either an associate region or seeking our protection. All regions besides the listed prohibitions are welcome to sign-up.

And, of course, we are always seeking new recruits. Sign-up today!

[Durkadurkiranistan II]

It's not helpful to dissuade connotations with World War II when their flag is this:

(Image)

The rising sun flag is found deeply offensive by many people, especially in Korea and China, where its populations were victim to a brutal campaign of occupation, repression and genocide waged by the Imperial Japanese regime. The official governments of South and North Korea have officially protested its use by the Japanese government in modern times.

Ditching the rising sun and associations with the worst form of Japanese imperialism might be a good start for improving your PR.

Well that's nice, but it's not controversial or offensive here in Japan (I live in Tokyo IRL). The IJF is still flown by Japanese naval ships, and predates WW2 by centuries, dating back to (at least) the Edo period. Japanese imperialism had a civilizing force on much of East and Southeast Asia. Ask the Taiwanese about it.

[Lyrical International Brigade]

...Japanese imperialism had a civilizing force on much of East and Southeast Asia. Ask the Taiwanese about it.

"Belgian imperialism had a civilizing force on much of central Africa. Ask the Congolese about it."

[Qilai]

Japanese imperialism had a civilizing force on much of East and Southeast Asia. Ask the Taiwanese about it.

Uh huh. Try asking the rest of the Chinese about this "civilizing force."

[Yokosuka Naval District]

Sodding drop it, already. This thread is not about the meaning of IJN symbolism; I have given my position on it, and that is the official party line.

Rather, this thread is about our organisation. And, right now, we are accepting new individual recruits and requests for associate and protected regions.

[Wycliffe]

It's not helpful to dissuade connotations with World War II when their flag is this:

(Image)

The rising sun flag is found deeply offensive by many people, especially in Korea and China, where its populations were victim to a brutal campaign of occupation, repression and genocide waged by the Imperial Japanese regime. The official governments of South and North Korea have officially protested its use by the Japanese government in modern times.

Ditching the rising sun and associations with the worst form of Japanese imperialism might be a good start for improving your PR.

Well that's nice, but it's not controversial or offensive here in Japan (I live in Tokyo IRL). The IJF is still flown by Japanese naval ships, and predates WW2 by centuries, dating back to (at least) the Edo period. Japanese imperialism had a civilizing force on much of East and Southeast Asia. Ask the Taiwanese about it.

While I appreciate your return specifically to comment on this, Durk, that's possibly one of the most tone-deaf statements I've ever heard on the subject. Japanese imperialism was ethnocentric to the point of genocide, and has created lasting wounds that still scar its victim nations today.

With that, I'll take my leave and end the derailment, as the OP has so kindly requested.

[Glen-Rhodes]

by looking at the OP it looks like they are going for a late 1800s version of the IJN and at the latest WW1 so crying fascist does not really make sense in this situation.

Gotcha, so it was just an imperialist force that sought the subjugation of other Asian peoples.

To be fair, the only East Asian country that didn't try to do this at some point in history is Korea...

Anyways, this is all kind of nonsense. All imperialism, throughout all of history, has been people trying to subjugate other people. Yet imperialist imagery has been the #1 inspiration for like.. 90% of all raider groups in this game. Some Japanime-themed defender region hardly deserves the amount of flack they're getting, when nobody seems to bat an eye at any other imperialism-themed group.

[Yokosuka Naval District]

As a reminder, we have a Discord. Even if you have no intention of joining, or are a member of another military, feel free to join! We have other activities.

[Yokosuka Naval District]

The Imperial Japanese Navy is now proud to announce that we are open for alliances with other defender militaries. Our embassy policy is still in place; if you aren't on the prohibited list, commanders, don't hesitate to request embassies.

This also applies to any region wishing to join as an associate of the IJN, or wish to seek our protection.