NationStates

Qwabour Harbour wrote:However, the Kingdom of Great Britain has been blacklisted until very recently.

Wow!
I am blacklisted... that is interesting

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In recent days, the New Pacific Order (NPO), the ruling regime of the Pacific, has been invited to participate in anti-fascist operations conducted by the organization Antifa. Pacifica has been a member region of Antifa and has actively participated in Antifa operations for approximately two months, but unfortunately we have been forced to abstain from Antifa operations involving the NPO pending discussion of NPO involvement. Following that discussion, it is clear that the NPO will continue to be invited to participate in Antifa operations, making Pacifica's continued membership in Antifa untenable. We are bound not only by principle, but also by treaty law, to refuse any diplomatic, military, or cultural relations with the NPO, and this includes military cooperation through Antifa. Therefore, effective immediately, Pacifica withdraws from Antifa and we reiterate our position that we will not cooperate with the NPO in any capacity or for any reason bar their participation in defense of a region we are legally obligated to defend.

Pacifica wishes to make clear that we remain committed to anti-fascism, and we remain willing to work with other regions, including Antifa member regions, on anti-fascist operations -- provided the NPO is not involved. Despite the necessity of our withdrawal from Antifa, we wish Antifa member regions and individual participants well, and we hope the best for them in their continued anti-fascist endeavors. While it is unfortunate that recent circumstances have led to a parting of the ways, we don't bear any ill will toward Antifa, its administrators, the leadership of regions involved in Antifa, or anyone participating in an individual capacity. It is our hope moving forward that we will still find opportunities to work together on anti-fascist operations when the NPO is not involved, and that we will be able to work with other regions similarly averse to collaboration with the NPO on anti-fascist operations independently of Antifa as well. It is our sincere wish that our amicable departure from Antifa will not lead to any unnecessary discord between Pacifica and other anti-fascist regions with which we have enjoyed positive relations over the past two months.

This is 100% the wrong move. The fight against fascism, in all its forms, in every corner of the globe and the net, should not ever be compromised by interregional squabbling over ideological matters. There should be enough maturity on Pacifica's part to look past the last six months of NPO rah-rah and focus on actual important matters that go beyond just how to run a region.

I'm disappointed by this action. Overall it just comes off as exceedingly petty and I expect better from the supposed model of Pacifican liberty.

Wycliffe wrote:This is 100% the wrong move. The fight against fascism, in all its forms, in every corner of the globe and the net, should not ever be compromised by interregional squabbling over ideological matters. There should be enough maturity on Pacifica's part to look past the last six months of NPO rah-rah and focus on actual important matters that go beyond just how to run a region.

I'm disappointed by this action. Overall it just comes off as exceedingly petty and I expect better from the supposed model of Pacifican liberty.

At the end of the day, we're here to play a game, not to fight OOC battles. Pacifica is not going to abandon our gameplay positions, rescind our declaration of war against the NPO, and either renegotiate, repeal, or violate a treaty for the sake of anti-fascist operations. We continue to support anti-fascist operations, but it needs to be made clear that such operations are not morally obligatory -- no one is obligated to participate in them because declining to do so somehow makes them fascist sympathizers. Moreover, these operations have no effect on RL fascism. Anti-fascist operations are a way for regions to take a stand against fascism in NationStates. We continue to take that stand, but not in cooperation with the NPO. We will not allow the NPO to wield anti-fascism as an OOC moral weapon to try to get their enemies to make nice with them and let them regain a diplomatic foothold. We won't essentially stop playing the game because the NPO thinks it has found a clever way to make us do that. We just won't. We're not going to be pushed around by the NPO.

The good news is we don't have to. It's still entirely possible to participate in anti-fascist operations without NPO involvement, and we will.

Given the respectful and amicable tone of our withdrawal, I would appreciate the same respect shown toward us, and I'm sure not seeing it in the above post. I personally expect better from Lazarus' ambassador to Pacifica in a public venue, and I will be speaking to your superiors.

Cormactopia Prime wrote:[ugly image snip]

1º In recent days, the New Pacific Order (NPO), the ruling regime of the Pacific, has been invited to participate in anti-fascist operations [Snip, yaddayadda] 2º Following that discussion, it is clear that the NPO will continue to be invited to participate in Antifa operations, making Pacifica's continued membership in Antifa untenable.
[yadda (8)]

I was thinking twice to answer this. But, I can not. It is just, and I quote myself:

"Dumb and childish"

1º NPO was Invited the Friday 15 of March for Major. We miss target, then NPO waited for tonight 16 of March. WOW MANY OPERATIONS!
2º So you not joining a person that has the same thought of you against Fascism, just because.... whatever is pounded in NSGP?

I need you to ask your Lovely Commander or Rep of Pacifica in Antifa, and then tell me how many times we tried to liberate that region. I Personally with Whatermelons pinged all the Thursday. No one show up, we did not get quorum. We pinged again in morning, and no-one, So EXCUSE ME, if I poke to Jo of Lazarus, and Xor of NPO. Excuse me too if tonight I poke Manson of TRR, but I believe and I quote Vipper from Discord:

- There will be no infighting when it comes to Antifa operations or regions with regard to ideological or personal differences. You cannot win a war fighting with your brothers and sisters. What you debate in your own regions/telegrams is of no concern to the collective or its mission.

I do believe that is MORE important the mission of Antifa, that any related things, Rach mention to me,I do not care. If Attero, Alvero or whatever is called now, was marked as Fascist or not, that happen in 2012? is 2019!

Blunt Move Cormacc. We Did this because Thankfully NPO, Lazarus, RRA, and other members that are not inside AntiFa joined the operation, because we could not get the numbers by the own members inside the AntiFa. I did not see any Pacifica Soldier reply the Thursday or Friday morning.


I say that I am open Thankful for these people that joined tonight, I had fun, I enjoyed, and we HIT. WE HIT.

P.S, Was not you in retirement? and stuff?

Khanter, your post is rather unintelligible, if still possibly readable.
It doesn't really help any points you may make if those you are debating against can't really read it.

Edit: I have been informed there may be a language barrier involved. Still, your point(s) are not easily recognizable as being such.

May I remind folks that one of many tidbits of information that came out of the NPO's intelligence kerfuffle was that Pergamon effectively weaponized AntiFash ops in an attempt to elbow orgs like TBH into working with them, and took particular personal offense/held a long term grudge when we maintained our policy of being happy to join antifash ops on the organizational level except those involving defenders (and not barring our members from those, still, FYI, just not participating organizationally).

Also worth noting that, while doing so, he and his cronies were also leveraging their resulting increased closeness with TGW/Libcord to actively spy on them as well.

Antifash operations are important, and always will be, but that's no excuse for participation in them to be weaponized within the confines of this game. No one is bad for not dropping every other standard they have and diving in to smite even the smallest fash op. The Pacific explicitly has a history of using such operations to intentionally improve their international standing and create relationships they can abuse and profit from.

Frankly, especially in the wake of recent action by a monster groomed by the online alt-right, perhaps it's time for admin to consider banning such viewpoints from this site entirely, and make it so that removing fash is as simple as a GHR. But that may be a discussion better suited to a different forum.

Edit: Pacifica, and others, I'm sure you know by now that any time you might wish to engage on an anti-fash operation with pretty much any party besides the NPO or defenders, feel free to reach out to TBH. If it's a major and we get sufficient notice of at least a few days for the best results, we can usually bring 10-15 people at least - and they'll all know how to jump, and none of them will jump late.

Cormactopia Prime wrote:Given the respectful and amicable tone of our withdrawal, I would appreciate the same respect shown toward us, and I'm sure not seeing it in the above post. I personally expect better from Lazarus' ambassador to Pacifica in a public venue, and I will be speaking to your superiors.

Wycliffe resigned as a Lazarene ambassador earlier this afternoon for reasons unrelated to this issue, so he is no longer under any obligation to convey Lazarus's foreign policy to your region. I'm sorry for not communicating this to you before.

I wish Pacifica the best of success on its future operations against fascist forces on NS.

-

As a private individual: I don't think anyone should be shamed for not participating in anti-fascist operations, ever. There are currently 171,276 nations in 23,384 regions on this game. Are you going to say "You're so lame :/" to every nation and region that didn't help you succeed in last night's operation Khanter? I appreciate the cause of Antifa (as part of the Laz Guard I assisted at last night and this night's operation and am currently piling at Antifa's orders) but to call out people for not working with you doesn't seem chill.

So this is just my personal opinion on the issue: The NPO stuff is important. We're talking about an existential threat to our communities, of which the NPO is one, and fascist regions are not. Though they are certainly willing, the fascists of NS are not exactly in a position to take my home of Lazarus, but the NPO is. Yes, fascism is a real-world threat - don't get me wrong - but realistically you aren't going to deplatform them by fighting them in an online game. By all means, we should still fight it, but I personally think in-character politics take a priority over OOC politics in the context of gameplay.

Whatever the case, I will go along with whatever the leadership of the APC and Lazarus decide.

(Relative to the actual merits of fash bash, I think there is an argument to be made that engaging fascism as a serious threat in an online game carries more potential to cause real-world harm than it does for good. Online arguments don't tend to change people's opinions, but they do tend to make people double down on the views they already have.)

Your Imaginary Friend wrote:"You're so lame :/"

D= Quote me, I am reading myself 5 times and I do not find that. (literally reading even in phone).

And not, but I see blunt the statement for just 2 jumps of support. Like, we join AntiFa following one objective.
"The enemy of my Enemy, is my friend" (apart that I do not see as Enemy NPO to be honest, I joined the meme wagon 2 weeks, 3 weeks, then I drop it, I have other interesting or boring stuff to do around this "universe" that hate a region for almost for ever, as you said, is not my style. Hell, I left in 2017 KoGB and Joined Back in November of 2018, that is my longest hate rate towards someone, and also I did not hate them, I just felt uncomfortable with some people.)

Speaking from a purely personal point of view, I have mixed feelings. I can get the sentiment on the one hand, but on the other, beating fascists is also quite important for me. While I think not working with the NPO even on anti-fascist ops is acceptable, withdrawing from Antifa entirely is quite the step. Personally I am more leaning towards attempting to avoid the NPO, and in case they were invited beforehand, reconsider joining in, but staying in Antifa. Ultimately though, it's up to Pacifica.

KhanterWinters wrote:[ugly image snip]

I'm not going to comment on the rest of your post, because I've said what I have to say. Our announcement speaks for itself. It's unfortunate that some individuals involved with Antifa can't respect an amicable withdrawal and have to resort to attacking us, but it is what it is. You do you.

That said, I've highlighted this particular petty insult, because I thought you might like to know that the "ugly image" was made by Imki, the Delegate of Lazarus, for us. She isn't even involved in our region. I think it's a quite nice image, personally, and I don't think you needed to insult her considerable talent with graphic art to make your point. Or if you did, perhaps you're just not very good at making your points. Either way, it was rude and uncalled for.

Armaros wrote:Speaking from a purely personal point of view, I have mixed feelings. I can get the sentiment on the one hand, but on the other, beating fascists is also quite important for me. While I think not working with the NPO even on anti-fascist ops is acceptable, withdrawing from Antifa entirely is quite the step. Personally I am more leaning towards attempting to avoid the NPO, and in case they were invited beforehand, reconsider joining in, but staying in Antifa. Ultimately though, it's up to Pacifica.

We considered taking that approach, but we don't think it's right to remain a member of an organization when we will likely be frequently unable to make any contribution to its operations. Now that the NPO has its hooks into Antifa, I'm sure it will be deploying for its operations more often than not.

Actually, the NPO were invited because we didn't have enough. They probably won't get involved in later operations, the last two updates were mostly emergencies.

That being said, I have no idea what everyone is complaining about. If Pacifica wants to bugger off, they can bugger off. They don't want to participate in an op, they don't have to. Simple.

Cormactopia Prime wrote: I've highlighted this particular petty insult, because I thought you might like to know that the "ugly image" was made by Imki, the Delegate of Lazarus, for us.

Since when State some appreciation or not is insult towards? For me the Meninas of Velazquez is ugly, and Velazquez is an eminence in Art! I HATE 65% of the books of Julio Cortazar, but I do not hate him, he has a period, and is an Eminence in literature. Perhaps my english is not the best, but you are pulling me out of Context.

I do know who is Imki, but thanks for your cordiallity to point it out. I do know that she has Amazing art. Her Designs for Lazarus are amazing. Insult? Nope. At least not to the artist, and before anyone, I just DMed her stating all this to prevent, because I take friendship so important. And as far my concern, I do not want missunderstandings with her. "Ugly image", stated against Pacifica, not against the artist. Yeh I know I am a Jerk. But I am a Jerk with principles, so again Imki if you read this, Not against you, never will be against you.

Is Against the holder, Because I see a pretty redundant argument. And because the little respect I had for the region, little by little I lost it. It must be under my bed. You do you, but I'm not half-hearted. For something in my signature I had to put the disclaimer that my arguments do not represent any of the regions to which I belong.

AND that is not an Insult. either a Petty Insult. I am not in the point to care to give you a Petty Insult even. Is just a BIG dissapointment and frustration. And knowing how this will come, Tomorrow I will have many red-dots on Discord. (Red Dots will need to wait till I wake up)

(edit: typos, is 2 am)

Full support of this.

Don't get me wrong, I'm the last person to want anything to do with the NPO. After the NLO coup I refused to give them any chance on anything. Especially with regards to TRR. Whenever they came up in discussion in TRR, especially concerning diplomatic relations I made it perfectly clear that I didn't even want embassies with them. I knew they couldn't be trusted. I knew that they are a threat to any GCR foolish enough to give them a chance. I only eased up on that opinion like last month and even then I still don't trust them. That didn't stop me from working alongside them at major in the Antifa op. It won't change my opinion of them. I don't have to trust them to fight fascism during update. If you think working alongside them will absolve them of their hostile attitude towards their fellow GCRs then maybe you should be more vocal about your condemnation of the NPO and trust that players will make the right decision.

Scottiesland wrote:Full support of this.

And where were you when we needed support for operations.........?

Great Britain SSR wrote:

Scottiesland wrote:Full support of this.

And where were you when we needed support for operations.........?

Generally? Dealing with RL and not working with a region I am at war with.

The Church of Satan wrote:Don't get me wrong, I'm the last person to want anything to do with the NPO. After the NLO coup I refused to give them any chance on anything. Especially with regards to TRR. Whenever they came up in discussion in TRR, especially concerning diplomatic relations I made it perfectly clear that I didn't even want embassies with them. I knew they couldn't be trusted. I knew that they are a threat to any GCR foolish enough to give them a chance. I only eased up on that opinion like last month and even then I still don't trust them. That didn't stop me from working alongside them at major in the Antifa op. It won't change my opinion of them. I don't have to trust them to fight fascism during update. If you think working alongside them will absolve them of their hostile attitude towards their fellow GCRs then maybe you should be more vocal about your condemnation of the NPO and trust that players will make the right decision.

Pacifica is at war with the New Pacific Order. We don't want to work with them, and we aren't going to work with them. It's as simple as that.

I don't think we can possibly be more vocal in our condemnation of the NPO than we already are, by the way. What an odd thing to say.

Scottiesland wrote:

Great Britain SSR wrote:And where were you when we needed support for operations.........?

Generally? Dealing with RL and not working with a region I am at war with.

Not a peek was heard from you about this issue.

Great Britain SSR wrote:

Scottiesland wrote:Generally? Dealing with RL and not working with a region I am at war with.

Not a peek was heard from you about this issue.

Consider for a moment that perhaps a peep was heard from him in places you can't see, like leadership chats or DMs.

What? I'm a leader of Antifa and can view the leadership channels, he didn't even post anything.

Clarification: Honeydewistania here.

Great Britain SSR wrote:What? I'm a leader of Antifa and can view the leadership channels, he didn't even post anything.

Clarification: Honeydewistania here.

Consider for a moment that perhaps a peep was heard from him in places you can't see, like leadership chats or DMs.

Cormactopia Prime wrote:

Great Britain SSR wrote:What? I'm a leader of Antifa and can view the leadership channels, he didn't even post anything.

Clarification: Honeydewistania here.

Consider for a moment that perhaps a peep was heard from him in places you can't see, like leadership chats or DMs.

I'm sure if he DMed someone they would had let hsi opinion be heard, or else there was no point in having that opinion.

Great Britain SSR wrote:

Scottiesland wrote:Full support of this.

And where were you when we needed support for operations.........?

Maybe he was off making furry regions his #1 priority.. On that note, pardon me if I don't view someone who suggests folks specifically target a generally non-objectionable minority they personally appear to see as deviant, as someone folks must feel obligated to seek moral approval from before making their military decisions.

Or maybe he didn't feel it was necessary to project his views to the whole world for them to have merit in the realm of inter-regional diplomacy.