NationStates Today

[Domais]

Well, ofc no one likes it, but NST is an independent news organization that isn't supposed to be beholden to any region. For example, if something from TSP got out, I probably wouldn't like it, but I would still respect freedom of the press. I don't understand why this is a hard concept for some.

The Lazarene Legal Code clearly uses the terminology of "any person" so the people at NST can potentially be charged as criminals under Lazarene Law.

[Honeydewistania]

As a former writer for NSToday, I’m saddened they are resorting to leaks to produce more content. It would had been fine once it had all been official, but you relied on traitors to get your News Source. I think NSToday have really damaged their reputation by doing this.

[Big Bad Badger]

I have spies in Osiris

Fuckin A man, I always knew it.

[Lord Dominator]

Yes, how dare NST publish information given to them by someone else, and then react poorly to threats to try and get other regions to not work with them if they publish it...

Reminds me, need to go and preorder "The Room Where It Happened"

Edit:

aforementioned NPO is a good example, when they violated our sovereignty throughout 2017 and 2018.

Which coincidentally, was revealed by a newspaper running articles based on leaks given to them by a third party, which were massively embarrassing to the NPO and which I'm sure Perg & co would have preferred not to be leaked.

[The Seeker of Power]

The New Pacific Order does not condone the leaking of private information from any source. We believe leaks, and leakers, are untrustworthy, unfair and unjust.

Laz: we wish you find your leaker and are able to properly deal with them as per your rules. We, and others, know how it feels when leakers hide beyond anonymity and are protected by those to whom they leaked to avoid controversy for their role.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

The New Pacific Order does not condone the leaking of private information from any source. We believe leaks, and leakers, are untrustworthy, unfair and unjust.

Laz: we wish you find your leaker and are able to properly deal with them as per your rules. We, and others, know how it feels when leakers hide beyond anonymity and are protected by those to whom they leaked to avoid controversy for their role.

Well no shit, given how bad y'all got burned by it, with regards to Lazarus no less.

[New Rogernomics]

Yes, how dare NST publish information given to them by someone else, and then react poorly to threats to try and get other regions to not work with them if they publish it...
Which coincidentally, was revealed by a newspaper running articles based on leaks given to them by a third party, which were massively embarrassing to the NPO and which I'm sure Perg & co would have preferred not to be leaked.

The screenshot only shows the wording, "let other regions know how NSToday treats with secure information". You could argue such illustrates a 'threat', though there is no mentioning of threatening to urge other regions to not work with them, instead it is implying to inform other regions how it "treats with secure information". Secure is the key word here, which defines it as different from information in general. It would be the threatening to "inform" that is the alleged threat, that would exist in that language. There is no evidence within the screenshot of language beyond that.

Which coincidentally, was revealed by a newspaper running articles based on leaks given to them by a third party, which were massively embarrassing to the NPO and which I'm sure Perg & co would have preferred not to be leaked.

And the NPO didn't criticize these leaks or the leakers in any way at this time? There is what is out of the ordinary, and what is expected. Hypothetically if something is leaked from a private legislative area it shouldn't be leaked from, and it is going to be published, what government in NS or any real life nation wouldn't object?*
*Wikileaks and accurate national/regional RP anyone?

[Lord Dominator]

Yes, how dare NST publish information given to them by someone else, and then react poorly to threats to try and get other regions to not work with them if they publish it...
Which coincidentally, was revealed by a newspaper running articles based on leaks given to them by a third party, which were massively embarrassing to the NPO and which I'm sure Perg & co would have preferred not to be leaked.

The screenshot only shows the wording, "let other regions know how NSToday treats with secure information". You could argue such illustrates a 'threat', though there is no mentioning of threatening to urge other regions to not work with them, instead it is implying to inform other regions how it "treats with secure information". Secure is the key word here, which defines it as different from information in general. It would be the threatening to "inform" that is the alleged threat, that would exist in that language. There is no evidence within the screenshot of language beyond that.

The fact that said informing was phrased as 'retaliation' for publishing isn't nearly as benign as you're making it out to be.

Which coincidentally, was revealed by a newspaper running articles based on leaks given to them by a third party, which were massively embarrassing to the NPO and which I'm sure Perg & co would have preferred not to be leaked.

And the NPO didn't criticize these leaks or the leakers in any way at this time? There is what is out of the ordinary, and what is expected. Hypothetically if something is leaked from a private legislative area it shouldn't be leaked from, and it is going to be published, what government in NS or any real life nation wouldn't object?*
*Wikileaks and accurate national/regional RP anyone?

Oh, most every government does object. They don't however usually attempt to stop newspapers from publishing information they've received from individuals leaking, and are usually condemned for censorship when they attempt to do so.

[New Rogernomics]

The fact that said informing was phrased as 'retaliation' for publishing isn't nearly as benign as you're making it out to be.

It does not become benign by the act of informing against an action versus the act of suggesting other regions not publish. Though if a threat is to be argued against or disagreed with, specific language is very important. Arguing in this situation that "publishing" is the subject rather than informing would be incorrect.

"Publicize" is used with the subject Lazarus in reference to it's own internal actions, then there is a functional separation of language between those internal actions and an external action i.e. "and will take action" is an entirely different branch of action(s).

In the next paragraph, "but we will retaliate against any and all organizations[...]" is used in reference to "their own gain", followed by "[...]and will encourage allies and partners to take similar action", and this has had no change in language as there is no instance of "publicize" or an alternative word equivalent in that paragraph.

Oh, most every government does object. They don't however usually attempt to stop newspapers from publishing information they've received from individuals leaking, and are usually condemned for censorship when they attempt to do so.

How would Lazarus do this, as it has no functional ability to go into NS Today and shut it down. It has allegedly made a threat, though has it has not actually suggested what that threat is beyond informing other regions or "take action". If Lazarus is openly saying it would say how bad NS Today has been to other regions, I am not sure how this shuts it down. Unless you believe that Lazarus somehow has owned NS Today's website all this time.

I should also state that my interest here isn't on who is right or wrong but the accurate application of language, and I don't put what region I am from in my signature for a good reason - as I don't claim to be representing any other view but my own.

[Qvait]

Well, ofc no one likes it, but NST is an independent news organization that isn't supposed to be beholden to any region. For example, if something from TSP got out, I probably wouldn't like it, but I would still respect freedom of the press. I don't understand why this is a hard concept for some.

The Lazarene Legal Code clearly uses the terminology of "any person" so the people at NST can potentially be charged as criminals under Lazarene Law.

You might as well charge me too since I was NST staff.

[Aumeltopia]

Lazarus has every right to be outraged by a leak from its private channels and attempt to enforce its laws, however unreasonable. NationStates Today has every right to perform investigative journalism and publish whatever it deems newsworthy content, outraged censors be damned. This is standard interplay between a government dedicated to an optimal foreign policy and a news organization dedicated to revealing truth.

NationStates Today is not a gameplay region. It doesn't do diplomacy and doesn't retreat from its values in order to make better politics.

Gameplay is, frankly, not used to the independent news organization as a form of institution. Gameplay journalism is usually state-produced, which means the community doesn't have a lot of experience with a real concept of freedom of the press. And yes, freedom of the press is a bargain: it means the opportunity to be better informed and have greater transparency and accountability, at the expense of, yes, the press sometimes doing things you would not want. Lazarus will have to figure out if that's a bargain they're willing to accept.

I won't speak to my personal feelings on the statement by the Board of NationStates Today. But I strongly encourage anyone who believes that the Organization acted inappropriately in any way to fill out the External Complaint form here. This may seem like an avenue only open to those who are personally affected by an action of the organization, but in fact it is one of the most powerful ways the public can express that it has a problem with the way NST or a member of its Board or Governors acted.

- Somyrion (Member of the Governors of NationStates Today, writing in a non-official capacity)

[North Prarie]

So, I can see both sides here:
Yes, on one hand, getting stuff leaked from a private channel isn't very fun, and it is espionage under the Laz criminal code.
On the other, NationStates Today is a news organization. I've been inside NST, and we had a very hard-lined code for dealing with leaks. If they're damaging and don't provide anything insightful, we didn't publish it.
The fact that Lazarus tried to intimidate an independent news organization into not publishing a story because it may not be flattering to them has me very concerned about the state of the region.

[Bormiar]

It doesn't do diplomacy

What does NationStates today think diplomacy means? NationStates Today attempts to establish treaties -- yes, treaties that apparently don't involve diplomacy -- promising benefits if content is given to NationStates Today. It attempts to take a role in elections, such as Lazarus' Prime Minister election and Thalassia's election debates (they stopped going to NST, as will Laz ofc). But apparently that's not "diplomacy". In order to assist in NationStates Today writers' literacy, I leave the only two Oxford English Dictionary definitions of "diplomacy" that fit this contextually and grammatically:

"The management of international relations by negotiation; the method by which these relations are adjusted and managed by ambassadors and envoys; the business or art of the diplomatist; skill or address in the conduct of international intercourse and negotiations"	Applies by definition to any organization which writes foreign updates such as this one, makes a treaty, etc. Unless, of course, NationStates Today feels that its wish is everyone else's command, and it doesn't need to negotiate (non-negotiable terms of agreement does not apply to this, as you would still negotiate whether they take the agreement).
"Skill or address in the management of relations of any kind; artful management in dealing with others."	When dealing diplomatically, NationStates Today isn't socially incompetent, right?.

Unless you mean that NationStates Today is very bad at deciphering the meaning of old documents (an uncommon definition).

I bring this up because the crux of this hypocrisy is that NationStates Today brands itself as a region which can negotiate with and be trusted by regions. It has organized treaties to gain content from regional newspapers of many major regions, such as Balder, Europeia, and others. It has attempted election debates for Thalassia and Lazarus. It expects-- it needs -- the cooperation of regional government members for much of its content. Yet it turns around and declares that it will not recognize or support the laws of those governments. Would any reasonable region make a treaty giving content to Miniluv? This is hubris, manipulation, and betrayal. And it's easy to see through.

NationStates Today can have its free press, but it needs to understand that freedom does not mean freedom from consequence. All self-respecting governments should severe relations with NationStates Today for this clear disrespect.

I won't speak to my personal feelings on the statement by the Board of NationStates Today. But I strongly encourage anyone who believes that the Organization acted inappropriately in any way to fill out the External Complaint form here. This may seem like an avenue only open to those who are personally affected by an action of the organization, but in fact it is one of the most powerful ways the public can express that it has a problem with the way NST or a member of its Board or Governors acted.

Surely NationStates Today, an alleged proponent of "free press", believes that opinions should be shared publicly, rather than buried away in a ditch somewhere? NationStates Today isn't doing anything now, why should we believe that it will if we fill out your form? No one should cloister and hide their opinion under the guise of your bureaucracy. Opinions are best fit to be shared in this thread.

This isn't personal as I know you're only doing your duty to the organization, but this post reeks of manipulation and corruption. It's also quite similar to what I heard when I was a governor of NationStates Today, so this whole scenario isn't atypical.

[Qvait]

I mean, I no longer work at NST but I agree with everything Aumeltopia said.

[Lord Dominator]

The fact that said informing was phrased as 'retaliation' for publishing isn't nearly as benign as you're making it out to be.

It does not become benign by the act of informing against an action versus the act of suggesting other regions not publish. Though if a threat is to be argued against or disagreed with, specific language is very important. Arguing in this situation that "publishing" is the subject rather than informing would be incorrect.

"Publicize" is used with the subject Lazarus in reference to it's own internal actions, then there is a functional separation of language between those internal actions and an external action i.e. "and will take action" is an entirely different branch of action(s).

In the next paragraph, "but we will retaliate against any and all organizations[...]" is used in reference to "their own gain", followed by "[...]and will encourage allies and partners to take similar action", and this has had no change in language as there is no instance of "publicize" or an alternative word equivalent in that paragraph.

I disagree and think we're getting into semantics, but it's also getting into semantics above my head, so I'll concede the point or something

Oh, most every government does object. They don't however usually attempt to stop newspapers from publishing information they've received from individuals leaking, and are usually condemned for censorship when they attempt to do so.

How would Lazarus do this, as it has no functional ability to go into NS Today and shut it down. It has allegedly made a threat, though has it has not actually suggested what that threat is beyond informing other regions or "take action". If Lazarus is openly saying it would say how bad NS Today has been to other regions, I am not sure how this shuts it down. Unless you believe that Lazarus somehow has owned NS Today's website all this time.[/quote]
I don't believe I've said that I think Lazarus is trying to shut down NS Today or otherwise directly harm them, my point here is that the given statement from Jo would seem to indicate that Lazarus is pressuring NST to not run a given story, and are doing so by both asking them not to and indicated consequences for not doing as requested. This would rather seem to me to be an attempt to stop NST from publishing information received from an as-of-yet unknown leaker.

[Dendarii Mercenaries]

NSGP as a whole is no more entitled to see the private goings on of the Lazarene Assembly than we are to see those of other regions' legislatures.

Why are you surprised that distributing the results of espionage is going to have consequences?

Just like the consequences the APC got for acting on leaked information from a blacklisted player right? You know the thing where everyone got together in outrage and dogpiled on the APC? or that time and the other time and the other time and the other time and the other time, everyone dogpiled on Miniluv Messenger and it too had to face these so called consequences? It was so bad, that neither are active today.

[Custadia]

Just like the consequences the APC got for acting on leaked information from a blacklisted player right? You know the thing where everyone got together in outrage and dogpiled on the APC? or that time and the other time and the other time and the other time and the other time, everyone dogpiled on Miniluv Messenger and it too had to face these so called consequences? It was so bad, that neither are active today.

I don't recall the NPO being ecstatic about those leaks.

[Moialia]

How do I collaborate in this magazine?
I want to create a section called: "AMA: Derudites Edition"

[Dendarii Mercenaries]

Just like the consequences the APC got for acting on leaked information from a blacklisted player right? You know the thing where everyone got together in outrage and dogpiled on the APC? or that time and the other time and the other time and the other time and the other time, everyone dogpiled on Miniluv Messenger and it too had to face these so called consequences? It was so bad, that neither are active today.

I don't recall the NPO being ecstatic about those leaks.

Indeed. If from those leaks we liken NPO to Lazarus here and Miniluv/Etc as NSToday you'd only see that ONLY the NPO was bashed. Not saying those leaks were a good thing or a bad thing for the NPO. What I am saying, leaks are okay if a majority of loud voices say so and leaks are not okay if a majority of loud voices say so? So which is it?

Do we allow people to publish leaks that they receive without consequence? Do we punish every person connected to leaks even if they are not the info thieves? or do we pick a choose like hypocrites based on fleeting perceptions and public opinions?

By all means, the person that betrayed Lazarus should be punished by Lazarus if found out, and they should take a reputation hit around town. But what does that have to do with punishing NSToday for reasons of consequences? Nothing.

[Gorundu]

I don't recall the NPO being ecstatic about those leaks.

Indeed. If from those leaks we liken NPO to Lazarus here and Miniluv/Etc as NSToday you'd only see that ONLY the NPO was bashed. Not saying those leaks were a good thing or a bad thing for the NPO. What I am saying, leaks are okay if a majority of loud voices say so and leaks are not okay if a majority of loud voices say so? So which is it?

Do we allow people to publish leaks that they receive without consequence? Do we punish every person connected to leaks even if they are not the info thieves? or do we pick a choose like hypocrites based on fleeting perceptions and public opinions?

By all means, the person that betrayed Lazarus should be punished by Lazarus if found out, and they should take a reputation hit around town. But what does that have to do with punishing NSToday for reasons of consequences? Nothing.

Well, you see, the difference is that Lazarus literally has a treaty with NSToday (technically "cross-promotional agreement", but same thing), and you would expect a treaty partner not to violate your law, no? You can't eat your cake and have it too. You can't pretend to be friends on one hand and violating their laws on the other.

[Todd McCloud]

Just trust me on this one. Even if someone in Laz did threaten to "let other regions know how NSToday treats with secure information", they didn't have to. It's posted right here. Other regions are just beginning to find out and discuss this. It's only been about 24 hours or so, and with NS drama kinda low right now, it'll be discussed for at least a few more pages over the course of a few days. Regions formulate their own opinions on matters such as this and, as the above post mentioned, the fact that this relationship could be looked at as one with a "treatied" ally, will drastically change the opinions and interactions this paper has with regions going forward. See, things will change, with or without any region or entity attempting to damage reputation or credibility.

It takes years to build up credibility, but only one bad decision to knock a good chunk of it down.

I keep seeing stuff like "well, Miniluv did it, so why's it not okay here?" That's all in expectations, really. People know what Miniluv does, so the expectations are already established. The expectations for other news sources are different, but of course are subject to change with each passing issue.

[Aynia Moreaux]

Well, you see, the difference is that Lazarus literally has a treaty with NSToday (technically "cross-promotional agreement", but same thing), and you would expect a treaty partner not to violate your law, no? You can't eat your cake and have it too. You can't pretend to be friends on one hand and violating their laws on the other.

If you don't mind me interjecting to clarify, I don't believe Lazarus does have a cross promotional agreement with NST or a treaty of any sort. Now I'm not going to get into any of the above, but I did want to say something to clarify that fact.

[Honeydewistania]

Well, you see, the difference is that Lazarus literally has a treaty with NSToday (technically "cross-promotional agreement", but same thing), and you would expect a treaty partner not to violate your law, no? You can't eat your cake and have it too. You can't pretend to be friends on one hand and violating their laws on the other.

If you don't mind me interjecting to clarify, I don't believe Lazarus does have a cross promotional agreement with NST or a treaty of any sort. Now I'm not going to get into any of the above, but I did want to say something to clarify that fact.

It appears it was only a proposed treaty from my knowledge

[New Rogernomics]

If you don't mind me interjecting to clarify, I don't believe Lazarus does have a cross promotional agreement with NST or a treaty of any sort. Now I'm not going to get into any of the above, but I did want to say something to clarify that fact.

It appears it was only a proposed treaty from my knowledge

An agreement was signed, though I don't know if it is still in effect given recent events. That's something for NS Today and/or the Lazarene governent to decide. Though I don't think treaty is word I'd use specifically to describe it. To my recollection NS Today doesn't form treaties but partnership agreements to do with intellectual property and such.

[Altino]

NSGP as a whole is no more entitled to see the private goings on of the Lazarene Assembly than we are to see those of other regions' legislatures.

Why are you surprised that distributing the results of espionage is going to have consequences?

Just like the consequences the APC got for acting on leaked information from a blacklisted player right? You know the thing where everyone got together in outrage and dogpiled on the APC? or that time and the other time and the other time and the other time and the other time, everyone dogpiled on Miniluv Messenger and it too had to face these so called consequences? It was so bad, that neither are active today.

:roll:

Well, jeez, man, let's not get dramatic. Lol. I don't think we're in "cancel NSToday for life" territory. These things involved leaks, but they are not comparable. And NST publishing these leaks as an independent news source, as I've said, is a little bit skeevy, but not a really hard hitting problem. If I were Lazarus, I would not touch NST with a ten foot pole after that, especially now that Lazarus has to permanently deal with the knowledge that someone in their region is leaking for the sole purpose of causing trouble for them, and they have no idea who. But if I were NST I would not give up my sources either. How else are they going to be trusted to get sources in the future? This part is all very unfortunate for Lazarus, but to me is nothing for the rest of us to really stomp our feet about.

Where we really reach foot stomping territory is in this announcement. Here we find
1) Their PR solution to knowingly pissing a region off is to attempt to hurt the reputation of that region with further leaking. They have an apparent hard policy on leaking, given by North Prarie:

they're damaging and don't provide anything insightful, we didn't publish it.

But unless you see the knowledge that Lazarus doesn't appreciate being leaked from and will take action when it happens as big news, this is not particularly insightful, is definitely damaging, and seems to run against their own policies. Posting these leaks and this statement were a hit and run specifically to slosh off responsibility and turn the spotlight on Lazarus instead of themselves.
2) Cosmos are bad. They're bad, they are. And this is exactly why. Some citizen of Lazarus who may or may not have been NST staff leaked Lazarene insider info. There is nothing I can see that reasonably can be done about that, aside from Laz just saying TELL US! and NST saying NEVER! However, the person who was writing the article in question containing Lazarene leaks, the person who approached Jo for more information regarding it and received these further leaked DMs, the person who posted this statement to blast Jo and Lazarus... this person was also a citizen of Lazarus. Does he stop becoming a citizen of Lazarus when he enters other servers? It is against his interests as NST staff to not run the leak, but it is literally illegal for him to run them as a citizen of Lazarus. That's really unnerving to me. Clearly loyalty to Lazarus is not high on his priority list, which is fine. Whatever. But it makes me nervous about NST staff roaming around our regions, watching our channels. NST current and former staff have all bounced in so far with a "no, this was totally fine to do" attitude. Where we do fall on their priority list?

I mean, take me with a grain of salt, of course. I'm not involved in Lazarus, and I am good friends with lots of people in NST, but nepotism toward my friends in NST has still not been strong enough to compel me not to really hate NST. I've never liked them, I feel like they make bad and damaging decisions. I do try to help them, because that's who I am as a person, but everyone knows I don't like them. So. I will admit a bias here. :) But I still find this leak/statement incredibly irresponsible and this whole kerfuffle from a Lazarene perspective has definite been illegal.