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NationStates Today | Opinion: 'Best Nation' Was Worst Yet

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Honeydewistania
Minister
 
Posts: 2731
Founded: Jun 09, 2017
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Honeydewistania » Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:41 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:
Honeydewistania wrote:Did I miss a memo? Because I am unable to locate how Lazarus has been in the wrong here. Someone leaked sensitive information, we kindly requested that they do not publish such information as nothing has been confirmed yet, then NSToday thinks they are big enough to push us around so they publish a private conversation. How is Lazarus wrong?

The indications from Lazarus about trying to deter other regions from NST should they publish whatever leaks they received, and the indications in this very thread about possibly attempting to put NST staff on trial for espionage may answer your question.

Why is it wrong to tell people not to use NSToday? It’s not like we said ‘we are going to raid you if you have relations with NSToday’.
Ambassador to the WA: Benji Schubert Hepperle
Assistant to the Ambassador: Rekeil Wrigglesworth II
Official Coffee-fetcher and Masseuse: Jonathan Santos de Oliveira
Wonderess wrote:frankly someone I don’t want to see gain influence in NS and by extension TNP

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Boda
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Founded: Nov 14, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Boda » Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:21 pm

Honeydewistania wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:The indications from Lazarus about trying to deter other regions from NST should they publish whatever leaks they received, and the indications in this very thread about possibly attempting to put NST staff on trial for espionage may answer your question.

Why is it wrong to tell people not to use NSToday? It’s not like we said ‘we are going to raid you if you have relations with NSToday’.

Because proscription works well!
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The Notorious Mad Jack
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Founded: Nov 05, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Notorious Mad Jack » Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:17 am

Honeydewistania wrote:
Lord Dominator wrote:The indications from Lazarus about trying to deter other regions from NST should they publish whatever leaks they received, and the indications in this very thread about possibly attempting to put NST staff on trial for espionage may answer your question.

Why is it wrong to tell people not to use NSToday? It’s not like we said ‘we are going to raid you if you have relations with NSToday’.

Yet. Y'all are so shook over this I wouldn't be surprised if you did do that.
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New Rogernomics
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9238
Founded: Aug 22, 2006
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby New Rogernomics » Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:54 am

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:
Honeydewistania wrote:Why is it wrong to tell people not to use NSToday? It’s not like we said ‘we are going to raid you if you have relations with NSToday’.

Yet. Y'all are so shook over this I wouldn't be surprised if you did do that.
Raiding is illegal by law. Not that saying, "don't be ridiculous" is going to convince you to argue/agree otherwise. Honeydewistania doesn't have the power/authority to raid anywhere for Lazarus.

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Jocospor
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Posts: 975
Founded: Nov 24, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby Jocospor » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:05 am

Without really knowing what's going on:

The assertion has been made that NSToday is an "independent" organisation. I laugh at the thought. NSToday is clearly aligned with various factions of NationStates. They wouldn't let me join because I'm from CCD (call me salty, but hey, I could have made a meaningful contribution), so they clearly have an agenda.

(NB I've recently had very positive OOC interactions with members of NSGP, but my OOC interactions with NSToday have been woeful.)

Now, trust me, I know a thing about leaks. It's never a question of "How do I stop a leak?" (plumber?), but rather "What will I do when the leak inevitably happens?" To those concerned, try and make the most of it...if you can.

The important thing to take away, however, is that NSToday does display a clear level of bias. This is why The NewsStand remains the ultimate NationStates inter-regional news provider: it is a distributor, not a corporation. NSToday might like to think about that concept a little more.

EDIT: Reviewing the accessible information, yes, it is my opinion as a Founder of a not-insignificant UCR that NSToday is out of line. I would encourage Lazarus to take the measures it outlined.
Last edited by Jocospor on Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:10 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Honeydewistania
Minister
 
Posts: 2731
Founded: Jun 09, 2017
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Honeydewistania » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:13 am

I’m pretty sure you’re banned because you are from a (their words) bigoted region. I’m not saying I agree or disagree, but you have questionable members in your ranks and certainly a very questionable past. While I fully appreciate your efforts to give your region a better face, I don’t blame NSToday for banning you, no offence.
Ambassador to the WA: Benji Schubert Hepperle
Assistant to the Ambassador: Rekeil Wrigglesworth II
Official Coffee-fetcher and Masseuse: Jonathan Santos de Oliveira
Wonderess wrote:frankly someone I don’t want to see gain influence in NS and by extension TNP

she/her

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Jocospor
Diplomat
 
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Founded: Nov 24, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby Jocospor » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:16 am

Honeydewistania wrote:I’m pretty sure you’re banned because you are from a (their words) bigoted region. I’m not saying I agree or disagree, but you have questionable members in your ranks and certainly a very questionable past. While I fully appreciate your efforts to give your region a better face, I don’t blame NSToday for banning you, no offence.

(*no questionable members currently) Eh, offence taken.

It's not a question of why I/others were banned, its a matter of fact, and that directly proves a bias.

You also have to remember that NSToday's board is predominantly comprised of players whose nations are government officers of various regions. That in itself is a serious tell.
HAIL THE CONFEDERATION!
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Boda
Diplomat
 
Posts: 540
Founded: Nov 14, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Boda » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:18 am

Jocospor wrote:
Honeydewistania wrote:I’m pretty sure you’re banned because you are from a (their words) bigoted region. I’m not saying I agree or disagree, but you have questionable members in your ranks and certainly a very questionable past. While I fully appreciate your efforts to give your region a better face, I don’t blame NSToday for banning you, no offence.

(*no questionable members currently) Eh, offence taken.

It's not a question of why I/others were banned, its a matter of fact, and that directly proves a bias.

You also have to remember that NSToday's board is predominantly comprised of players whose nations are government officers of various regions. That in itself is a serious tell.

Well maybe people just don’t like the fash or those who associated with the fash /shrug
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Jocospor
Diplomat
 
Posts: 975
Founded: Nov 24, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby Jocospor » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:23 am

Boda wrote:
Jocospor wrote:(*no questionable members currently) Eh, offence taken.

It's not a question of why I/others were banned, its a matter of fact, and that directly proves a bias.

You also have to remember that NSToday's board is predominantly comprised of players whose nations are government officers of various regions. That in itself is a serious tell.

Well maybe people just don’t like the fash or those who associated with the fash /shrug

Wow, you might almost call that a political position! :rofl:
HAIL THE CONFEDERATION!
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JOCOSPOR | CENTRAL IMPERIAL DIREKTORATE


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Honeydewistania
Minister
 
Posts: 2731
Founded: Jun 09, 2017
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Honeydewistania » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:24 am

Jocospor wrote:
Honeydewistania wrote:I’m pretty sure you’re banned because you are from a (their words) bigoted region. I’m not saying I agree or disagree, but you have questionable members in your ranks and certainly a very questionable past. While I fully appreciate your efforts to give your region a better face, I don’t blame NSToday for banning you, no offence.

(*no questionable members currently) Eh, offence taken.

It's not a question of why I/others were banned, its a matter of fact, and that directly proves a bias.

You also have to remember that NSToday's board is predominantly comprised of players whose nations are government officers of various regions. That in itself is a serious tell.
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=nor ... n_fascists

What’s that then? Looks pretty questionable.
Ambassador to the WA: Benji Schubert Hepperle
Assistant to the Ambassador: Rekeil Wrigglesworth II
Official Coffee-fetcher and Masseuse: Jonathan Santos de Oliveira
Wonderess wrote:frankly someone I don’t want to see gain influence in NS and by extension TNP

she/her

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Agalaesia
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 56
Founded: Sep 23, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Agalaesia » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:42 am

This is an exceedingly interesting topic and one that will be in the NationStates History books for years to come.

While I don't think that there is any problem with NationStates Today publishing leaks, as it is a media organisation and it is well within its rights to do so, the organisation should have expected some sort of response from the Lazarene government, especially when NationStates Today has an agreement with Lazarus. Secondly, it is well within Lazarus' right to prosecute the leaker, as the leaker broke Lazarene laws. Doing so would not be "censorship of the press," but a respect for their own laws which they must follow. That being said, no-one has prosecuted any official from NationStates Today, and the Lazarene government has no control over the Lazarene courts as government officials, and can only submit cases and trials for review as citizens, so no-one has been prosecuted, and I don't think that the government officials were threatening as much as informing NationStates Today about their own laws.

I think that both sides were at fault here, to different degrees. The Lazrene government may have been too agressive in their response, especially if what NationStates Today is saying is to be believed (although I think that they might be overblowing what may have been a normal and expected exchange), however, NationStates Today shouldn't have published an inflammatory article calling Lazarus out for its so called "disrespect to media independence." Instead, they should have just published the article and dealt with the consequences afterwards, as that would have been more professional.
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Jocospor
Diplomat
 
Posts: 975
Founded: Nov 24, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby Jocospor » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:53 am

Honeydewistania wrote:
Jocospor wrote:(*no questionable members currently) Eh, offence taken.

It's not a question of why I/others were banned, its a matter of fact, and that directly proves a bias.

You also have to remember that NSToday's board is predominantly comprised of players whose nations are government officers of various regions. That in itself is a serious tell.
https://www.nationstates.net/nation=nor ... n_fascists

What’s that then? Looks pretty questionable.

To the best of my knowledge, the nation in question is strictly RPing. Again, to the best of my knowledge, they're not even in our Discord. I'm not going to start witch-hunting mutes, and surely no reasonable person would expect me to.

As you well know, this is not the topic of this thread. I'm regretting using the example now.

Agalaesia wrote:The Lazrene government may have been too agressive in their response,


In my opinion, their response a) is completely justifiable and b) wasn't aggressive enough.
HAIL THE CONFEDERATION!
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Honeydewistania
Minister
 
Posts: 2731
Founded: Jun 09, 2017
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Honeydewistania » Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:57 am

As much as I hate to say it, I agree with Jocospor for the last comment. I think jo was completely within his rights to demand that NSToday do not publish sensitive information. And it isn’t even flaming or trolling, it’s just being aggressive because you’re angry because someone leaked and a news org you have friendly relations with is going to release that information.
Ambassador to the WA: Benji Schubert Hepperle
Assistant to the Ambassador: Rekeil Wrigglesworth II
Official Coffee-fetcher and Masseuse: Jonathan Santos de Oliveira
Wonderess wrote:frankly someone I don’t want to see gain influence in NS and by extension TNP

she/her

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Agalaesia
Bureaucrat
 
Posts: 56
Founded: Sep 23, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Agalaesia » Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:11 am

Honeydewistania wrote:As much as I hate to say it, I agree with Jocospor for the last comment. I think jo was completely within his rights to demand that NSToday do not publish sensitive information. And it isn’t even flaming or trolling, it’s just being aggressive because you’re angry because someone leaked and a news org you have friendly relations with is going to release that information.

I agree, but I was referring to this in the article:

on the threat of prosecution as an organisation in Lazarus


Although that may just be hyperbole.
Agalaesia

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North Prarie
Diplomat
 
Posts: 932
Founded: Nov 04, 2017
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby North Prarie » Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:27 am

Jocospor wrote:Without really knowing what's going on:

The assertion has been made that NSToday is an "independent" organisation. I laugh at the thought. NSToday is clearly aligned with various factions of NationStates. They wouldn't let me join because I'm from CCD (call me salty, but hey, I could have made a meaningful contribution), so they clearly have an agenda.

Would you care to name these factions?
They're not run by any regions. This makes them an independent org. Try again.
Jocospor wrote:
The important thing to take away, however, is that NSToday does display a clear level of bias. This is why The NewsStand remains the ultimate NationStates inter-regional news provider

....the NewsStand is literally that. They're a News Stand. They have multiple news organizations to distribute. Including NSToday.
NSToday is a news corporation. We write the news. You can't compare the two.
And again, can you name these biases?
Jocospor wrote:You also have to remember that NSToday's board is predominantly comprised of players whose nations are government officers of various regions. That in itself is a serious tell.

A tell of....what?
Can people not have careers outside of NST? And, by the way, these 'various regions' come from many different sides of NS, so NST isn't some conspiracy propaganda outlet like you believe it to be because you're salty that we won't let people from fascist regions work for us.
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Boda
Diplomat
 
Posts: 540
Founded: Nov 14, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Boda » Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:53 am

Jocospor wrote:
Honeydewistania wrote: https://www.nationstates.net/nation=nor ... n_fascists

What’s that then? Looks pretty questionable.

To the best of my knowledge, the nation in question is strictly RPing. Again, to the best of my knowledge, they're not even in our Discord. I'm not going to start witch-hunting mutes, and surely no reasonable person would expect me to.


Not an excuse. If you truly wanted to make CCD as non-fascist as possible you would’ve yeeted them, sinple.

Jocospor wrote:As you well know, this is not the topic of this thread. I'm regretting using the example now.



In my opinion, their response a) is completely justifiable and b) wasn't aggressive enough.

Only because NST banned your main boy shrew (and rather all of CCD for that matter) you’re saying that lazarus needed to be more aggressive. And that’s exactly what you commented in this thread to do, show off your own spite for NST. Go away, Jocospor.
Last edited by Boda on Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lord Dominator
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6551
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Corporate Police State

Postby Lord Dominator » Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:27 am

Agalaesia wrote:I think that both sides were at fault here, to different degrees. The Lazrene government may have been too agressive in their response, especially if what NationStates Today is saying is to be believed (although I think that they might be overblowing what may have been a normal and expected exchange), however, NationStates Today shouldn't have published an inflammatory article calling Lazarus out for its so called "disrespect to media independence." Instead, they should have just published the article and dealt with the consequences afterwards, as that would have been more professional.

Very much this

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Sancta Romana Ecclesia
Envoy
 
Posts: 294
Founded: Aug 04, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Sancta Romana Ecclesia » Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:05 pm

Agalaesia wrote:NationStates Today shouldn't have published an inflammatory article calling Lazarus out for its so called "disrespect to media independence." Instead, they should have just published the article and dealt with the consequences afterwards, as that would have been more professional.

I agree with this. A part of me now believes that the NST wanted to preempt a hit, in a way, but failed at doing that.
The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:
Honeydewistania wrote:Why is it wrong to tell people not to use NSToday? It’s not like we said ‘we are going to raid you if you have relations with NSToday’.

Yet. Y'all are so shook over this I wouldn't be surprised if you did do that.

Hey, if this incident would cause Laz to abandon its neutrality, I would be the first one to thank NST for that xd But that's off-topic, I guess.
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The Church of Satan
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1312
Founded: Apr 15, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby The Church of Satan » Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:23 pm

Boda wrote:Only because NST banned your main boy shrew (and rather all of CCD for that matter) you’re saying that lazarus needed to be more aggressive. And that’s exactly what you commented in this thread to do, show off your own spite for NST. Go away, Jocospor.

Let's not make this about CCD or Jocospor. This whole (at this point useless) argument is about NS Today and Lazarus. Not trying to play moderator or anything. Just saying, this should be obvious. By now I can see only two ways this could end:

1.) NS Today follows through, posting the leak and just accepting the consequences which would be being charged with treason and probably an indefinite gag order on Lazarus' citizens with regards to NS Today.

2.) NS Today backs down and also deals with the consequences which would be censoring itself every time a region threatens them with legal action. Lazarus would be happy but relations between the two would be considerably strained for the foreseeable future.

Either way it's not exactly gonna be positive for NS Today. Lazarus will have to conduct an internal investigation to find the leaker and ban them from the region no matter which way it goes.
Last edited by The Church of Satan on Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Chanku: This isn't an election it's an assault on the eyes. | Ikania: Hear! The Gospel of... Satan. Erh...
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Boda
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Posts: 540
Founded: Nov 14, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Boda » Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:44 pm

Sounds like this was a trap from the very beginning!
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The Church of Satan
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1312
Founded: Apr 15, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby The Church of Satan » Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:48 pm

Boda wrote:Sounds like this was a trap from the very beginning!

"This is the Kobayashi Maru...."
The Rejected Realms: Former Delegate | Former Vice Delegate | Longest Consecutively Serving Officer in TRR History - 824 Days

Chanku: This isn't an election it's an assault on the eyes. | Ikania: Hear! The Gospel of... Satan. Erh...
Yuno: Not gonna yell, but CoS is one of the best delegates ever | Ever-Wandering Souls: In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

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Honeydewistania
Minister
 
Posts: 2731
Founded: Jun 09, 2017
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Honeydewistania » Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:59 pm

Boda wrote:Sounds like this was a trap from the very beginning!

A trap they laid for themselves, you mean.
Ambassador to the WA: Benji Schubert Hepperle
Assistant to the Ambassador: Rekeil Wrigglesworth II
Official Coffee-fetcher and Masseuse: Jonathan Santos de Oliveira
Wonderess wrote:frankly someone I don’t want to see gain influence in NS and by extension TNP

she/her

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Boda
Diplomat
 
Posts: 540
Founded: Nov 14, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Boda » Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:13 pm

Honeydewistania wrote:
Boda wrote:Sounds like this was a trap from the very beginning!

A trap they laid for themselves, you mean.

Sure
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Jocospor
Diplomat
 
Posts: 975
Founded: Nov 24, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby Jocospor » Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:37 pm

North Prarie wrote:
Jocospor wrote:Without really knowing what's going on:

The assertion has been made that NSToday is an "independent" organisation. I laugh at the thought. NSToday is clearly aligned with various factions of NationStates. They wouldn't let me join because I'm from CCD (call me salty, but hey, I could have made a meaningful contribution), so they clearly have an agenda.

Would you care to name these factions?
They're not run by any regions. This makes them an independent org. Try again.
Jocospor wrote:
The important thing to take away, however, is that NSToday does display a clear level of bias. This is why The NewsStand remains the ultimate NationStates inter-regional news provider

....the NewsStand is literally that. They're a News Stand. They have multiple news organizations to distribute. Including NSToday.
NSToday is a news corporation. We write the news. You can't compare the two.
And again, can you name these biases?
Jocospor wrote:You also have to remember that NSToday's board is predominantly comprised of players whose nations are government officers of various regions. That in itself is a serious tell.

A tell of....what?
Can people not have careers outside of NST? And, by the way, these 'various regions' come from many different sides of NS, so NST isn't some conspiracy propaganda outlet like you believe it to be because you're salty that we won't let people from fascist regions work for us.


1) They're not blatantly run by regions, no. However a) their board is comprised of some high-ranking NSGP players and ROs, and b) they have treaties with a selection of regions. So completely independent of various regional biases? I don't think so. "Try again."
2) No, I can compare the two, in that they both provide news to the NationStates community. In my opinion, one is much more effective than the other. Distribution of regional content is far superior to a selective company that a) affords the "main" regions/players a platform and b) contains inherent regional bias. The great thing about The NewsStand is that it gives even the smallest, arguably-irrelevant regions a voice. This indirectly leads to increased sharing of ideas and nurtures the spread of culture inter-regionally. Objectively, NSToday does this, but to a far lesser extent.
3) A tell of 1). Oh, I see, you're actually from NSToday. Case in point then, I guess.

Boda wrote:
Jocospor wrote:To the best of my knowledge, the nation in question is strictly RPing. Again, to the best of my knowledge, they're not even in our Discord. I'm not going to start witch-hunting mutes, and surely no reasonable person would expect me to.


Not an excuse. If you truly wanted to make CCD as non-fascist as possible you would’ve yeeted them, sinple.

Jocospor wrote:As you well know, this is not the topic of this thread. I'm regretting using the example now.



In my opinion, their response a) is completely justifiable and b) wasn't aggressive enough.

Only because NST banned your main boy shrew (and rather all of CCD for that matter) you’re saying that lazarus needed to be more aggressive. And that’s exactly what you commented in this thread to do, show off your own spite for NST. Go away, Jocospor.


1) Just ridiculous. Your region has a number of questionable nations within it too, as far as I'm concerned. Far leftism has killed just like far rightism has (actually more, statistically). Do you want to kick out all those players too? (Rhetorical.)
2) Again, no. You forget that I'm actually a regional founder whose managed to build something out of nothing. You're welcome to give it a shot, and we'll all watch how far you get with great interest.

*sigh* My founder instincts tell me that Lazarus should be extremely aggressive in their response to this, and should deal severely with their leaker. Not so long ago, a few CCD nations turned on me for the sheer sake of increasing their popularity ("February Snap" we've taken to calling it). Needless to say, it didn't really work; they got their 15mins of fame and are now at each other's throats in their splinter region. For most of NationStates, that was an interesting drama, as I'm sure this is now. But you all mistake me: I empathise with Lazarus, because I know what unjustified betrayal feels like.

In fact, speaking from personal experience, Lazarus probably just wants everyone to stop commenting on this and to be left alone until they have their leaker. So that's what I'm going to do. Best of luck to Lazarus, and CCD yet again condemns NSToday for its appalling lack of judgement.
HAIL THE CONFEDERATION!
CONFEDERATION OF CORRUPT DICTATORS | IMPERIAL OFFICES
JOCOSPOR | CENTRAL IMPERIAL DIREKTORATE


The Shadow Cult is rising...

User avatar
Honeydewistania
Minister
 
Posts: 2731
Founded: Jun 09, 2017
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Honeydewistania » Sun Jun 21, 2020 9:45 pm

Lazarus is trying its best to plug the leak.
Ambassador to the WA: Benji Schubert Hepperle
Assistant to the Ambassador: Rekeil Wrigglesworth II
Official Coffee-fetcher and Masseuse: Jonathan Santos de Oliveira
Wonderess wrote:frankly someone I don’t want to see gain influence in NS and by extension TNP

she/her

Managing Director of Lazarus
The MT Army Warrior
Need me? Click here!
Biggest acheivement: Spelling

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