NationStates Today

[Stiegae]

2) Cosmos are bad. They're bad, they are. And this is exactly why. Some citizen of Lazarus who may or may not have been NST staff leaked Lazarene insider info. There is nothing I can see that reasonably can be done about that, aside from Laz just saying TELL US! and NST saying NEVER! However, the person who was writing the article in question containing Lazarene leaks, the person who approached Jo for more information regarding it and received these further leaked DMs, the person who posted this statement to blast Jo and Lazarus... this person was also a citizen of Lazarus. Does he stop becoming a citizen of Lazarus when he enters other servers? It is against his interests as NST staff to not run the leak, but it is literally illegal for him to run them as a citizen of Lazarus. That's really unnerving to me. Clearly loyalty to Lazarus is not high on his priority list, which is fine. Whatever. But it makes me nervous about NST staff roaming around our regions, watching our channels. NST current and former staff have all bounced in so far with a "no, this was totally fine to do" attitude. Where we do fall on their priority list?

I mean, take me with a grain of salt, of course. I'm not involved in Lazarus, and I am good friends with lots of people in NST, but nepotism toward my friends in NST has still not been strong enough to compel me not to really hate NST. I've never liked them, I feel like they make bad and damaging decisions. I do try to help them, because that's who I am as a person, but everyone knows I don't like them. So. I will admit a bias here. But I still find this leak/statement incredibly irresponsible and this whole kerfuffle from a Lazarene perspective has definite been illegal.

I feel compelled to answer this message in particular to prevent any miss-understanding of our policy on this sort of thing.

We do not accept leaks from our own staff directly, and we do not place pressure, nor have we ever asked, our staff to provide us with restricted information from their own regions. Doing so would be repugnant, as you have identified, and would be a gross violation of the basic values of journalism. In addition, doing so would rightly place us into 'espionage' territory. That is not the situation here; the staff member was passed leaks, without prompting, by a citizen of Laz external to NST, and immediately sought to stop writing the article (and swapping it with another writer) so he wouldn't have to write leaks in violation of the law or loyalties.

[New Rogernomics]

Well, jeez, man, let's not get dramatic. Lol. I don't think we're in "cancel NSToday for life" territory. These things involved leaks, but they are not comparable. And NST publishing these leaks as an independent news source, as I've said, is a little bit skeevy, but not a really hard hitting problem. If I were Lazarus, I would not touch NST with a ten foot pole after that, especially now that Lazarus has to permanently deal with the knowledge that someone in their region is leaking for the sole purpose of causing trouble for them, and they have no idea who. But if I were NST I would not give up my sources either. How else are they going to be trusted to get sources in the future? This part is all very unfortunate for Lazarus, but to me is nothing for the rest of us to really stomp our feet about.

I'd expect there not much for Lazarus to be able to do beyond what it already has i.e. make a statement of protest, argue it's position, and go home. As for the source of the leak, there are so many possibilities there, though my guess would be a disgruntled Lazarene citizen friendly with someone in another region, who happens to work for NS Today, and was talking with them about events in Lazarus and decided to leak. The alternative is the Cosmo theory i.e. someone who is also from a region that doesn't want TWP and Lazarus to have a good diplomatic relationship, and there are a lot of possible candidates for that - though not the NPO I'd say as they have a pretty neutral policy, and want a positive resolution to current Lazarus-NPO relations. As for long-term mitigation, they could still be in Lazarus or they could have left days ago never to return, if the former, Lazarus will have a leaking problem until the leaker finally makes a mistake and blows their cover. Though I'd say it be like searching for a needle in a haystack finding evidence on someone on the basis of just one leak.

[Kyorgia]

The concerning thing here is that NStoday thought it had the inter-regional clout to push around a GCR without consequences and with journalistic tactics worthy of tabloid rags like The Sun. This whole thing would not have been a big deal if NStoday just had the balls to publish the leaks but instead they chose scare tactics on the NS forum to try and keep Lazarus in line. I hope every region that signed their monopolist agreement takes note of this incident

[Kanaia]

The concerning thing here is that NStoday thought it had the inter-regional clout to push around a GCR without consequences and with journalistic tactics worthy of tabloid rags like The Sun. This whole thing would not have been a big deal if NStoday just had the balls to publish the leaks but instead they chose scare tactics on the NS forum to try and keep Lazarus in line. I hope every region that signed their monopolist agreement takes note of this incident

Let me FTFY.

The concerning thing here is that Lazarus thought it had the inter-regional clout to clandestinely push around a newspaper without consequences and with censorship tactics worthy of despotic state like the USSR. This whole thing would not have been a big deal if Lazarus just had the balls to investigate the leaks internally but instead they chose intimidation tactics on Discord to try and keep NStoday in line. I hope every region, player, and organisation that plays NS takes note of this incident.

[New Rogernomics]

[...]Despotic state like the USSR[...]

Pretty sure you can make the same argument without an alternative version of godwin.

[The Church of Satan]

Can no one admit that there were mistakes on both sides? >_>

[Aurum Raider]

Can no one admit that there were mistakes on both sides? >_>

Surely you know that's impossible.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

Can no one admit that there were mistakes on both sides? >_>

The real mistakes were the friends we made along the way.

[Kanaia]

[...]Despotic state like the USSR[...]

Pretty sure you can make the same argument without an alternative version of godwin.

Sure, go ahead and choose your own dystopia:
A. USSR
B. North Korea
C. McCarthyism
D. Francoist Spain (Please note, not "Francos Spain")

The point was to be as hyperbolic and ridiculous as Kyrogia was.

Can no one admit that there were mistakes on both sides? >_>

Yes, and all lives matter.

[Boda]

Kanaia like no... >_>

[The Church of Satan]

Can no one admit that there were mistakes on both sides? >_>

Yes, and all lives matter.

The two do not in any way equate. Your comparison is radical at best and obscene at worst. >_>

[Varanius]

Pretty sure you can make the same argument without an alternative version of godwin.

Sure, go ahead and choose your own dystopia:
A. USSR
B. North Korea
C. McCarthyism
D. Francoist Spain (Please note, not "Francos Spain")

The point was to be as hyperbolic and ridiculous as Kyrogia was.

Can no one admit that there were mistakes on both sides? >_>

Yes, and all lives matter.

Even raiders?

[New Rogernomics]

Pretty sure you can make the same argument without an alternative version of godwin.

Sure, go ahead and choose your own dystopia:
A. USSR
B. North Korea
C. McCarthyism
D. Francoist Spain (Please note, not "Francos Spain")

The point was to be as hyperbolic and ridiculous as Kyrogia was.

Can no one admit that there were mistakes on both sides? >_>

Yes, and all lives matter.

So when XKI called me an "enemy faction" for writing an article critical of TITO, XKI, and Defenderism, during the founding of Osiris, and followed a policy that it still does to label anyone critical of the region or Grub as an "enemy faction", this was demonstrating "press freedom". Good to know nothing has changed and such hostility to press freedom remains in XKI.*

*See what I did there. Two can play this silly game.

[Kanaia]

Yes, and all lives matter.

The two do not in any way equate. Your comparison is radical at best and obscene at worst. >_>

Mistakes can be made by all parties. But one party can make the greater and more damning mistake. Using the "Both Sides" false equivalency does nothing here.

Sure, go ahead and choose your own dystopia:
A. USSR
B. North Korea
C. McCarthyism
D. Francoist Spain (Please note, not "Francos Spain")

The point was to be as hyperbolic and ridiculous as Kyrogia was.


Yes, and all lives matter.

So when XKI called me an "enemy faction" for writing an article critical of TITO, XKI, and Defenderism, during the founding of Osiris, and followed a policy that it still does to label anyone critical of the region or Grub as an "enemy faction", this was demonstrating "press freedom". Good to know nothing has changed and such hostility to press freedom remains in XKI.*

*See what I did there. Two can play this silly game.

XKI, TITO, and "Defenderism" are not the topic here. In fact, I don't believe XKI, TITO, or "Defenderism" have played any part in this. If I have to avoid even "an alternative version of godwin." I suggest you should avoid whataboutism. I will not threadjack the discussion any further with XKI, TITO, or "Defenderism" unless they are shown to be actors in this situation.

[New Rogernomics]

The two do not in any way equate. Your comparison is radical at best and obscene at worst. >_>

Mistakes can be made by all parties. But one party can make the greater and more damning mistake. Using the "Both Sides" false equivalency does nothing here.

So when XKI called me an "enemy faction" for writing an article critical of TITO, XKI, and Defenderism, during the founding of Osiris, and followed a policy that it still does to label anyone critical of the region or Grub as an "enemy faction", this was demonstrating "press freedom". Good to know nothing has changed and such hostility to press freedom remains in XKI.*

*See what I did there. Two can play this silly game.

XKI, TITO, and "Defenderism" are not the topic here. In fact, I don't believe XKI, TITO, or "Defenderism" have played any part in this. If I have to avoid even "an alternative version of godwin." I suggest you should avoid whataboutism. I will not threadjack the discussion any further with XKI, TITO, or "Defenderism" unless they are shown to be actors in this situation.

Seems that went through one ear and out the other. I don't argue that XKI is a fascist or authoritarian region on basis of being critical of an article or it's ideological stance. Yet you've literally equated all of Lazarus in that fashion. Somehow you've taken this logical leap from, a regional government not liking and article and not liking it published, to an entire regional community being RL fascist, and calling players and regions effectively fascists and communists.

[King HEM]

I think "leaks" has become a really loaded word in Nationstates over the past few years. This belief that individuals and regions should have ultimate authority and power over their political information* -- and anything else is a ~scandal~ -- is a little naive, and leads to overreactions like this. This is a political game where most game mechanics have to with interpersonal interactions. So relationships, history, and yes, information are power. Everyone is always going to be seeking information -- which is maybe why folks clutch their pearls when they realize their region's information is not quite as secure as they'd like to imagine. There are tools to guard information, of course. Regions can break treaties, issue statements, and even declare war on regions that don't comply. Regions and organizations can regulate information sharing internally by establishing rules and laws about who knows what and who is allowed to share what. Even media within regions can be subject to these laws -- though personally, I think that's probably typically poor form as internal media judged the information to be newsworthy and relevant to others. But the benefit (a feature, not a glitch) of being an outside media organization like NS Today means you aren't bound by those laws, making the decision to "break them" even easier.

Being a media organization means you have to be an independent judge of what is newsworthy. That means if you receive information, you not only have the right, but have an obligation to publish it if you indeed think it's newsworthy. The true travesty here would've been if NS Today had bowed to external pressure to not publish. Then that means they aren't an independent judge of newsworthiness and that the content they publish can be influenced by those who have much more complicated agendas.

An imperfect, but relevant comparison here would be the real life United States. There's plenty of leaked information the Trump Administration would prefer journalists not publish. It's in their best interest, and indeed, often case the law, for journalists to not go public with these "leaks". But it is the best interest of "the people" that they have this information, so they can hold their government accountable.

The grey area that NS Today has created for itself here is establishing treaties with regions about information-sharing. This may incorrectly give off the impression that NS Today should only publish information the region wants them to. This is the wrong impression. One thing NS Today should strongly consider is ending these treaties, or revising the wording to make the relationship crystal clear.

Finally, it should go without saying -- but my sanctimonious post wouldn't be complete without it -- that NS Today and all media should carefully vet leaked information for credibility, authenticity, and newsworthiness. And if people judge published information (leaked or not) to not be credible, authentic, or newsworthy, then those people have every right to say so and we'll all let the arguments be judged on their merits.

* When I say "political information" I mean in-character, in-game information. Of course everyone should have total authority over OOC or RL-related information.

[The Church of Satan]

Mistakes can be made by all parties. But one party can make the greater and more damning mistake. Using the "Both Sides" false equivalency does nothing here.

What good does it do to assume which made the greater mistake? Who's to say which mistake even is greater? Will it remedy the situation? Is it even right to just assume you know which mistake was greater with absolute certainty? Simply accepting that both parties made their mistakes allows for a better outlet to end the discourse more efficiently and more peacefully.

[New Rogernomics]

Mistakes can be made by all parties. But one party can make the greater and more damning mistake. Using the "Both Sides" false equivalency does nothing here.

What good does it do to assume which made the greater mistake? Who's to say which mistake even is greater? Will it remedy the situation? Is it even right to just assume you know which mistake was greater with absolute certainty? Simply accepting that both parties made their mistakes allows for a better outlet to end the discourse more efficiently and more peacefully.

My hope is that things can calm down. There are plenty of things I could say right now, though I don't see them being heard or understood till the article is published, in whatever form it takes i.e. heavily critical of Lazarus or not. With my own experience of running the Lazarene Gazette, I've never stopped the presses so to speak because an article was disliked by another party. Indeed, I have personally authored articles in the past that caused diplomatic incidents, so I am well aware of the nuances of reporting and the need to report stories regardless of how they will be interpreted or viewed. As a private citizen I would respect the right/need of an article to be published to inform or make clear a point of view, though as a Lazarene, I can't be ignorant of the feelings, sentiments or opinions of the government or Lazarene citizens, any more than NS Today could be ignorant of the same in regards to their reporters and sources.

[Altino]

Oh, shoot, I already lost interest in this. :( You guys are so dramatic.

[Yokiria]

An imperfect, but relevant comparison here would be the real life United States. There's plenty of leaked information the Trump Administration would prefer journalists not publish.

Okay. I'd like to get this out of the way first, since it's my lightest remark. HEM, you know that "imperfect" is an understatement when you're indirectly comparing New Rogernomics to Mike Pence.

I think "leaks" has become a really loaded word in Nationstates over the past few years. This belief that individuals and regions should have ultimate authority and power over their political information* -- and anything else is a ~scandal~ -- is a little naive, and leads to overreactions like this.

The belief that you later espouse in your post, that an NS media organization is obligated to publish any information they think is newsworthy, is also a little naive. What to publish and what not to publish is a more complex decision than that, and I'm not even talking about the vetting, because you mentioned that too. What I'm talking about is how political media has to consider political implications. If a media organization in a political game doesn't practice a level of pragmatism, they'll burn all their bridges in the name of "the people".

So relationships, history, and yes, information are power. Everyone is always going to be seeking information -- which is maybe why folks clutch their pearls when they realize their region's information is not quite as secure as they'd like to imagine.

Folks "clutch their pearls" at a leak because suddenly you can't trust that the information you share inside your region won't be used against it. I've seen the psychological effect that has on a regional community. I'm sure there are players that only see it as "Power lost, security breached!", but most of us aren't so robotic.

The true travesty here would've been if NS Today had bowed to external pressure to not publish. Then that means they aren't an independent judge of newsworthiness and that the content they publish can be influenced by those who have much more complicated agendas.

Ironically, you're making a point about something that would compromise NS Today's ability to judge their stories independent of outside influence, but the kind of thinking behind your point can also compromise that. Bear with me as I explain.

If it's seen as a travesty for them to bow to external pressure not to publish, and that external pressure comes (as it inevitably would), then the desire to avoid the appearance of bowing to external pressure is going to influence their decision to publish. It is ultimately better if we won't make any judgement about how they publish their articles, and just react to the articles they publish, because their output will speak for itself.

[Custadia]

I made a few off-the-cuff posts earlier, but I have some somewhat more measured takes.

Much has been made of NSToday's "duty" as a news service. I would ask this: their duty to whom? Their readers? Readers who would have gained or lost nothing from this article? Not much has been made of Lazarus' duty to protect our citizens; citizens who trust in our promise that the opinions they voice privately in our Assembly with the betterment of our region in mind will remain private. With that duty in mind, it only makes sense that our Prime Minister would attempt to deter such a leak. The freedom of the foreign press is one amongst many and it does not take precedence in our thoughts over the freedoms of our own people.

Consideration also ought to be given to the fact that NSToday was not only offering comment on a leak that had already been made. They were threatening to significantly broaden the scope of that leak, being the first point of contact between the leaked information and the wider NSGP community. Before doing so, the information will only have passed outside of Lazarus from individual to individual on a somewhat private basis.

Lazarus would not turn a blind eye if another GCR had indicated that they were going to publish leaks from our assembly. She would not turn a blind eye if XKI, Europeia, Karma, TBH or TGW indicated that they were going to publish leaks from our assembly. Why should she turn a blind eye when NSToday does so?

[New Rogernomics]

Okay. I'd like to get this out of the way first, since it's my lightest remark. HEM, you know that "imperfect" is an understatement when you're indirectly comparing New Rogernomics to Mike Pence.

Get what you are going for here, but I'm in a whole different branch of Lazarus that isn't responsible for cabinet decisions or what the PM or foreign affairs may say abroad. The Delegate and VD hold functions of a head of state and security role, and executive decisions are largely left to the head of government. I am not in a position to be heavily critical of government decisions or policy, not that I won't comment as a private citizen.

[Honeydewistania]

Did I miss a memo? Because I am unable to locate how Lazarus has been in the wrong here. Someone leaked sensitive information, we kindly requested that they do not publish such information as nothing has been confirmed yet, then NSToday thinks they are big enough to push us around so they publish a private conversation. How is Lazarus wrong?

[Lord Dominator]

Did I miss a memo? Because I am unable to locate how Lazarus has been in the wrong here. Someone leaked sensitive information, we kindly requested that they do not publish such information as nothing has been confirmed yet, then NSToday thinks they are big enough to push us around so they publish a private conversation. How is Lazarus wrong?

The indications from Lazarus about trying to deter other regions from NST should they publish whatever leaks they received, and the indications in this very thread about possibly attempting to put NST staff on trial for espionage may answer your question.

[Kanaia]

Mistakes can be made by all parties. But one party can make the greater and more damning mistake. Using the "Both Sides" false equivalency does nothing here.

XKI, TITO, and "Defenderism" are not the topic here. In fact, I don't believe XKI, TITO, or "Defenderism" have played any part in this. If I have to avoid even "an alternative version of godwin." I suggest you should avoid whataboutism. I will not threadjack the discussion any further with XKI, TITO, or "Defenderism" unless they are shown to be actors in this situation.

Seems that went through one ear and out the other. I don't argue that XKI is a fascist or authoritarian region on basis of being critical of an article or it's ideological stance. Yet you've literally equated all of Lazarus in that fashion. Somehow you've taken this logical leap from, a regional government not liking and article and not liking it published, to an entire regional community being RL fascist, and calling players and regions effectively fascists and communists.

No, as stated above, I was being as hyperbolic and ridiculous as Kyrogia was. Both Kyrogia's statement and mine are foolish and inaccurate. However, unlike your statement they at least dealt with the issue at hand, rather than whataboutism regarding completely separate regions, and a dispute from a decade ago.

Did I miss a memo? Because I am unable to locate how Lazarus has been in the wrong here. Someone leaked sensitive information, we kindly requested that they do not publish such information as nothing has been confirmed yet, then NSToday thinks they are big enough to push us around so they publish a private conversation. How is Lazarus wrong?

If that is "kindly" I'd hate to see what you consider a threat.