Pacifica Embassy: Relocation to Thalassia

[Yokiria]

I didn't say it would be soon, just that other raider groups, including the most prominent TBH, are a much bigger threat to the region than the NPO or any of the other feeders. Raiders will raid. And an easy target is an easy target.

A potential target that allies with raiders is rarely an actual target of raiders.

[Cormactopia Prime]

The NPO was already cancelling the treaty. All the APC did was capitalize on it to try and mark it as their victory. Nothing but opportunism.

Yeah, it really sounds like as the NPO left, the APC swooped in to take its place. Can I also ask why Topid is ruling through a puppet? That seems a bit weird.

Topid isn't just some APC guy, he's the oldest remaining native of St Abbaddon. Not that the opinions of a couple random NPO puppets matter.

Yep, because it's totally logical TBH would hit a region they just helped get Topid back in.

I didn't say it would be soon, just that other raider groups, including the most prominent TBH, are a much bigger threat to the region than the NPO or any of the other feeders. Raiders will raid. And an easy target is an easy target.

Yet oddly, it was the NPO that occupied St Abbaddon for months, and TBH that tried to free St Abbaddon in November. Raiders don't make a habit of raiding friendly regions, so I'm not expecting to see TBH or any other mainstream raider regions posing a threat to St Abbaddon in the foreseeable future.

[Pierconium]

Actually, no. St Abbaddon and The Pacific ended on amicable terms. While we were still in a formal relationship, Kitsco made efforts to invite Topid back. At first they were conditional, but later on Kitsco offered an unconditional return to Topid on several occasions. We sanctioned this effort, as the major issues with Topid were centered in the previous administration, and I personally told Kitsco that they could withdraw from the treaty in order to make peace with Topid in St Abbaddon. I also told Kitsco that if Topid did not turn St Abbaddon into an anti-Pacific haven upon his return, we would be willing to aid St Abbaddon - with Topid as an active member - against raiders. St Abbaddon and The Pacific ended a formal relationship, but St Abbaddon I said had earned our friendship even without a treaty in place. Topid's return was sanctioned and the option for St Abbaddon to leave the treaty without any backlash from us to make amends with Topid was offered by The Pacific. This was not a recent effort. It dates a month or so back.

So, I am not sure about this whole thing, but the APC told me that the situation was that NPO was being kicked out. 'Forcefully Ejected' was the term used.

I feel like I am not getting the real story on either side here...

If the APC told you this you should ask for clarification because it is incorrect. The nation that said this to you either lied, was lied to, or took certain things out of context. Kitsco ejected NPO nations that were in the region after the conclusion of our treaty cancellation period, and not one minute before (in fact several hours after I believe). The NPO left of its own free will. It was not 'kicked out'. Those are facts. Spin and revisionism aside, to state otherwise regarding the sequence of events is a lie.

[Cormactopia Prime]

So, I am not sure about this whole thing, but the APC told me that the situation was that NPO was being kicked out. 'Forcefully Ejected' was the term used.

I feel like I am not getting the real story on either side here...

If the APC told you this you should ask for clarification because it is incorrect. The nation that said this to you either lied, was lied to, or took certain things out of context. Kitsco ejected NPO nations that were in the region after the conclusion of our treaty cancellation period, and not one minute before (in fact several hours after I believe). The NPO left of its own free will. It was not 'kicked out'. Those are facts. Spin and revisionism aside, to state otherwise regarding the sequence of events is a lie.

I can confirm Kitsco ejected only the NPO forces that were still in St Abbaddon after the treaty expired, and did so with the NPO's consent. All of that is publicly documented on this very forum. If someone told folks the NPO was kicked out, they were misinformed and that wasn't accurate.

[Airengard]

Yeah, it really sounds like as the NPO left, the APC swooped in to take its place. Can I also ask why Topid is ruling through a puppet? That seems a bit weird.

Topid isn't just some APC guy, he's the oldest remaining native of St Abbaddon. Not that the opinions of a couple random NPO puppets matter.

First, I only stated that you capitalized on what was happening, because it was a beyond transparent ploy. Never accused Topid of being some random APC, that was the other person.
Second, calling anyone who doesn't agree with you a puppet really is a mature reaction, innit? Not that maturity was expected from you. Do keep disregarding the actual natives of The Pacific so you can keep peddling yourselves as our saviours.

[Doing it Rightland]

Yeah, it really sounds like as the NPO left, the APC swooped in to take its place. Can I also ask why Topid is ruling through a puppet? That seems a bit weird.

Topid isn't just some APC guy, he's the oldest remaining native of St Abbaddon. Not that the opinions of a couple random NPO puppets matter.

1. I'm insulted by the fact you think I'm a puppet.
2. I'm aware he isn't just APC. I'm asking why he's ruling through the nation Frankland rather than the existing Topid. That part doesn't make sense to me.

[Unibot III]

2. I'm aware he isn't just APC. I'm asking why he's ruling through the nation Frankland rather than the existing Topid. That part doesn't make sense to me.

Probably a reference to TannerFrankLand.

>_>

<_<

God, I'm old.

[Drop Your Pants]

I'm very curious as to what raider groups you're referring. Osiris is involved with getting Topid back in. So was TRI. This just makes no sense lol.

TI (if they ever wake up again) or a future incarnation could do it. All it'll take is for Topid to go to sleep for a few days/a week and we'll be going through this whole mess again.

They should have taken the founder option all those years ago, would have saved us all years of grief.

[Altinsane]

Topid isn't just some APC guy, he's the oldest remaining native of St Abbaddon. Not that the opinions of a couple random NPO puppets matter.

1. I'm insulted by the fact you think I'm a puppet.
2. I'm aware he isn't just APC. I'm asking why he's ruling through the nation Frankland rather than the existing Topid. That part doesn't make sense to me.

Truthfully because he just felt like it. And judging by Kitsco's reaction on their RMB, I would guess a bit of an inside joke between natives about Topid having a confusing number of puppets.

[Cormactopia Prime]

I'm very curious as to what raider groups you're referring. Osiris is involved with getting Topid back in. So was TRI. This just makes no sense lol.

TI (if they ever wake up again) or a future incarnation could do it. All it'll take is for Topid to go to sleep for a few days/a week and we'll be going through this whole mess again.

They should have taken the founder option all those years ago, would have saved us all years of grief.

You all seem to be forgetting or conveniently ignoring that Topid is going to be recruiting. They're not going to be at some tiny amount of endorsements, they're going to have a decent sized population and not be constantly vulnerable to raids. They're also going to have a lot more people, beyond just defenders, looking out for them and willing to defend them for the foreseeable future. So I think the threat of invasion is being way exaggerated.

[The Gilded Star]

Now that Topid is no longer a native-in-exile, and St. Abbaddon is no longer an NPO Protectorate and can be considered fully native-controlled, I suspect many Defender regions will now be more free to protect the region from any future danger should they so desire.

Combine that with Topid's many allies, sisterhood with Pacifica, and St. Abbaddon's Council, and I think it will be a hard-pressed region for any would-be raiders to seize for the foreseeable future.

[Dragonisia]

Now that Topid is no longer a native-in-exile, and St. Abbaddon is no longer an NPO Protectorate and can be considered fully native-controlled, I suspect many Defender regions will now be more free to protect the region from any future danger should they so desire.

Combine that with Topid's many allies, sisterhood with Pacifica, and St. Abbaddon's Council, and I think it will be a hard-pressed region for any would-be raiders to seize for the foreseeable future.

We literally have friends on both sides and elect to co-exist. It is the ideal outcome.

[Drop Your Pants]

You all seem to be forgetting or conveniently ignoring that Topid is going to be recruiting. They're not going to be at some tiny amount of endorsements, they're going to have a decent sized population and not be constantly vulnerable to raids. They're also going to have a lot more people, beyond just defenders, looking out for them and willing to defend them for the foreseeable future. So I think the threat of invasion is being way exaggerated.

I wasn't saying now. Maybe in a year or so when things quiet down. Hope it doesn't get raided though. Maybe a repeal to the Lib at some point.

[Doing it Rightland]

Truthfully because he just felt like it. And judging by Kitsco's reaction on their RMB, I would guess a bit of an inside joke between natives about Topid having a confusing number of puppets.

That's a bit annoying. Thanks for the answer, though!

Another question for Cormactopia Prime, I'm confused as to the role Pacifica played in the negotiations, as the main issue was the delegacy, and thus a matter between Kitsco and Topid. Was Pacifica present to act as a mediator and to prevent escalation, or was Pacifica negotiating on behalf of Topid, using their influence as leverage? If the former is the case, then would you mind explaining how, despite Topid's role as founder of Pacifica, that there was no conflict of interest on Pacifica's part? If the latter is the case, then does this whole affair not also present an instance of a larger region imposing a will that benefits its interests on a smaller region? I'm just trying to get a handle on how it all happened as most of us can only see the result of the negotiations.

[Jokesters]

I can confirm Kitsco ejected only the NPO forces that were still in St Abbaddon after the treaty expired, and did so with the NPO's consent. All of that is publicly documented on this very forum. If someone told folks the NPO was kicked out, they were misinformed and that wasn't accurate.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1152879

quote from your dispatch:
In closing, the Republic of Pacifica wishes to emphasize that the NPO's surrender in St Abbaddon

Sooooo couple things between somethings and this post......

1) you claimed victory over the NPO after we ended the protectorate agreement with them...
2) You said that we "surrendered" even though you just claimed in your above post that the treaty expired with NPO's consent, not much of a surrender, which directly contradicts your above statement of: "If someone told folks the NPO was kicked out, they were misinformed and that wasn't accurate."
3) Also, you continue to contradict yourself with: " we will be prepared to respond to any threat to St Abbaddon, especially from the NPO, at the request of the Delegate and his government.", This implies we weren't willingly leaving St.Abbaddon and will raid it even though we just left
4) Here: we have demonstrated our victory over the NPO, you again claim victory over nothing and contradict that we left willingly
Anyways

my opinion is that you contradict yourself way too much and need to get stuff straight with your other points/posts before I can take what you post as valid

[The Tri State Area and Maine]

I can confirm Kitsco ejected only the NPO forces that were still in St Abbaddon after the treaty expired, and did so with the NPO's consent. All of that is publicly documented on this very forum. If someone told folks the NPO was kicked out, they were misinformed and that wasn't accurate.

https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1152879

quote from your dispatch:
In closing, the Republic of Pacifica wishes to emphasize that the NPO's surrender in St Abbaddon

Sooooo couple things between somethings and this post......

1) you claimed victory over the NPO after we ended the protectorate agreement with them...
2) You said that we "surrendered" even though you just claimed in your above post that the treaty expired with NPO's consent, not much of a surrender, which directly contradicts your above statement of: "If someone told folks the NPO was kicked out, they were misinformed and that wasn't accurate."
3) Also, you continue to contradict yourself with: " we will be prepared to respond to any threat to St Abbaddon, especially from the NPO, at the request of the Delegate and his government.", This implies we weren't willingly leaving St.Abbaddon and will raid it even though we just left
4) Here: we have demonstrated our victory over the NPO, you again claim victory over nothing and contradict that we left willingly
Anyways

my opinion is that you contradict yourself way too much and need to get stuff straight with your other points/posts before I can take what you post as valid

You willingly surrendered it. You gave up St. Abbaddon to someone who hates the NPO. I imagine you didn't want to do that.

[Jokesters]

You willingly surrendered it. You gave up St. Abbaddon to someone who hates the NPO. I imagine you didn't want to do that.

We didn’t give st abbaddon to anyone, nor surrendured, we ended the procterate agreement because they weren’t upholding it and then the APC took advantage that the NPO was leaving. So the NPO wasn’t surrendering anything to anyone and this “victory” isn’t really a victory but just taking a region that was defenseless.

[Yokiria]

We didn’t give st abbaddon to anyone, nor surrendured, we ended the procterate agreement because they weren’t upholding it and then the APC took advantage that the NPO was leaving. So the NPO wasn’t surrendering anything to anyone and this “victory” isn’t really a victory but just taking a region that was defenseless.

I can already tell what you did, Jokesters. You came into this thread ready to defend the NPO's honor like a good little soldier, you skimmed over the rhetoric, and assumed there was a raid without bothering to gather the facts. That's why you're arguing that the APC raided a defenseless region, when that isn't what happened at all. In fact, that's what was avoided thanks to the negotiations.

No-one took a region that was defenseless. Nobody took St. Abbaddon here. Topid was allowed back into his home. The peace talks were successful. No raid took place.

So, next time you want to tell us what really happened, maybe you should do your research first so you don't embarrass yourself.

[Doing it Rightland]

Again, I have a question for anyone in the APC, especially leaders. Was the APC involved in the negotiations as a mediator or on behalf of Topid? If they were a mediator, does that not present the risk of a conflict of interest (since Topid founded Pacifica, leader of the APC)? If they were negotiating on behalf of Topid, does that not represent a region meddling in the affairs of others, a common critique of the NPO? Any explanation would be helpful.

[A Bloodred Moon]

Again, I have a question for anyone in the APC, especially leaders. Was the APC involved in the negotiations as a mediator or on behalf of Topid? If they were a mediator, does that not present the risk of a conflict of interest (since Topid founded Pacifica, leader of the APC)? If they were negotiating on behalf of Topid, does that not represent a region meddling in the affairs of others, a common critique of the NPO? Any explanation would be helpful.

Kuriko mediated. Reading anything before posting about it might be useful. You also didn't get Pacifica isn't the "leader of the APC", as to "meddling in the affairs of others", Cormac negotiating on behalf of his friend would be equal to the NPO? Now that's just sad.

Also, since you didn't bother to read, I'll repost this here: https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=1152879

[Airengard]

We didn’t give st abbaddon to anyone, nor surrendured, we ended the procterate agreement because they weren’t upholding it and then the APC took advantage that the NPO was leaving. So the NPO wasn’t surrendering anything to anyone and this “victory” isn’t really a victory but just taking a region that was defenseless.

I can already tell what you did, Jokesters. You came into this thread ready to defend the NPO's honor like a good little soldier, you skimmed over the rhetoric, and assumed there was a raid without bothering to gather the facts. That's why you're arguing that the APC raided a defenseless region, when that isn't what happened at all. In fact, that's what was avoided thanks to the negotiations.

No-one took a region that was defenseless. Nobody took St. Abbaddon here. Topid was allowed back into his home. The peace talks were successful. No raid took place.

So, next time you want to tell us what really happened, maybe you should do your research first so you don't embarrass yourself.

While he might be wrong on the region having been taken (I don't simply say it was not taken cause I do not presume to know every backroom deal and behind the scenes politicking around) by the APC, his first point on his first post about Cormac just flip flopping around on what he says is still very much valid. The biggest point here was that the NPO didn't surrender as a certain dispatch says. The NPO was leaving because of a breach in the treaty (and don't tell me it didn't exist. The treaty is easy enough to access and the terms easy enough to read. The breach is as clear as day for anyone who doesn't wear a blindfold constantly) and part of the APC took it as an opportunity to claim a non-existent victory over the NPO.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Again, I have a question for anyone in the APC, especially leaders. Was the APC involved in the negotiations as a mediator or on behalf of Topid? If they were a mediator, does that not present the risk of a conflict of interest (since Topid founded Pacifica, leader of the APC)? If they were negotiating on behalf of Topid, does that not represent a region meddling in the affairs of others, a common critique of the NPO? Any explanation would be helpful.

The details of negotiations are between those involved, and won't be further discussed here. The outcome of negotiations is that Topid has been restored to the Delegacy with the consent of former Delegate Kitsco and his government, all natives will be able to continue to participate in rebuilding and reform, the NPO is gone, and native self-determination has been restored. No one could possibly have achieved a better outcome, and certainly not the NPO, which first sought to pit natives against each other and then tossed St Abbaddon aside. You have a lot of nerve questioning and criticizing the process that led to this outcome, when it was your region's government that caused the native conflict in the first place. We fixed what the NPO broke.

[Yokiria]

While he might be wrong on the region having been taken (I don't simply say it was not taken cause I do not presume to know every backroom deal and behind the scenes politicking around) by the APC, his first point on his first post about Cormac just flip flopping around on what he says is still very much valid. The biggest point here was that the NPO didn't surrender as a certain dispatch says. The NPO was leaving because of a breach in the treaty (and don't tell me it didn't exist. The treaty is easy enough to access and the terms easy enough to read. The breach is as clear as day for anyone who doesn't wear a blindfold constantly) and part of the APC took it as an opportunity to claim a non-existent victory over the NPO.

St. Abbaddon was a proxy war between the APC and the NPO, and the NPO withdrew, using breaches in the Protectorate treaty that predated the proxy war itself.

The truth of the matter is that the treaty had been breached for months, and was only acted on now. Those (justifiably) less inclined to take the NPO's word at face value claim that this is because the NPO didn't want keep their forces locked down in St. Abbaddon when their delegacy transition is struggling more than normal. Even those that have been critical of the APC have noted the struggles of East Durthang to gather endorsements. Now, all of those endorsements that were stuck in St. Abbaddon can help the Pacific resolve issues at home.

If you truly believe the pragmatic and realistic explanation is false, and buy into the NPO's sudden revocation of a treaty based on breaches they took no issue with before, then you're entitled to do so. All I'd ask though, if you're not going to see this for what it is, is that you don't try to drag others down with you into your world of ignorance.

[Jokesters]

We didn’t give st abbaddon to anyone, nor surrendured, we ended the procterate agreement because they weren’t upholding it and then the APC took advantage that the NPO was leaving. So the NPO wasn’t surrendering anything to anyone and this “victory” isn’t really a victory but just taking a region that was defenseless.

I can already tell what you did, Jokesters. You came into this thread ready to defend the NPO's honor like a good little soldier, you skimmed over the rhetoric, and assumed there was a raid without bothering to gather the facts. That's why you're arguing that the APC raided a defenseless region, when that isn't what happened at all. In fact, that's what was avoided thanks to the negotiations.

No-one took a region that was defenseless. Nobody took St. Abbaddon here. Topid was allowed back into his home. The peace talks were successful. No raid took place.

So, next time you want to tell us what really happened, maybe you should do your research first so you don't embarrass yourself.

Actually, that wasn’t my point, and also never said there was a raid, if you find something confusing then I should have probably worded it better! My entire point was to point out that Cormac was contradicting himself. And for your information, I am in the legio and was in St Abbaddon since the pile off so I knew there was no raid. I came here to discuss, not be called a “good little soldier” and be spat upon because I am expressing my opinions and wanted to point something out

EDIT: I also checked the facts before I posted, and my sources which I posted as well

[Doing it Rightland]

Kuriko mediated.

The dispatch states Kuriko was an observer. To me (and many others, I assume) an observer watches, but does not involve themselves. Hence, I assumed that another body had actually involved themselves in mediation, instead of Kuriko. Nevertheless, thank you for the clarification on the language.

Reading anything before posting about it might be useful.

Yes, that's why I did.

You also didn't get Pacifica isn't the "leader of the APC", as to "meddling in the affairs of others", Cormac negotiating on behalf of his friend would be equal to the NPO? Now that's just sad.

First, it's never been clear who or what comprises the APC. If there were a definitive point of contact or representative for the APC, it might help towards a more unified negotiating platform with the NPO. So far, the major actions and policies of the APC have been almost exclusively published by Pacifica, so I naturally assumed them to be in charge.

As to "meddling", from the way the dispatch is written, it does not state Cormac entered negotiations on behalf of a friend. It states "the Republic of Pacifica entered into negotiations" which to me clearly indicated a full region exerting influence. If it was indeed just Cormac on behalf of a friend, then yes such a claim would be false. Had the dispatch described the negotiations as a single nation on behalf of Topid, rather than a full region, I would not have made such claims.

The details of negotiations are between those involved, and won't be further discussed here. The outcome of negotiations is that Topid has been restored to the Delegacy with the consent of former Delegate Kitsco and his government, all natives will be able to continue to participate in rebuilding and reform, the NPO is gone, and native self-determination has been restored. No one could possibly have achieved a better outcome, and certainly not the NPO, which first sought to pit natives against each other and then tossed St Abbaddon aside. You have a lot of nerve questioning and criticizing the process that led to this outcome, when it was your region's government that caused the native conflict in the first place. We fixed what the NPO broke.

Very well. If the negotiations must be kept secret, then keep them secret. I agree, the resulting peace is impressive, and I do commend you on a peaceful resolution. I do want to make it clear that I do not condone the actions of the NPO in St Abbadon, nor anywhere else for that matter. I simply want to get the full story, which is difficult considering neither side wants to cooperate with another to share information.

And yeah, I might have a bit of nerve. So what? I'm allowed to ask questions. When the truth doesn't come out, bad things happen. Case in point, the NPO's past. They weren't truthful, and bad stuff happened.