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GP Embassy of the New Pacific Order: News and Communication

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
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Unibot III
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5543
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:09 am

Lord Dominator wrote:
Draganisia wrote:Yea don't expect the NPO to change its core culture just because some like you don't like it's history.

The truth is no one's history is completely clean.

Especially when looking at Raider and Invader regions such as The Black Hawks and Osiris.

Ah yes, TBH which has one GCR coup attempt ~7 years ago & Osiris which has 0 GCR coup attempts, as compared to the NPO which had one in the last 2 years and many many before that.
Much sordid history to be had.


It's historically, a co-conspirator in coups in TSP and Lazarus. As Glen has said, TBH has had continued ill intentions for TSP that carries into modernity. You can't really complain about Milograd ejecting TSPers, when TBH supplied the endorsements and did the ejecting. You can't cry "shame!" on Adytus (Feux) and co., when Jakker was Liz Lemons, the original Adytus. Lemons gave Osirans a lot of trouble behind the scenes. It's hardly surprising people who try to destroy regions, also have tried to attack GCRs for shits and giggles. What's surprising is people actually believe TBH's word.

Osiris has had many coup attempts... of itself. :P Five in one year once, in fact.

I'll note you're excusing TBH for old activity, but not NPO. Much of NPO's imperial activity is old enough to apply for a G1 driving license, it's just... it's not actions they really denounce. Same goes for TBH. They're similar organizations as they were then, with similar internal cultures. NPO will be NPO, invaders will be invaders.
Last edited by Unibot III on Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:12 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Cormactopia Prime
Minister
 
Posts: 2014
Founded: Sep 21, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:12 am

Unibot III wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:Ah yes, TBH which has one GCR coup attempt ~7 years ago & Osiris which has 0 GCR coup attempts, as compared to the NPO which had one in the last 2 years and many many before that.
Much sordid history to be had.


It's historically, a co-conspirator in coups in TSP and Lazarus. As Glen has said, TBH has had continued ill intentions for TSP that carries into modernity. You can't really complain about Milograd ejecting TSPers, when TBH supplied the endorsements and did the ejecting. You can't cry "shame!" on Adytus (Feux) and co., when Jakker was Liz Lemons, the original Adytus. Lemons gave Osirans a lot of trouble behind the scenes. It's hardly surprising people who try to destroy regions, also have tried to attack GCRs for shits and giggles. What's surprising is people actually believe TBH's word.

Osiris has had many coup attempts... of itself. :P Five in one year once, in fact.

Back to carrying water for the NPO again? I thought you'd realized what a mistake that was during the PRL era.
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Lord Dominator
Senator
 
Posts: 3811
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Lord Dominator » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:20 am

Unibot III wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:Ah yes, TBH which has one GCR coup attempt ~7 years ago & Osiris which has 0 GCR coup attempts, as compared to the NPO which had one in the last 2 years and many many before that.
Much sordid history to be had.


It's historically, a co-conspirator in coups in TSP and Lazarus. As Glen has said, TBH has had continued ill intentions for TSP that carries into modernity. You can't really complain about Milograd ejecting TSPers, when TBH supplied the endorsements and did the ejecting. You can't cry "shame!" on Adytus (Feux) and co., when Jakker was Liz Lemons, the original Adytus. Lemons gave Osirans a lot of trouble behind the scenes. It's hardly surprising people who try to destroy regions, also have tried to attack GCRs for shits and giggles. What's surprising is people actually believe TBH's word.

Thank you for TSP & Laz, but I'm not really sure where you're getting the idea I'm complaining about what Milograd did..., or crying more shame on Feux when the point of the comparison was relative scale of sordid coup history.
Osiris has had many coup attempts... of itself. :P Five in one year once, in fact.

Because that's totally relevant in a comparison with the NPO
[/quote]I'll note you're excusing TBH for old activity, but not NPO. Much of NPO's imperial activity is old enough to apply for a G1 driving license, it's just... it's not actions they really denounce. Same goes for TBH. They're similar organizations as they were then, with similar internal cultures. NPO will be NPO, invaders will be invaders.[/quote]
Not really excusing so much as noting relative scale between the two, again.
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Lord Dominator
Senator
 
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Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Lord Dominator » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:21 am

Glen-Rhodes wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:Ah yes, TBH which has one GCR coup attempt ~7 years ago & Osiris which has 0 GCR coup attempts, as compared to the NPO which had one in the last 2 years and many many before that.
Much sordid history to be had.


What if Souls had also groomed someone to coup TSP, supported them infiltrating, and strategized about committing espionage?

It sounds to me like a certain joke we let run finally came to the punchline.
Osiris Vizier of WA AffairsDee Vytherov-SkollvaldrGameplay Ambassador of ForestLieutenant in The Black HawksRecruitment and Outreach Director of Lazarus

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Jakker
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Posts: 1709
Founded: May 17, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Jakker » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:23 am

Unibot III wrote:Lemons gave Osirans a lot of trouble behind the scenes.


I'm not quite sure what this means. She was a great citizen and gave a lot to Osiris. She was kind to everyone and was a valued member of the community. Furthermore, I later came back to Osiris and gave a lot as Jakker.
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Drop Your Pants
Minister
 
Posts: 3408
Founded: Apr 17, 2005
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Drop Your Pants » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:26 am

Lord Dominator wrote:It sounds to me like a certain joke we let run finally came to the punchline.

Souls is really Sedge? :P
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Lord Dominator
Senator
 
Posts: 3811
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Lord Dominator » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:28 am

Drop Your Pants wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:It sounds to me like a certain joke we let run finally came to the punchline.

Souls is really Sedge? :P

Thar would be hilarious, yes
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Unibot III
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5543
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:40 am

Cormactopia Prime wrote:
Unibot III wrote:
It's historically, a co-conspirator in coups in TSP and Lazarus. As Glen has said, TBH has had continued ill intentions for TSP that carries into modernity. You can't really complain about Milograd ejecting TSPers, when TBH supplied the endorsements and did the ejecting. You can't cry "shame!" on Adytus (Feux) and co., when Jakker was Liz Lemons, the original Adytus. Lemons gave Osirans a lot of trouble behind the scenes. It's hardly surprising people who try to destroy regions, also have tried to attack GCRs for shits and giggles. What's surprising is people actually believe TBH's word.

Osiris has had many coup attempts... of itself. :P Five in one year once, in fact.

Back to carrying water for the NPO again? I thought you'd realized what a mistake that was during the PRL era.


Excuse me, Lieutenant. :roll:

What bothers me is invaders are trying to whitewash their own history. TSP is being made out to be a black sheep for not wanting to put its lot in with TBH, but it's perfectible reasonable: TBH has about an equivalent history of trying to screw with TSP as NPO. TBH has banjected TSPers, organized espionage and black ops against TSP. NPO has, at arms length, overseen the banjecting TSPers, undermined the region politically, and tried to force its hand with the MPA (The first NPO-attempted coup of TSP was actually in 2004 with Francos Spain who perpetrated libel against its delegate, painting her as a racist.)

The truth is all democratic GCRs ought to be skeptical of getting in bed with TBH in a fight with the NPO, their history is not particularly better than the NPO. Their intentions are historically not much different than the NPO. That places the South Pacific (and the Rejected Realms) in an awkward position of having every reason to want to participate in a war effort against NPO, with few credible allies leading it. Who is in the war effort? Europeia? Who was the one of the worst allies of TSP imaginable. (Balder was the worst.) Osiris? Who organized espionage against TSP. Lazarus? A dictatorship now run by a personal enemy of TSP who simply had the foresight to flip at the right moment, after assisting a coup of a TSP ally. The war effort is a gallery of the who's who in the "Fucking with TSP" Olympics.

Jakker wrote:I'm not quite sure what this means. She was a great citizen and gave a lot to Osiris. She was kind to everyone and was a valued member of the community. Furthermore, I later came back to Osiris and gave a lot as Jakker.


You used to drive the administration crazy. They knew you were infiltrating Osiris, but they didn't know your identity and they didn't have enough proof to convict you.

Thank you for TSP & Laz, but I'm not really sure where you're getting the idea I'm complaining about what Milograd did..., or crying more shame on Feux when the point of the comparison was relative scale of sordid coup history.


TBH's involvement in the griefing of TSP was more central to the coup than NPO's. In a relative scale, TBH comes out on top there. They supplied troops, they did the dirty work. Both regions have likely been involved with a handful of various coups and coup attempts over 15 years - I would give the NPO, the edge, over TBH and LKE/TNI. (The Farkers and The Empire get an honourable mention.) But it's just a relative scale. TBH is typically not up to any good when it comes to Game-Created Regions, same goes for New Pacific Order.
Last edited by Unibot III on Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
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Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
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✯ Duty is Eternal, Justice is Imminent: UDL

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Lord Dominator
Senator
 
Posts: 3811
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Lord Dominator » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:48 am

Unibot III wrote:
Thank you for TSP & Laz, but I'm not really sure where you're getting the idea I'm complaining about what Milograd did..., or crying more shame on Feux when the point of the comparison was relative scale of sordid coup history.


TBH's involvement in the griefing of TSP was more central to the coup than NPO's. In a relative scale, TBH comes out on top there. They supplied troops, they did the dirty work. Both regions have likely been involved with a handful of various coups and coup attempts over 15 years - I would give the NPO, the edge, over TBH and LKE/TNI. (The Farkers and The Empire get an honourable mention.) But it's just a relative scale. TBH is typically not up to any good when it comes to Game-Created Regions, same goes for New Pacific Order.

Uh huh, and yet my original point was still just about the relative scale of GCR coup stuff between the three, which you yourself just said goes to the NPO.
Last edited by Lord Dominator on Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jakker
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 1709
Founded: May 17, 2011
Democratic Socialists

Postby Jakker » Fri Jan 04, 2019 11:58 am

Unibot III wrote:
Jakker wrote:I'm not quite sure what this means. She was a great citizen and gave a lot to Osiris. She was kind to everyone and was a valued member of the community. Furthermore, I later came back to Osiris and gave a lot as Jakker.


You used to drive the administration crazy. They knew you were infiltrating Osiris, but they didn't know your identity and they didn't have enough proof to convict you.


If that is your definition of causing the community trouble, then I think I was pretty harmless lol
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Imkiville
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 21
Founded: Feb 06, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Imkiville » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:12 pm

Unibot III wrote:Lazarus? A dictatorship now run by a personal enemy of TSP who simply had the foresight to flip at the right moment, after assisting a coup of a TSP ally.

I know you're out of touch since your near universally ostracised but you really should find out actual facts and not spout any old rubbish that plops into your head. I'm not a personal enemy of TSP, our dislike of each other now is no secret but I was dedicated and did good work for TSP for a long time, I'm not banned from there and Lazarus has no ill will against TSP, we are maintaining friendly relations with them. Also good luck finding anyone actually actively in Lazarus who would call it a dictatorship. :roll:

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Cormactopia Prime
Minister
 
Posts: 2014
Founded: Sep 21, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Cormactopia Prime » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:30 pm

Unibot III wrote:What bothers me is invaders are trying to whitewash their own history. TSP is being made out to be a black sheep for not wanting to put its lot in with TBH, but it's perfectible reasonable...

I'm not sure where you're gathering that any of us care what the South Pacific does or doesn't do. People like Glen-Rhodes and Roavin have been carrying water for the NPO since the day the news of the NPO's recent subversive activities broke. No one is beside themselves with disappointment that TSP hasn't joined the war effort, or that TSP doesn't like our regions. Newsflash: Some of us don't particularly like TSP either due to TSP's past behavior toward us. If they would prefer to be neutral, while Glen and Roavin continue to defend the NPO and engage in whataboutism, I think most of us are fine with that. No one's losing any sleep over TSP not being part of the war effort, and no one is anymore hostile to them than was already the case.

I don't know what to tell you about the other regions involved in the war effort. The NPO declared war on TBH. NPO agents engaged in serious subversion and a coup attempt against Osiris. The NPO knowingly concealed Feux's alternate identity as Adytus from Lazarus, even at a time when the NPO was involved in the peacekeeping effort and Feux was being considered for a peacekeeper role. On top of that, the NPO actively administered Task Force Lazarus, an operation designed to plunge Lazarus into civil war and which succeeded in demolishing Lazarus' government and community at the time. These regions aren't going to kindly stop fighting a war against the NPO so TSP can feel better about opposing the NPO, especially when TSP in all likelihood wouldn't be anymore opposed to the NPO than it is now. It's none of these regions' fault that TSP has let people like Glen and Roavin turn TSP into a near-pariah with their behavior toward other regions. Maybe if TSP actually got more involved in opposing the NPO, it could rebuild some of the relationships Glen and Roavin have systematically destroyed over the years. If they choose not to do that, that's on them. Again, I don't think anyone on our side is losing any sleep over it one way or the other. It would be nice to see other TSPers assert their independence from Glen and Roavin though.

Unibot III wrote:
Jakker wrote:I'm not quite sure what this means. She was a great citizen and gave a lot to Osiris. She was kind to everyone and was a valued member of the community. Furthermore, I later came back to Osiris and gave a lot as Jakker.


You used to drive the administration crazy. They knew you were infiltrating Osiris, but they didn't know your identity and they didn't have enough proof to convict you.

Osiris' primary administrator at the time didn't need to be driven crazy, he had already arrived at his destination long before that.
Last edited by Cormactopia Prime on Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:39 pm, edited 7 times in total.
Cormac Skollvaldr
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The Seeker of Power
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 114
Founded: Oct 29, 2004
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The Seeker of Power » Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:47 pm

Unibot III wrote:What bothers me is invaders are trying to whitewash their own history


I would change "invaders" for "whomever is trying to manipulate the GP masses" and then I'd have a perfect description of many events in the last few years. Add toxicity, OOC attacks and you have a ClonedGP!
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New Rogernomics
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9013
Founded: Aug 22, 2006
Left-wing Utopia

Postby New Rogernomics » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:16 pm

Unibot III wrote:[...]Lazarus? A dictatorship[...]
Really? This again.

Current Lazarus has some similarities with the Humane Republic, with the notable exception being an elected delegacy. It might make it less democratic than some regions, but you'd hardly be able to call it a dictatorship.
  • The Delegate appoints the Regional Officers/Security Council, and their Cabinet.
  • All appointments (including deputy ministers) have to be approved by the assembly.
  • The Delegate may be removed by a 3/4 majority vote of the assembly.
  • Requires the assembly to vote, in order to go to war or make peace.
*returns to hiding in the bushes*

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Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6145
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:30 pm

Glen-Rhodes wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:Ah yes, TBH which has one GCR coup attempt ~7 years ago & Osiris which has 0 GCR coup attempts, as compared to the NPO which had one in the last 2 years and many many before that.
Much sordid history to be had.


What if Souls had also groomed someone to coup TSP, supported them infiltrating, and strategized about committing espionage?


Feel free to source that.
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Killer Kitty
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 392
Founded: Oct 08, 2005
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Killer Kitty » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:37 pm

Unibot III wrote:Lazarus? A dictatorship now run by a personal enemy of TSP who simply had the foresight to flip at the right moment, after assisting a coup of a TSP ally. The war effort is a gallery of the who's who in the "Fucking with TSP" Olympics.


I agree. We should all just finish what we started and coup TSP. Lazarus can even declare war since TSP did kinda sorta invade it, kinda sorta backed an NPO take over plot (looking at you Naka), and kinda sorta tried to turn it back into an NPO Defender puppet state.

Any seconds?
Last edited by Killer Kitty on Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Marthizer
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 2
Founded: May 20, 2017
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Marthizer » Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:43 pm

It's not a coup! It's just us buying out TSP! :D

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Galiantus III
Diplomat
 
Posts: 505
Founded: Jan 23, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Galiantus III » Fri Jan 04, 2019 3:11 pm

Unibot III wrote:The truth is all democratic GCRs ought to be skeptical of getting in bed with TBH in a fight with the NPO, their history is not particularly better than the NPO. Their intentions are historically not much different than the NPO. That places the South Pacific (and the Rejected Realms) in an awkward position of having every reason to want to participate in a war effort against NPO, with few credible allies leading it. Who is in the war effort? Europeia? Who was the one of the worst allies of TSP imaginable. (Balder was the worst.) Osiris? Who organized espionage against TSP. Lazarus? A dictatorship now run by a personal enemy of TSP who simply had the foresight to flip at the right moment, after assisting a coup of a TSP ally. The war effort is a gallery of the who's who in the "Fucking with TSP" Olympics.

First of all, Unibot, your ideas about democracy and NS are entirely incorrect. The WA delegate is a military and security position much more than a government position. Second, part of the issue here is that, unlike the NPO, TBH is completely open and honest about what they do and have done. They are raiders. They invade and they coup, and they are loyal to their allies. That is very different than the history of the NPO, which has attempted to coup regions they were allies with, tried to cover it up, then only responded to try and save face when found out. Let's also not forget this is not the first time they have been called out on this and pretended to change. Third, had Imki not taken Lazarus, the region would have been transitioned to NPO control, amid cheers from the majority of gameplay; all because the NPO was willing to exploit the rules of a Lazarus democracy. A historian and moralist defender like you should recognize that such conquest by the NPO is a direct threat to all GCRs - especially democratic ones.
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Killer Kitty
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 392
Founded: Oct 08, 2005
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Killer Kitty » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:14 pm

Galiantus III wrote:A historian and moralist defender like you should recognize that such conquest by the NPO is a direct threat to all GCRs - especially democratic ones.


You should know by now that, as a so called "Moralist Defender", Unibot doesn't actually care about democracy in the GCRs. All he actually cares about is GP alignment, and if you're a Defender, then it really doesn't matter what your system of government is.

Unibot had zero issues when Lazarus was an outright Defender dictatorship under the PRL. He only takes issue with Imki because her government doesn't side with Defenders.

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Glen-Rhodes
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8983
Founded: Jun 25, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Glen-Rhodes » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:15 pm

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
Glen-Rhodes wrote:
What if Souls had also groomed someone to coup TSP, supported them infiltrating, and strategized about committing espionage?


Feel free to source that.


Well, for starters...

Code: Select all
Souls 21-Feb-18 09:24 AM
@Avakael @Lord Savaer what do I have to do to get one of you two to dislike TSP on a serious level
I couldn't possibly bring myself to put up with half the folks there long enough to try and destroy it, but you've always seemed a bit more...driven ?

Avakael 21-Feb-18 09:25 AM
Neither of us would even be welcome in the place.
the only GCR that gives me any particular negative reaction is Osiris
thanks to Cormac telling me to fuck off when I last asked him to ban Sector ZYX

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:27 AM
well duh

Avakael 21-Feb-18 09:27 AM
but I feel like we kinda got unintentional revenge for that

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:27 AM
that's the point of infiltrating
you think they'd let me in as me either? ?

Avakael 21-Feb-18 09:28 AM
Cormac last resigned the Pharaohship, apparently, because he was massively paranoid about Kemi.
who is a Dion.
so, lol.

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:28 AM
I mean
anyone has plenty of grounds to be paranoid about kemi

Avakael 21-Feb-18 09:28 AM
dunk'd by the mother in law.

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:28 AM
even those on her good side got stalked.
so

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 09:28 AM
i havent seen kemi since like april of last year
I didnt know she was back in NS

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:29 AM
comes around every now and then

Avakael 21-Feb-18 09:29 AM
I don't believe she is back in NS
this was a long time ago
6 months or more
she got busy with school.

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 09:29 AM
yeah, said she'd come back in november
or something

Avakael 21-Feb-18 09:30 AM
well, if she came back, she'd be in Unknown.
so...
¯\(ツ)/¯

Altino 21-Feb-18 09:31 AM
We're lovely in Osiris now, Ava. Honest. :)

Avakael 21-Feb-18 09:32 AM
that's what they said the last time
and the time before that
and the time before that
and the time before --that--

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 09:32 AM
remind me to not visit osiris
?

Avakael 21-Feb-18 09:33 AM
when Earth22 counts as a "good leader" in the history of your region, you're fuuuucked.

Lord Savaer 21-Feb-18 09:33 AM
Actually Souls, I pretty much hate all GCRs, so... The only ones remotely close to having any of my favor is TEP and TP.

Avakael 21-Feb-18 09:33 AM
and then there's that point.

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 09:33 AM
true, but its not as bad as hydra, hydra got stuck with me

Avakael 21-Feb-18 09:33 AM
Savaer just sort of fucking hates GCRs
¯\(ツ)/¯

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:33 AM
well TEP just treated with TSP and TRR and there's a clause that that treaty comes before all other ones ?(edited)

Avakael 21-Feb-18 09:34 AM
supremacy clauses are just smart

Lord Savaer 21-Feb-18 09:34 AM
You aren't a psychopathic birch that sucks the souls from men to use as your personal motherfucking assault weapons, McM

Avakael 21-Feb-18 09:34 AM
and if anything, TRR's the one that me and Kshrlmnt sort of get along with
albeit purely out of context.

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 09:35 AM
No, Im just a cunt

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:35 AM
TRR is not bad, besides having Unibot around, though not much they can do about it (though, IMHO, they could be suppressing every post he makes)

Lord Savaer 21-Feb-18 09:35 AM
I could quote something from a bunch of years ago about TRR, but that would probably induce Kurosaki flashbacks in Koth

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:35 AM
but they're still defender >.>

Altino 21-Feb-18 09:35 AM
Yeahhhhh. Osiris doesn't have a ton of bright, shining beacons in leadership history.
I'll give you that.

Lord Savaer 21-Feb-18 09:36 AM
Ya think.
The fact y'all had Earth is enough I didn't give O even a snowball's chance of my interest

August 21-Feb-18 09:36 AM
Could have had me from day one if they had not banned me. ¯\(ツ)/¯

Altino 21-Feb-18 09:37 AM
Merited.
You're banned in Osi..? You're banned from the weirdest places.
It does not make sense to me.

August 21-Feb-18 09:37 AM
Not permanently. I was one of the first in the region when it was created, but Zao banjected me a couple weeks in for... who even knows why.
He probably does not remember.
I am sure I could walk back in any time.

Altino 21-Feb-18 09:38 AM
Lol. If you'd stayed in the beginning, you'd be gone by now.
Maybe several times over.
Fact.

August 21-Feb-18 09:38 AM
Assuredly so.

Altino 21-Feb-18 09:39 AM
Why doesn't Zao like you, dude?

August 21-Feb-18 09:39 AM
Sigh. DMs, I guess.

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 09:40 AM
Ive already found my GCR home away from home

Altino 21-Feb-18 09:40 AM
TNP? ^-^

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 09:40 AM
fuck no
lazarus baby

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:41 AM
voluntarily listening to lamb and funk?

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 09:41 AM
I might also occasionally shitpost horrifying memes

Altino 21-Feb-18 09:42 AM
I don't think you really have to listen to anybody to be in Laz. Just post memes and stuff.

Lord Savaer 21-Feb-18 09:42 AM
I think I'm too sober for this part of the convo
Why did you want me and Ava to dislike TSP, anyways, Souls?

Lord Savaer 21-Feb-18 09:43 AM
I thought I was pretty clear by this point I hate independents and detest fendas...

Avakael 21-Feb-18 09:43 AM
well
they're both of those. :v

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:43 AM
because I've love little more on this site than to see most of the known names in their adminship purged from the region

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:44 AM
and yet I can't bring myself to go through months or years of putting up with them to do so ?
From their admin team to their ministers
burn them all out

Avakael 21-Feb-18 09:44 AM
in short, it's one of the GCRs where the imperialists use to have a lot of influence, and they don't anymore because TSP didn't want have anything to do with them anymore

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 09:44 AM
maybe there's something juicy in all those chatlogs we stole

August 21-Feb-18 09:44 AM
"I hate independents" Ouch.

Avakael 21-Feb-18 09:44 AM
and it wasn't a friendly split.

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:44 AM
and build an outright invader-oriented GCR on the region's charred ashes(edited)

Lord Savaer 21-Feb-18 09:45 AM
So, you're hoping I'd go deep cover to do it and pray I don't indulge my demon.

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:45 AM
and the only way that's going to happen thoroughly enough to burn all the rot there is to forcibly cleanse it

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 09:45 AM
I just convinced tawks that the ragerium imperium should process all the information we stole, to prepare for possible release

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:45 AM
not external pressure or internal strife would do more than burn half of it
letting the other half thrive

Avakael 21-Feb-18 09:46 AM
they do have some extra special cunts, though

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:46 AM
needs to be bleached
blank slated
reset

Avakael 21-Feb-18 09:46 AM
Glen Rhodes reminds me of Hadisthe without a sense of humour.

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:46 AM
Glen Rhodes is the definition of a corrupt admin

Lord Savaer 21-Feb-18 09:46 AM
Mm. A raider purist GCR does sound enticing.

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:46 AM
breaks their rules and gets away with it because he's admin
hence, the not-really-recent-anymore internal coup attempt
direct response to his corrupt adminship

Avakael 21-Feb-18 09:47 AM
I wasn't aware of the corrupt stuff
I thought he was just an extremely politically toxic defender that was 100% unapologetic about it

Lord Savaer 21-Feb-18 09:47 AM
Hmm.

Avakael 21-Feb-18 09:48 AM
he'll last forever, though

Altino 21-Feb-18 09:48 AM
Maybe. But we would feel a lot better if he went and lasted forever someplace else.

Lord Savaer 21-Feb-18 09:49 AM
Oh, @August you can blame who started the independent movement. I fucking hate anyone and everything following stuff Earth22 created and pushed.

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:49 AM
https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=240650&p=27547548&hilit=glen+rhodes+corrupt#p27547483
tried to get rid of glen and use a new forum
did not last long

Lord Savaer 21-Feb-18 09:49 AM
That's why I fucking hate the places she was involved with, the independent concept, TRR, Osiris all of it.

August 21-Feb-18 09:50 AM
Believe me, I have no great love for independentism in general. The core idea of R/D for the sake of foreign policy is something I always liked, though.

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:50 AM
IIRC a big part was basically glen breaks forum rules about behavior offsite regularly but never gets punished because he's admin

Lord Savaer 21-Feb-18 09:50 AM
Fucking Euro, her fucking clones

August 21-Feb-18 09:50 AM
That is why I, y'know, set up an independent military.

Lord Savaer 21-Feb-18 09:50 AM
If I could I would burn it all to nothing

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 09:50 AM
independents are treasonous

August 21-Feb-18 09:50 AM
(To be clear, I am not offended or anything.)

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 09:50 AM
pick a side

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:50 AM
He is of course, also toxic as fuck
but specifically here he was cited for being corrupt
I wouldn't have minded this TSP as much
but they, of course, lost the seat
and then you've got the Roavin/Tim/Escade trifecta of yuck

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 09:54 AM
you just made me puke souls
wtf

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:55 AM
So yeah
I've even personally help lead the new region, for sure

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 09:55 AM
id sign up for an invader GCR

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:55 AM
I just cannot bring myself to go through putting up with the region long enough to end up in a position high enough to take advantage of

Altino 21-Feb-18 09:55 AM
Ugh. I'm getting tired of the word Toxic on NS. It's losing value. There are people on this site who will just literally suck the soul right out of your life. Like take your breath away. Everybody and their momma gets accused of being toxic these days. I feel like it should get saved for people who've tried a little harder to earn it.

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 09:56 AM
offer up my years of ....not really experience, or wisdom
memes
my years of memes

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:56 AM
I mean, Glen is pretty bad
he's not DC or Rifty or something, AFAIK
but he's corrupt, and he's nasty, and he's full of crap

August 21-Feb-18 09:56 AM
"I feel like it should get saved for people who've tried a little harder to earn it." <- I can get behind that.

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:56 AM
I think he fits it nicely.
I think those worse deserve something worse

Altino 21-Feb-18 09:57 AM
Glen is a dick, no doubt. And he should be gotten rid of, certainly. But no one is festering at night over what Glen is doing. Who even cares what Glen is doing. He's cocky and annoying and almost completely safe to ignore.

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:58 AM
I was about ready to move on from disliking roavin, as a side note
until the thing in the TSP thread

Altino 21-Feb-18 09:59 AM
Roavin has turned into the brainchild of Tim and Unibot. And what a mix.

Souls 21-Feb-18 09:59 AM
specifically the bit where he later basically said offsite that he totally phrased it that way on purpose to trigger me.

Souls 21-Feb-18 10:00 AM
intentionally made a post that would be read as accusing me of srs stff, but could also be denied as me overreacting for saying so
at that point, I said to myself, nah, he's not saying "let's talk this out" in good faith, it's just another part of the fucking show(edited)

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 10:00 AM
Roavin is like the high school freshman who follows around the senior kids making terrible cringe jokes to get their approval

Souls 21-Feb-18 10:01 AM
so blocked him
playing with accusations like that, in any form, is a line in the sand for me
and while this wasn't attero outright making explicit false harassment claims or whatever, it was still over the line

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 10:03 AM
I already hate tim and roavin, so you dont really need to sell me

Souls 21-Feb-18 10:03 AM
specifically once I knew exactly that - that he was playing with implying it to get a rise
fuck that

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 10:03 AM
also your therapy session ended 23 minutes ago

Altino 21-Feb-18 10:03 AM
?Everything's okay if you loljk!?

Avakael 21-Feb-18 10:03 AM
This feels very old school

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 10:03 AM
is in a burning building

Souls 21-Feb-18 10:04 AM
Tim has long been on my shitlist for a vast variety of reasons
Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 10:04 AM
I keep loling but it doesnt work
send help

Souls 21-Feb-18 10:04 AM
though outright making it a goal to drive young raiders to quit the game was a line for me there
one of the last that set it in stone

Avakael 21-Feb-18 10:04 AM
This kind of true OOC shit, don't you think, Sav?

Souls 21-Feb-18 10:04 AM
and escade just...infuriates me.
that's less "founded" per se
but her stupid ditz act always raises my blood pressure
fairly certain she's quite the conniving queen bee underneath

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 10:05 AM
did not know escade was a girl
guess you learn something every day

Souls 21-Feb-18 10:05 AM
and that it's entirely a ploy that she breaks out to shift attention as necessary.
I have on good authority that she's manipulative, cunning, and assertive underneath, and that it occasionally breaks through.
@Mcmannia Whitehall yeah she's literally Noble's sister

Altino 21-Feb-18 10:07 AM
Idk, she's very emotionally driven. Casually and in GP. And I've never seen her try to explain anything, ever, and make a lick of sense. But that doesn't necessarily mean the can't get her way.
Just means the methods she'll use to make it happen are reaaaaaallllyyy crappy.

Souls 21-Feb-18 10:07 AM
I'm fairly certain how batshit stupid she is in GP is an act
or at least an exaggeration

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 10:07 AM
kind of like how i joke about consuming human flesh

Souls 21-Feb-18 10:07 AM
it's intentionally meaningless
because you can't properly counter nonsense
I've long said she's Trump-like, in that manner
if you just blatantly lie, divert, spew nonsense, and then cover anything left with a bigly nice-sounding slogan (Friendship!!!!! for her), you're quite hard to counter
someone spends time pointing out and proving how they're wrong in detail...and you just get more nonsense, catchphrases, and "you're mean and wrong" back.
can't really win there
I would underestimate her at your own risk though.

Altino 21-Feb-18 10:13 AM
Just pit Yun against her. :p

Souls 21-Feb-18 10:13 AM
she's that kid in the house you turn your back on because she's harmless and then the last thing you see is her shadow looming over you as you bleed out from the knife she buried in your back

Altino 21-Feb-18 10:13 AM
Well. Yun doesn't really put herself against many people. Maybe not.

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 10:15 AM
ive already provoked enough needless conflict against TSP that they probably hate me
nothing to lose by doing it again

Souls 21-Feb-18 10:18 AM
you went about it all wrong
as I said above
you can at best temporarily weaken it with "spicy" stuff
if it goes swimmingly they lose a little public standing, and maybe have some internal power shifts
and that's unlikely
and then...what?
the world spins on
the problems there are too deeply engrained for that to work for anything more than some groundwork to reduce the number of regions militarily supporting the regime when you coup
because that's the only end game
getting in a seat of power, and holding it.

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 10:20 AM
I wasnt talking about leaking the stolen chatlogs

Souls 21-Feb-18 10:20 AM
but your sleepers headed out when you were done with that, yes?

Mcmannia Whitehall 21-Feb-18 10:20 AM
I was just going to send them the entire emoji movie script in a single telegram

Altino 21-Feb-18 10:20 AM
You monster.

Souls 21-Feb-18 10:20 AM
got pretty close to physical power there, and then called it good

User avatar
Mallorea and Riva
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 9236
Founded: Sep 29, 2010
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mallorea and Riva » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:42 pm

This thread is starting to look like it will diverge fairly substantially from discussing the NPO. Just a friendly reminder, try to make it clear that your post has relevance to the thread.
Ideological Bulwark #253
Retired Charter Nation: Political Affairs in Antarctic Oasis
Retired Major and Field Marshal of The Black Hawks
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Former Delegate of The South Pacific, winner of TSP's "Best Dali" Award
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Terror of The Joint Systems Alliance
Mall Isaraider, son of Tram and Spartz, Brother of Jakker, Tal, and apparently Sev the treacherous bastard.
Frattastan quote of the month: "I don't think chatting with someone over the Internet about casual topics falls under faithful or unfaithful. :<"

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Lord Dominator
Senator
 
Posts: 3811
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Lord Dominator » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:46 pm

I see that Souls and several others hate TSP, hate you & Roavin in particular, and wishes that someone would burn the place down. Doesn't really read as "groomed someone to coup TSP, supported them infiltrating, and strategized about committing espionage" in anyplace except the first sentence if you squint.

Edit: Uh, I got nothing to make it related. Shall we move to TSP's thread, though I thought you all weren't using anymore because arguing in GP is dumb?
Osiris Vizier of WA AffairsDee Vytherov-SkollvaldrGameplay Ambassador of ForestLieutenant in The Black HawksRecruitment and Outreach Director of Lazarus

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Unibot III
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5543
Founded: Mar 11, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Unibot III » Fri Jan 04, 2019 5:53 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:
Unibot III wrote:
TBH's involvement in the griefing of TSP was more central to the coup than NPO's. In a relative scale, TBH comes out on top there. They supplied troops, they did the dirty work. Both regions have likely been involved with a handful of various coups and coup attempts over 15 years - I would give the NPO, the edge, over TBH and LKE/TNI. (The Farkers and The Empire get an honourable mention.) But it's just a relative scale. TBH is typically not up to any good when it comes to Game-Created Regions, same goes for New Pacific Order.

Uh huh, and yet my original point was still just about the relative scale of GCR coup stuff between the three, which you yourself just said goes to the NPO.


I can I understand relative calculations, but it's not a major gap there, LD. Not enough that would give me confidence as a legislator that I could trust TBH over NPO. The truth is they can't trust either - history says so.

Imkiville wrote:
Unibot III wrote:Lazarus? A dictatorship now run by a personal enemy of TSP who simply had the foresight to flip at the right moment, after assisting a coup of a TSP ally.

I know you're out of touch since your near universally ostracised but you really should find out actual facts and not spout any old rubbish that plops into your head. I'm not a personal enemy of TSP, our dislike of each other now is no secret but I was dedicated and did good work for TSP for a long time, I'm not banned from there and Lazarus has no ill will against TSP, we are maintaining friendly relations with them. Also good luck finding anyone actually actively in Lazarus who would call it a dictatorship. :roll:


This post hurts my head:

1) You admit there is a mutual dislike of one another. But insist there's nothing between you that could obstruct relations. Hello...

2) Anyone actually active in Lazarus would naturally support you, because their participation is indicative of support. That's like saying no-one in NPO would call NPO a dictatorship, so NPO isn't a dictatorship. There are still people out there that are original natives of the Pacific that resist the creation of the NPO and refuse to recognize it, likewise there are also still existing refugees of the Lazarus Civil War who see your leadership as dictatorial - because it ... is a dictatorship. You're not holding regular elections, there is no term limit, no challenge system. God knows how you will react when you do face a negative Assembly vote, if that's even possible to organize without indirect suppression from you.

3) You expect personal and political clemency from TSP and TRR for your part in helping to overthrow a long, long ally of both TSP and TRR. But your act in the downfall of the Khanate was not a noble infiltration like Kazmr in NLO (who is a goddamn hero), you've significantly benefited from this post-coup scenario as the chief executive. If TSP and TRR did this, allianceships would mean nothing, they'd be totally immaterial. You accomplished what other coupers could only dream of: legitimacy without democracy.

Killer Kitty wrote:Unibot had zero issues when Lazarus was an outright Defender dictatorship under the PRL. He only takes issue with Imki because her government doesn't side with Defenders.


I've supported one coup in my time in NationStates, OFO. I saw it as a necessary measure to move the region forward from a power vacuum and the Empire's internal machinations that were undermining regional development, security, and the rule of law. Both the OFO and the PRL were effectively democracies, the PRL elected its leaders - it was like any other democratic region, it just called itself a people's dictatorship as a part of its theme. I don't consider the PRL to be a coup, because it wasn't extra-constitutional - but if it was I would support it the same as I did, the OFO. To me, the timeline is improperly compartmentalized: the ban of NES, Vik, and Apollo is squeezed in with the creation of the PRL, but they were separate steps. The PRL was a creative and constitutional overhaul, the banning of the imperial members was necessary to remove political malcontents whose presence in Lazarus was just about keeping Lazarus 'neutral' in the TNI/FRA war and neutral in the Cold War. Lazarus, prior to the PRL, was a dead husk of a region. It's accurate to compare it with Balder nowadays - the region barely churned along internally. The PRL was a creative and cultural revolution, that won over imaginations, and attracted so many young, ambitious players.

Players nowadays lament that "if only Balder be couped" - that's how many of us secretly felt about Lazarus then. It was just simply not an active region. The PRL was a collective reorganization of the region that burned brightly and shortly like a firecracker. If the NLO hadn't happened, I think the PRL would exist in some form today. I think it was a major success and the NPO ruined it, basically.

I don't feel my support for PRL has anything to do with its alignment. I felt similar thoughts about the OFO and had high hopes for it - and OFO was outright invader. There are similar cases, rare as they are, where revolutionary changes are necessary to advance the region, especially when it cannot be achieved through the existing constitutional structure because of corruption and maladministration. In these cases, I value a democratic successor to the prior regime and transparency in the participants - it's usually a dead giveaway if the people couping are hiding behind false accounts or moving the region to a non-democratic structure.

Galiantus III wrote:
Unibot III wrote:The truth is all democratic GCRs ought to be skeptical of getting in bed with TBH in a fight with the NPO, their history is not particularly better than the NPO. Their intentions are historically not much different than the NPO. That places the South Pacific (and the Rejected Realms) in an awkward position of having every reason to want to participate in a war effort against NPO, with few credible allies leading it. Who is in the war effort? Europeia? Who was the one of the worst allies of TSP imaginable. (Balder was the worst.) Osiris? Who organized espionage against TSP. Lazarus? A dictatorship now run by a personal enemy of TSP who simply had the foresight to flip at the right moment, after assisting a coup of a TSP ally. The war effort is a gallery of the who's who in the "Fucking with TSP" Olympics.

First of all, Unibot, your ideas about democracy and NS are entirely incorrect. The WA delegate is a military and security position much more than a government position. Second, part of the issue here is that, unlike the NPO, TBH is completely open and honest about what they do and have done. They are raiders. They invade and they coup, and they are loyal to their allies. That is very different than the history of the NPO, which has attempted to coup regions they were allies with, tried to cover it up, then only responded to try and save face when found out. Let's also not forget this is not the first time they have been called out on this and pretended to change. Third, had Imki not taken Lazarus, the region would have been transitioned to NPO control, amid cheers from the majority of gameplay; all because the NPO was willing to exploit the rules of a Lazarus democracy. A historian and moralist defender like you should recognize that such conquest by the NPO is a direct threat to all GCRs - especially democratic ones.


Incorrect, a WA Delegate is a necessarily political figure because the choice of forum and government is predicated on their discretion ultimately.

TBH is not transparent about its intentions in Game-Created Regions; it denies its involvement in TSP and downplays any ill-intentions it's had in GCRs because TBH is very much concerned with its public relations. Public relations for TBH are different than defenders and held to a different standard, but they exist and they're a central concern of this generation of invaders who are more politically active.

If Imki had not taken Lazarus, it would have remained under the Khanate's control (the NPO was the NLO, not the Khanate) - incidentally EW, the main couper behind the Khanate, is still involved with Imki's regime. There was no real justice involved in the transition. I'm not sure the Corpocracy and the Khanate would have looked very differently if the latter had continued and inevitably moderated.

Conquest of the NPO is a direct threat to all GCRs, as is anyone else with similar ambitions. I've never said anything to the contrary.

Cormactopia Prime wrote:
Unibot III wrote:What bothers me is invaders are trying to whitewash their own history. TSP is being made out to be a black sheep for not wanting to put its lot in with TBH, but it's perfectible reasonable...

I'm not sure where you're gathering that any of us care what the South Pacific does or doesn't do. People like Glen-Rhodes and Roavin have been carrying water for the NPO since the day the news of the NPO's recent subversive activities broke. No one is beside themselves with disappointment that TSP hasn't joined the war effort, or that TSP doesn't like our regions. Newsflash: Some of us don't particularly like TSP either due to TSP's past behavior toward us. If they would prefer to be neutral, while Glen and Roavin continue to defend the NPO and engage in whataboutism, I think most of us are fine with that. No one's losing any sleep over TSP not being part of the war effort, and no one is anymore hostile to them than was already the case.

I don't know what to tell you about the other regions involved in the war effort. The NPO declared war on TBH. NPO agents engaged in serious subversion and a coup attempt against Osiris. The NPO knowingly concealed Feux's alternate identity as Adytus from Lazarus, even at a time when the NPO was involved in the peacekeeping effort and Feux was being considered for a peacekeeper role. On top of that, the NPO actively administered Task Force Lazarus, an operation designed to plunge Lazarus into civil war and which succeeded in demolishing Lazarus' government and community at the time. These regions aren't going to kindly stop fighting a war against the NPO so TSP can feel better about opposing the NPO, especially when TSP in all likelihood wouldn't be anymore opposed to the NPO than it is now. It's none of these regions' fault that TSP has let people like Glen and Roavin turn TSP into a near-pariah with their behavior toward other regions. Maybe if TSP actually got more involved in opposing the NPO, it could rebuild some of the relationships Glen and Roavin have systematically destroyed over the years. If they choose not to do that, that's on them. Again, I don't think anyone on our side is losing any sleep over it one way or the other. It would be nice to see other TSPers assert their independence from Glen and Roavin though.


I was a major critic of TSP's decision to pursue closer ties with the NPO and I'm not engaging in whataboutism here - it was also my belief that this was a Tim decision as much as a Roavin and Glen one. I thought it was ludicrous stupid and told them as much then. I think the NPO has proven itself that TSP cannot trust it, and I believe that TBH has proven TSP cannot trust it either - what I'm saying is that it places TSP in a position where neither side is an attractive partner. Join people that have screwed you over, to fight other people that have screwed you over - or join people that have screwed you over, to fight other people that have screwed you over. That is much of the source of Glen and Roavin's ambivalence, I believe. I supported and promoted through back-channels, new arrangements like the January Accord, because it was a leg to stand on that was independent of NPO and invaders/imperialists. It's the absence or weakness of those networks that leaves us in this situation currently. I believe that defenders and defender-leaning regions don't have much of a card to play here. There's no independent corner they can back in a TBH-NPO war.

Osiris' primary administrator at the time didn't need to be driven crazy, he had already arrived at his destination long before that.


Mek is not "crazy," and I wasn't referring to Mek. I meant administration generally, not in the forum sense.
Last edited by Unibot III on Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
[violet] wrote:I mean this in the best possible way,
but Unibot is not a typical NS player.
Milograd wrote:You're a caring, resolute lunatic
with the best of intentions.
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Yokiria
Envoy
 
Posts: 228
Founded: Jan 24, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Yokiria » Fri Jan 04, 2019 8:44 pm

Unibot III wrote:Join people that have screwed you over, to fight other people that have screwed you over - or join people that have screwed you over, to fight other people that have screwed you over. That is much of the source of Glen and Roavin's ambivalence, I believe.


They have a phrase for this. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
~ As the waves crash high,
Former Guardian of Osiris

and the shoreline disappears,
I will scream to the sky...
This nation's views do not necessarily reflect the views of the player.

"Hey, people live here!".~

User avatar
Aumeltopia
Secretary
 
Posts: 35
Founded: Apr 02, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Aumeltopia » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:24 pm

Unibot III wrote:Lazarus? A dictatorship now run by a personal enemy of TSP who simply had the foresight to flip at the right moment, after assisting a coup of a TSP ally. The war effort is a gallery of the who's who in the "Fucking with TSP" Olympics.

The South Pacific has no issues with the Corporation of Lazarus and holds no grudges against it or its delegate.

Unibot III wrote:I supported and promoted through back-channels, new arrangements like the January Accord...

Stop trying to insert yourself into decisions you were not involved in. You are not an honorary debater for the South Pacific. We do not wish to have your services.
^-^
aka Somyrion


Auphelia wrote:Raccoons are bandits! First they steal your food . . . and then your heart/identity!

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