Imperial Statement from the New Pacific Order

[Cormactopia Prime]

Yeah, honest question about this part. If the NPO is well established in the Pacific (based on endorsements it doesn't seem they're going anywhere) and spans multiple sites, how exactly does one smash the NPO? It seems like even if you temporarily removed them from power in the Pacific, that doesn't do anything to stop them in any other strongholds, nor prevent them from coming back to the Pacific or another region.

You can't. Cormac Quixote can bash against the windmill as much as he wishes.

Also, it isn't extortionist at all, it is simple cause and effect, and has been proven true in this realm and others throughout history. The subjugation of a people to constant outside threat allows the more extreme internal elements the opportunity to spread fear.

The point you don't seem to be grasping is that even during peacetime, even while other GCRs were giving the NPO another chance, those same extreme elements were doing just fine with getting people involved in their subversive schemes against other GCRs. You're telling us if we don't forgive and forget now, that will happen again. I'm telling you there's absolutely no reason for us to believe it won't happen again regardless. At least this way, we're standing up for our regions' sovereignty and making clear we aren't going to accept this from the NPO anymore. At least this way, we don't come out the other side looking ridiculous for trusting the NPO again. At least this way, we keep the pressure on and take the fight to the NPO, instead of waiting for the NPO to bring the fight to us yet again -- for what would now be at least the third time in recent years.

I don't know what to tell you. Maybe you should have done a better job of purging the subversive elements when Krulltopia handed you the reins -- if you were ever even serious about that. But they came back, and no one can trust that they won't just come back again and again after things have calmed down and the NPO thinks it's safe to bring them back. We are where we are now, and there is nothing unreasonable about these regions refusing to accept the NPO's nonsense yet again, and finally acknowledging that a state of war exists. The NPO has been in an undeclared state of war with these regions for years now. All that's happening here is that these regions are recognizing that undeclared war for what it is and reciprocating. Stop acting like we're driving the NPO to the extremes, when the NPO has literally never stopped being at the extremes. Stop playing the victim. It's beneath you.

[Pierconium]

You can't. Cormac Quixote can bash against the windmill as much as he wishes.

Also, it isn't extortionist at all, it is simple cause and effect, and has been proven true in this realm and others throughout history. The subjugation of a people to constant outside threat allows the more extreme internal elements the opportunity to spread fear.

The point you don't seem to be grasping is that even during peacetime, even while other GCRs were giving the NPO another chance, those same extreme elements were doing just fine with getting people involved in their subversive schemes against other GCRs. You're telling us if we don't forgive and forget now, that will happen again. I'm telling you there's absolutely no reason for us to believe it won't happen again regardless. At least this way, we're standing up for our regions' sovereignty and making clear we aren't going to accept this from the NPO anymore. At least this way, we don't come out the other side looking ridiculous for trusting the NPO again. At least this way, we keep the pressure on and take the fight to the NPO, instead of waiting for the NPO to bring the fight to us yet again -- for what would now be the fourth time in recent years.

I don't know what to tell you. Maybe you should have done a better job about purging the subversive elements when Krulltopia handed you the reins. If you were ever even serious about that. But we are where we are now, and there is nothing unreasonable about these regions refusing to accept the NPO's nonsense yet again, and finally acknowledging that a state of war exists. The NPO has been in an undeclared state of war with these regions for years now. All that's happening here is that these regions are recognizing that undeclared war and reciprocating. Stop acting like we're driving the NPO to the extremes, when the NPO has literally never stopped being at the extremes. Stop playing the victim. It's beneath you.

Oh, I'm not playing the victim. I don't care if you 'declare war' on the Pacific. I find it laughable, because you are just Cormac Quixote fighting the windmill. You can't win. Regardless of the mentality of the NPO, regardless of the purges, regardless of whether the new leadership makes a dozen changes and becomes the nice guys of NS, you still wouldn't be in any better position as regards the Pacific than you are at present, because you can't win. You can't defeat the NPO. It isn't hubris, it is mathematics.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Oh, I'm not playing the victim. I don't care if you 'declare war' on the Pacific. I find it laughable, because you are just Cormac Quixote fighting the windmill. You can't win. Regardless of the mentality of the NPO, regardless of the purges, regardless of whether the new leadership makes a dozen changes and becomes the nice guys of NS, you still wouldn't be in any better position as regards the Pacific than you are at present, because you can't win. You can't defeat the NPO. It isn't hubris, it is mathematics.

I mean, I'm not declaring war against the NPO. Multiple regions, many of which I'm not even involved in, are declaring war against the NPO.

As to whether the Coalition can win -- we'll see, won't we? At least they're finally standing up for themselves and against the NPO's aggression.

[Pierconium]

Oh, I'm not playing the victim. I don't care if you 'declare war' on the Pacific. I find it laughable, because you are just Cormac Quixote fighting the windmill. You can't win. Regardless of the mentality of the NPO, regardless of the purges, regardless of whether the new leadership makes a dozen changes and becomes the nice guys of NS, you still wouldn't be in any better position as regards the Pacific than you are at present, because you can't win. You can't defeat the NPO. It isn't hubris, it is mathematics.

I mean, I'm not declaring war against the NPO. Multiple regions, many of which I'm not even involved in, are declaring war against the NPO.

As to whether the Coalition can win -- we'll see, won't we? At least they're finally standing up for themselves and against the NPO's aggression.

It isn't the first time a 'coalition' (is that the name it is going with? disappointing) has declared war on the Pacific.

[Cormactopia Prime]

I mean, I'm not declaring war against the NPO. Multiple regions, many of which I'm not even involved in, are declaring war against the NPO.

As to whether the Coalition can win -- we'll see, won't we? At least they're finally standing up for themselves and against the NPO's aggression.

It isn't the first time a 'coalition' (is that the name it is going with? disappointing) has declared war on the Pacific.

What's past is prologue, not epilogue. The NPO is not invincible, because there is no such thing as an invincible regime in this game.

I like your overconfidence though. Please retain it.

[Solorni]

As to the rest, as I have stated elsewhere, if the wider community pushes the Pacific into a siege mentality (justified or not)

Out of curiosity, do you believe it is justified?

[Pierconium]

As to the rest, as I have stated elsewhere, if the wider community pushes the Pacific into a siege mentality (justified or not)

Out of curiosity, do you believe it is justified?

Oh certainly. I was royally pissed when I logged on yesterday and saw that the Pacifican Senate had not only allowed questionable elements back into their ranks but had allowed them to undertake the same stupid crap in the same regions that caused me so much headache last time around. I am not one for diplomacy so the last efforts were actually quite a significant gameplay achievement for me personally (the repeal of the last Condemnation) and that has effectively been undone because of complacency and isolationism (and fooling around with stupid stupid defenderism).

So yeah, completely and utterly justified that people are pissed at the NPO. I'm pissed at the NPO.

[Unibot III]

Out of curiosity, do you believe it is justified?

Oh certainly. I was royally pissed when I logged on yesterday and saw that the Pacifican Senate had not only allowed questionable elements back into their ranks but had allowed them to undertake the same stupid crap in the same regions that caused me so much headache last time around. I am not one for diplomacy so the last efforts were actually quite a significant gameplay achievement for me personally (the repeal of the last Condemnation) and that has effectively been undone because of complacency and isolationism (and fooling around with stupid stupid defenderism).

So yeah, completely and utterly justified that people are pissed at the NPO. I'm pissed at the NPO.

I’m just a “stupid, stupid defender,” but I have to wonder how your occupation of the North Pacific or your, err work in the East Pacific differs materially from “the same stupid crap” you’ve attributed to these “questionable elements.” I mean, you were more successful and purged more nations than Feux. But I don’t think that’s a metric of integrity widely shared here.

I’m sort of impressed that the NPO’s fallback PR guy at this point is a self-identified retired “tyrant” according to his own forum signature, with more bans to his name than Genghis Khan.

[Pierconium]

Oh certainly. I was royally pissed when I logged on yesterday and saw that the Pacifican Senate had not only allowed questionable elements back into their ranks but had allowed them to undertake the same stupid crap in the same regions that caused me so much headache last time around. I am not one for diplomacy so the last efforts were actually quite a significant gameplay achievement for me personally (the repeal of the last Condemnation) and that has effectively been undone because of complacency and isolationism (and fooling around with stupid stupid defenderism).

So yeah, completely and utterly justified that people are pissed at the NPO. I'm pissed at the NPO.

I’m just a “stupid, stupid defender,” but I have to wonder how your occupation of the North Pacific differs materially from “the same stupid crap” you’ve attributed to these “questionable elements.” I mean, you were more successful and purged more nations than Feux. But I don’t think that’s a metric of integrity widely shared here.

You mean something that happened over a decade ago in a region where I have spent a not inconsiderable amount of time as a contributing member of their community for years since? I'm just making sure I know which incident you are referring to here.

And I did not state that defenders are stupid, just that the idea of defenderism with its moral implications are stupid within the context of GCR politics. Who cares if the userites fight amongst themselves?

Edit to respond to your edit: I don't speak for anyone officially. But, I am a known quantity and people know I mean what I say and I speak plainly and directly. Most of my most ardent enemies historically at least respect me because of the consistency in my style. So, yes, I am a retired 'Tyrant' in every sense of the term. I know what it is like to hold power, what it is like to lose power, and what it is like to crave power. And I know the damage each of those can do to a community and a nation in turn over time. I've seen it all, more than once, and am here to simply comment on how I see the current state of affairs unfolding.

[Unibot III]

I’m just a “stupid, stupid defender,” but I have to wonder how your occupation of the North Pacific differs materially from “the same stupid crap” you’ve attributed to these “questionable elements.” I mean, you were more successful and purged more nations than Feux. But I don’t think that’s a metric of integrity widely shared here.

You mean something that happened over a decade ago in a region where I have spent a not inconsiderable amount of time as a contributing member of their community for years since? I'm just making sure I know which incident you are referring to here.

And I did not state that defenders are stupid, just that the idea of defenderism with its moral implications are stupid within the context of GCR politics. Who cares if the userites fight amongst themselves?

Edit to respond to your edit: I don't speak for anyone officially. But, I am a known quantity and people know I mean what I say and I speak plainly and directly. Most of my most ardent enemies historically at least respect me because of the consistency in my style. So, yes, I am a retired 'Tyrant' in every sense of the term. I know what it is like to hold power, what it is like to lose power, and what it is like to crave power. And I know the damage each of those can do to a community and a nation in turn over time. I've seen it all, more than once, and am here to simply comment on how I see the current state of affairs unfolding.

I see, well, I hope you can forgive my confusion. What I saw was the person who perfected oppression, lamenting similar aggressive activity in his unofficial capacity as a spokesperson for an authoritarian regime ... that only exists because of an ancient coup d'état pursued by an anonymous account. Even for NationStates, that's pretty brain-baffling.

I mean, if you're not successful in convincing Gameplay that the NPO is serious about disavowing its aggressive expansionism, I reckon they'll send Darth Vader next.

I'm also confused what you believe in now, if not international anarchy and the rule of might, power, and influence? What about Feux, AMOM, Pergamon, Svezjacae's behaviour et al. do you find questionable? That they showed no respect for regional sovereignty and internal democracy - or that they got caught?

[Pierconium]

You mean something that happened over a decade ago in a region where I have spent a not inconsiderable amount of time as a contributing member of their community for years since? I'm just making sure I know which incident you are referring to here.

And I did not state that defenders are stupid, just that the idea of defenderism with its moral implications are stupid within the context of GCR politics. Who cares if the userites fight amongst themselves?

Edit to respond to your edit: I don't speak for anyone officially. But, I am a known quantity and people know I mean what I say and I speak plainly and directly. Most of my most ardent enemies historically at least respect me because of the consistency in my style. So, yes, I am a retired 'Tyrant' in every sense of the term. I know what it is like to hold power, what it is like to lose power, and what it is like to crave power. And I know the damage each of those can do to a community and a nation in turn over time. I've seen it all, more than once, and am here to simply comment on how I see the current state of affairs unfolding.

I see, well, I hope you can forgive my confusion. What I saw was the person who perfected oppression, lamenting similar aggressive activity in his unofficial capacity as a spokesperson for an authoritarian regime ... that only exists because of an ancient coup d'état pursued by an anonymous account. Even for NationStates, that's pretty brain-baffling.

I mean, if you're not successful in convincing Gameplay that the NPO is serious about disavowing its aggressive expansionism, I reckon they'll send Darth Vader next.

I'm also confused what you believe in now, if not international anarchy and the rule of might, power, and influence? What about Feux, AMOM, Pergamon, Svezjacae's behaviour et al. do you find questionable? That they showed no respect for regional sovereignty and internal democracy - or that they got caught?

GCRs are each responsible for their own internal structure and security. I find it unfortunate that the nations you mention felt the need to infiltrate other sovereign regions in secret in order to undertake their activities. Which is markedly different than anything you might attribute to me, now or in the far distant past. While my initial takeover of Pixiedance was held loosely in secret (for a day or two - although many knew) I was an active member of government publicly in the region prior to that event and after. I never relied on subterfuge to undertake my activities. While I have been a party to any number of nefarious actions, many of which I chose to play under the presumption of duality (which I know is not an acceptable means of gameplay in the current climate so will not belabor the point), I have always been upfront and direct in my actions. If I took over a region it was boldly and if I stabbed an opponent it was while I looked them in the eyes and smiled.

So I have a number of objections to the activities that these nations undertook.

As to respect for internal democracy, if a GCR wishes to set up its own government as an oligarchy (which is as close as a GCR gets realistically in my opinion) I have no problem with that and have operated within the confines of such structures for a very long time. If that is the structure the community desires, then the Pacific should respect that.

[Pierconium]

I guess I should say that what I valued as 'fun' in Gameplay 13-16 years ago is markedly different than what I view as fun today. While I have spent 16 years building a certain persona, and will always maintain certain political views as regards the sovereignty of the GCRs, the rights of the sitting Delegate, etc. my views on what is acceptable behavior while in a position of authority over a community has changed significantly over the last decade plus.

[Unibot III]

I see, well, I hope you can forgive my confusion. What I saw was the person who perfected oppression, lamenting similar aggressive activity in his unofficial capacity as a spokesperson for an authoritarian regime ... that only exists because of an ancient coup d'état pursued by an anonymous account. Even for NationStates, that's pretty brain-baffling.

I mean, if you're not successful in convincing Gameplay that the NPO is serious about disavowing its aggressive expansionism, I reckon they'll send Darth Vader next.

I'm also confused what you believe in now, if not international anarchy and the rule of might, power, and influence? What about Feux, AMOM, Pergamon, Svezjacae's behaviour et al. do you find questionable? That they showed no respect for regional sovereignty and internal democracy - or that they got caught?

GCRs are each responsible for their own internal structure and security. I find it unfortunate that the nations you mention felt the need to infiltrate other sovereign regions in secret in order to undertake their activities. Which is markedly different than anything you might attribute to me, now or in the far distant past. While my initial takeover of Pixiedance was held loosely in secret (for a day or two - although many knew) I was an active member of government publicly in the region prior to that event and after. I never relied on subterfuge to undertake my activities. While I have been a party to any number of nefarious actions, many of which I chose to play under the presumption of duality (which I know is not an acceptable means of gameplay in the current climate so will not belabor the point), I have always been upfront and direct in my actions. If I took over a region it was boldly and if I stabbed an opponent it was while I looked them in the eyes and smiled.

So I have a number of objections to the activities that these nations undertook.

As to respect for internal democracy, if a GCR wishes to set up its own government as an oligarchy (which is as close as a GCR gets realistically in my opinion) I have no problem with that and have operated within the confines of such structures for a very long time. If that is the structure the community desires, then the Pacific should respect that.

Right, so if a GCR wishes to set up its own government as a liberal democracy, that's a demonstration of weakness to be exploited by force if necessary.

I've got a theory here - and if it's true feel free to blink it in morse code while venomously denying. I do think there's a long-standing divide between you and some other former senators who you've alluded to here as 'questionable,' but you don't disagree over the overriding goal of expansionism or the means thereof - I believe you disagree with them on the politics of it. You're an old school man: to you, the NPO works with invaders on a contractual basis and derides its old enemies, defenders, as hypocrites (either naive or corrupt). Whereas, many of your contemporaries believe that invaders and imperialists have since amassed significant empires of their own among the game-created regions, hollowing out the existing regional governments for their own purposes - and therefore as modern 'partners of convenience,' invaders are of negligible assistance and leave little room for further expansionism. These senators have, in the absence of other options, advocated instead for the NPO to manipulate defenders, new suckers, to service the political disruption they need to gain additional powers and privileges, especially in Lazarus. And the thing that's vexed you the most about this change of direction, really isn't the naked expansionism or the cruel means of subjugation, but rather what you consider a debasing of the New Pacific Order's name and legacy in its cooperation (how ever malicious and ill-willed it is in reality) with defenders.

And this latest war between invaders and the NPO - and the bad press - just serves as evidence, as far you are concerned, to your prior conviction that said senators were badly mistaken.

[KhanterWinters]

Can I do a slight request in Regarding of all this with GP Vs NPO?

What about to make a Truce for this holidays. I do know that y'all are very excited to be in War games, like a child when gets his christmas gift, and I know that y'all are tired of NPO lying, and playing with different morals that others but advent just started, is not like GP and y'all will forgot this so fast, because I am sure that there will be someone trying to make a fake account on discord and annoy NPO, saying that goes in behalf of some random UCR, and viceversa that same guy will make tons of accounts of discord to annoy another UCR saying that is an spy of NPO. and people will react against ones vs others... So topic will not be buried...

I just ask a Truce, and then the 2 of January you can still IC hate ones each others as Usual.

[Pierconium]

Right, so if a GCR wishes to set up its own government as a liberal democracy, that's a demonstration of weakness to be exploited by force if necessary.

I've got a theory here - and if it's true feel free to blink it in morse code while venomously denying. I do think there's a long-standing divide between you and some other former senators who you've alluded to here as 'questionable,' but you don't disagree over the overriding goal of expansionism or the means thereof - I believe you disagree with them on the politics of it. You're an old school man: to you, the NPO works with invaders on a contractual basis and derides its old enemies, defenders, as hypocrites (either naive or corrupt). Whereas, many of your contemporaries believe that invaders and imperialists have since amassed significant empires of their own among the game-created regions, hollowing out the existing regional governments for their purposes - and therefore as modern 'partners of convenience,' invaders are of negligible assistance and leave little room for further expansionism. These senators have, in the absence of other options, advocated instead for the NPO to manipulate defenders, new suckers, to service the political disruption they need to gain additional powers and privileges, especially in Lazarus. And the thing that's vexed you the most about this change of direction, really isn't the naked expansionism or the cruel means of subjugation, but rather what you consider a debasing of the New Pacific Order's name and legacy in its cooperation (how ever malicious and ill-willed it is in reality) with defenders.

And this latest war between invaders and the NPO - and the bad press - just serves as evidence, as far you are concerned, to your prior conviction that said senators were badly mistaken.

This made me smile.

No. You are incorrect. (I wonder how many times over the years I have said that to you. Not a small number I'm sure.)

To be clear, since my previous comment was not evidently clear enough for you, I do not support any aggressive expansion or imperialism by the Pacific into the other GCRs. I have in the past actively taken part in such campaigns but have decided over the last 11-13 years that most such actions are more trouble than they are worth. If the other GCRs wish to sully themselves with inferior forms of government (and I am allowed to have my own opinion on that regardless of what you or anyone else thinks) that is their choice and right. The NPO should not be taking any action, secret or otherwise, to thwart or impact those regional governments.

That said, I do think the Pacific choosing to align itself with defenderism was a mistake because I think the entire concept of 'defender' morality is a misplaced and hypocritical mentality that unnecessarily confuses IC and OOC to a level that is unneeded in a political simulation environment. So, the Pacific choosing to alienate groups like The Black Hawks was a mistake in my opinion, but not for the exact reasons you surmise.

[2SDOATS]

That said, I do think the Pacific choosing to align itself with defenderism was a mistake because I think the entire concept of 'defender' morality is a misplaced and hypocritical mentality that unnecessarily confuses IC and OOC to a level that is unneeded in a political simulation environment. So, the Pacific choosing to alienate groups like The Black Hawks was a mistake in my opinion, but not for the exact reasons you surmise.

This is why toads left the NPO. I said it then and I echo Ivan now.

It was the downfall, I predicted would come and it has.

[Pierconium]

That said, I do think the Pacific choosing to align itself with defenderism was a mistake because I think the entire concept of 'defender' morality is a misplaced and hypocritical mentality that unnecessarily confuses IC and OOC to a level that is unneeded in a political simulation environment. So, the Pacific choosing to alienate groups like The Black Hawks was a mistake in my opinion, but not for the exact reasons you surmise.

This is why toads left the NPO. I said it then and I echo Ivan now.

It was the downfall, I predicted would come and it has.

This is why you were the Pacifican Jedi Master.

[Unibot III]

This made me smile.

I aim to please!

To be clear, since my previous comment was not evidently clear enough for you, I do not support any aggressive expansion or imperialism by the Pacific into the other GCRs. I have in the past actively taken part in such campaigns but have decided over the last 11-13 years that most such actions are more trouble than they are worth.

[...] The NPO should not be taking any action, secret or otherwise, to thwart or impact those regional governments.

Very interesting. (But you're sure they're not starving you, right? Are they keeping your cat hostage? Just blink out 'SOS' - we're all here for you.)

So when Francos Spain set out to invade and seize the Pacific, all those years ago, was he doing something wrong or has the New Pacific Order simply proven more trouble than it's worth...? Asking for friend.

That said, I do think the Pacific choosing to align itself with defenderism was a mistake because I think the entire concept of 'defender' morality is a misplaced and hypocritical mentality that unnecessarily confuses IC and OOC to a level that is unneeded in a political simulation environment. So, the Pacific choosing to alienate groups like The Black Hawks was a mistake in my opinion, but not for the exact reasons you surmise.

Speaking as a bit of a "doctrinaire" myself: I don't think they were 'aligning' with defenderism much when they were busy taking a royal dump on Lazarus.

[Crazy girl]

I heard something was going on, I'll have to skim through some threads later. Hello, Ivan.

[Lord Dominator]

So, the Pacific choosing to alienate groups like The Black Hawks was a mistake in my opinion, but not for the exact reasons you surmise.

Nice to know you care

[Pierconium]

So when Francos Spain set out to invade and seize the Pacific, all those years ago, was he doing something wrong or has the New Pacific Order simply proven more trouble than it's worth...? Asking for friend.

Francos Spain didn't seize anything. The Pacific was a chaotic mashup ran by a few oligarchs that just passed the Delegacy around between themselves. There was no government, no bureaucracy, and outside of a very small handful of nations that created it as a result of being displaced, no community.

[Pierconium]

I heard something was going on, I'll have to skim through some threads later. Hello, Ivan.

Hi, CG.

[Lord Dominator]

So when Francos Spain set out to invade and seize the Pacific, all those years ago, was he doing something wrong or has the New Pacific Order simply proven more trouble than it's worth...? Asking for friend.

Francos Spain didn't seize anything. The Pacific was a chaotic mashup ran by a few oligarchs that just passed the Delegacy around between themselves. There was no government, no bureaucracy, and outside of a very small handful of nations that created it as a result of being displaced, no community.

Sounds about the same as every other region back then, by my knowledge of history

[2SDOATS]

Francos Spain didn't seize anything. The Pacific was a chaotic mashup ran by a few oligarchs that just passed the Delegacy around between themselves. There was no government, no bureaucracy, and outside of a very small handful of nations that created it as a result of being displaced, no community.

Sounds about the same as every other region back then, by my knowledge of history

It was a glorious time in NS history... The early beginnings of fun.

[Unibot III]

So when Francos Spain set out to invade and seize the Pacific, all those years ago, was he doing something wrong or has the New Pacific Order simply proven more trouble than it's worth...? Asking for friend.

Francos Spain didn't seize anything. The Pacific was a chaotic mashup ran by a few oligarchs that just passed the Delegacy around between themselves. There was no government, no bureaucracy, and outside of a very small handful of nations that created it as a result of being displaced, no community.

I suspected you might say that, and it isn't true: part lie, part misleading contextualization.

But let's say it is true. If it is acceptable to take advantage of power vacuums, chaotic mashups - what makes Feux's kratocracy so bad in Lazarus? Was he not (thrice) trying to bring order (rather self-servingly) to a declining state and order of things? It seems to me that what you're taking dispute with is an individual's ambition tantamount fundamentally with the founding ethos of the Order itself.

The New Pacific Order is a junta whose eponymous mission is to imperialise the Pacifics. You, however, would have us believe it's a knitting club for roleplayers and retirees. It began as a coup. Expansionism is its reason for existence, its past, its present, and its future indefinitely. Everything else, this claptrap about regional rights, is simply for show.