Imperial Statement from the New Pacific Order

[Imperium of Josh]

Hear hear Souls!

The NPO, even if it fulfils every demand we or anyone else make(s), cannot be trusted to remain true to their word. Should they wish to in future, they'll easily be able to reinstate the wrongdoers, quietly and without fanfare from the rest of GP, at any opportune moment where we are distracted. While it may be true that regions involved in the war may have their demands "met," I feel it is necessary to, at the very least, watch NPO like a hawk and resume war the moment its position budges an inch from the demands, if not simply continuing the war outright.

The NPO will remain a major and singular threat to all regions, at all times. It is its condition of existence, so inherent is this flaw that only a complete overhaul of the Pacific's government and playerbase will suffice in rooting it out.

And thus, for the safety of GCRs and UCRs alike: NPO delenda est.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Nothing the NPO says it will do can be trusted. Bans can be reversed. Those removed from office can be reinstated. We've seen it all before.

Every region wronged by the NPO should go to war, and should accept nothing less than the unconditional surrender of the NPO as the sole path to peace.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Frankly, it has been silly of other orgs to make demands which, bar a few, can be easily lip-serviced, and which nearly universally can be sneakily avoided. No one should trust The Pacific producing results until, at the least, years have gone by. They've discredited, entirely, the name of their action and promises by making dishonest formal statements prior (i.e. Ivan's "we knew nothing about Perg and crew in Laz") and accepting everyone they've removed again sooner or later. While one might argue that new people are in charge now, those that are new have still defended the party line, per se, lying further about intents and actions.

Even in the statement made to Lazarus already, lies.

The first point to address is the Lazarus Task Force. This was an operation intended to counter what the Order saw as votestacking by Funkadelia in favor of Lone Wolves United. The intent was to bait Funkadelia into making this evident, so that it could be used against him.

The actions here were a violation of Lazarus’ regional sovereignty and a betrayal of Lazarus as a fellow Game Created Region. That the intent was to counter influence from Lone Wolves United is no more an excuse for that violation than was the attempt to remove the Founderless Regions Alliance from Lazarus in 2015.

While there's indicator that "oh no lwu could get laz" is a factor in their involvement for sure, this ignores all the other meddling/attempting to bait reactions there, as well as most vitally, as recently quoted:

Pergamon: But I didn't sign up the NPO for the advancement of Invaderdom, but the Advancement of the Order.
Pergamon: I see it as possibility to get Lazarus back while being considered heroes.
Ark: That's the idea.
Pergamon: The relevant natives drink NPO coolaid already.

...among several other quotes that make clear that this was no misguided attempt to protect Lazarus or even just to ensure a "feederite" got into power, but rather a blatant power grab by the NPO, for the NPO.

The NPO makes an attempt at apology, while denying the intent stated on record. They're trying to sell "we did the wrong thing in good faith" rather than "we tried to nab it while we could, again." Excuses and misdirection, even while apologizing. There are other items like this in their "apologies."

I sincerely hope that people have learned from the last time someone stepped in to clean up, and will not be so easily fooled. Take my word from it, as someone who received promises from Ivan as "cleanup crew," Karenus in an FA role, and Ale as Emperor - those promises are to get you off their back, and have no bearing on the reality of their intent for future action.

[Onder Kelkia]

Balder consciously decided not to include any demands in our statement because we have no faith in the NPO's capacity to reform. We received an apology from the NPO three years earlier, only for NPO to change course as soon as the diplomatic winds shifted and for the same pattern of conduct to resume.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Would the New Pacific Order care to comment on Emperor Hopeychangey having been an endorsee in the New Lazarene Order coup?

No wonder Milograd was so excited you were going to be Emperor. What a joke.

[Glen-Rhodes]

It's arguably not even the biggest infiltration of Osiris. Liz Lemons (Jakker) was pretty wild, no? I didn't see any ramifications of that come from the Black Hawks.

Well, just for starters, that saga concluded more than five years ago. You may be right that there weren't sufficient consequences, but that's in the past.

Okay, so now the goalposts are moving somewhere at least. We've gone from "infiltration deserves universal bans and guilt by association for anyone who doesn't fight against NPO" to "only recent infiltration matters."

Osiris was a bit too busy to impose any consequences on The Black Hawks, and by the time the dust settled, Osiris was a radically different region than it had been at the time The Black Hawks infiltrated it. So comparing that situation to this one is really just not a useful comparison when you look at the full context of that incident.

Further narrowing the outrage quotient here. "Only recent infiltration matters, and bans are only warranted if other regions aren't 'too busy' to call for them."

Mad Jack is also correct that the Adytus/Wrektopia/Kowassati/Weast Jurmany infiltration was much bigger than the Lemon Love infiltration.

"Only recent infiltration matters, and bans are only warranted if the other regions aren't 'too busy', and the infiltration meets some size requirement that's not defined."

Regardless of how common infiltrations are -- and I don't think they're at all common anymore -- I'm not sure how anyone expected the wronged parties to respond. "Aw, well, these things happen"? "We didn't punish TBH five years ago, so better not do anything now either"? I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that infiltrations like this weren't handled with appropriate gravity in the past, but how that argument is then turned into "...so they shouldn't be handled with appropriate gravity now either" is the part I'm not getting. If anyone is looking for me to say past infiltrations should have been taken more seriously, fine, I'll say it: Past infiltrations should have been taken more seriously. That's not going to persuade me to then say "since they weren't, we're not going to take this one seriously either." I'm not going to abide by 2013 standards, five years later. I would prefer to set new standards for 2018.

Like the standards of... Cormac? Or are we also excluding "infiltration threatened by the righteous Cormac"? Quite the shift in opinion from Aug 2017, even for Cormac.

Look, literally nobody is saying NPO's infiltration should go unpunished. Some of us just don't think your histrionics are useful, particularly in how hypocritical they are. You live in the most fragile of glass houses, as does Souls. Maybe find a different messenger. Some of the regions affected by this and cutting ties aren't being nearly as dramatic as you are. Though I suppose you think that's the problem.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Well, just for starters, that saga concluded more than five years ago. You may be right that there weren't sufficient consequences, but that's in the past.

Okay, so now the goalposts are moving somewhere at least. We've gone from "infiltration deserves universal bans and guilt by association for anyone who doesn't fight against NPO" to "only recent infiltration matters."

I can't go back in time and make anyone respond differently to infiltrations that took place five years ago, Glen. You're being ridiculous, as usual.

Regardless of how common infiltrations are -- and I don't think they're at all common anymore -- I'm not sure how anyone expected the wronged parties to respond. "Aw, well, these things happen"? "We didn't punish TBH five years ago, so better not do anything now either"? I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that infiltrations like this weren't handled with appropriate gravity in the past, but how that argument is then turned into "...so they shouldn't be handled with appropriate gravity now either" is the part I'm not getting. If anyone is looking for me to say past infiltrations should have been taken more seriously, fine, I'll say it: Past infiltrations should have been taken more seriously. That's not going to persuade me to then say "since they weren't, we're not going to take this one seriously either." I'm not going to abide by 2013 standards, five years later. I would prefer to set new standards for 2018.

Like the standards of... Cormac? Or are we also excluding "infiltration threatened by the righteous Cormac"? Quite the shift in opinion from Aug 2017, even for Cormac.

Yes, you convicted me of "treason" for spouting off and saying I was going to infiltrate the South Pacific, even though I never actually did infiltrate TSP and you had absolutely no proof I infiltrated TSP (because I hadn't). Congratulations. For what it's worth, I'm sorry I lost my temper and threatened to infiltrate TSP, but to even try to put that on par with what the NPO has actually done is just ridiculous, and you know it.

Look, literally nobody is saying NPO's infiltration should go unpunished. Some of us just don't think your histrionics are useful, particularly in how hypocritical they are. You live in the most fragile of glass houses, as does Souls. Maybe find a different messenger. Some of the regions affected by this and cutting ties aren't being nearly as dramatic as you are. Though I suppose you think that's the problem.

It's funny, you say no one is saying the NPO's infiltration should go unpunished, but the only thing you don't want to talk about right now is the NPO's infiltration. You want to go on rants about this whataboutism and that whataboutism, anything to deflect attention from what the NPO has done. I just posted a screen shot showing that Emperor Hopeychangey, who is supposedly going to usher in a new NPO that is going to respect our regions' sovereignty, was an endorsee in the NLO coup -- something the NPO never bothered to disclose when he was announced and we were told he was the respectable alternative to Aleisyr and Pergamon. But rather than talking about that, you post a wall of text talking about stuff from five years ago, and me spouting off and saying stupid stuff, trying anything you can to distract from the real issue here, which is the NPO and its acts of aggression.

Buzz off, Glen. Nobody is falling for your whataboutisms and repeated attempts to deflect and divert attention away from the NPO's wrongdoing.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

You live in the most fragile of glass houses, as does Souls.

Given TSP's tendency to react very strongly to the slightest whisper of a threat, I'd think you'd be a little more appreciative of the patience of a region that maintained diplomacy through multiple active infiltrations, conflicts, and acts of espionage before taking substantive action, and especially of their ultimate annoyance once when said patience ran out.

Again, we like to make our enemies quite clear, and don't go around treating our friends like enemies. There's a pretty big difference in play here, and ignoring it to act like what the NPO has done is normal doesn't behoove you at all.

[Neo Domais]

If I am correct the NPO declared war on TBH, all this stuff is coming out latter.

[Milozoldyck]

Would the New Pacific Order care to comment on Emperor Hopeychangey having been an endorsee in the New Lazarene Order coup?

(Image)

No wonder Milograd was so excited you were going to be Emperor. What a joke.

For what it's worth, I genuinely didn't know this.

I'll let LoD or a qualified representative from The Pacific clarify further, should they wish to.

[Sunmi]

Would the New Pacific Order care to comment on Emperor Hopeychangey having been an endorsee in the New Lazarene Order coup?

(Image)

No wonder Milograd was so excited you were going to be Emperor. What a joke.

He wasn't really involved. The nation was created solely for the op, so someone must have asked him. He was not a sitting senator at the time, nor was he high gov anywhere. A nation he made temporarily three years ago with little involvement doesn't really make him a plotter. He had less than 10 posts from the date of his account creation of NS NPO forums in 2013 to 2016.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Would the New Pacific Order care to comment on Emperor Hopeychangey having been an endorsee in the New Lazarene Order coup?

(Image)

No wonder Milograd was so excited you were going to be Emperor. What a joke.

He wasn't really involved. The nation was created solely for the op, so someone must have asked him. He was not a sitting senator at the time, nor was he high gov anywhere. A nation he made temporarily three years ago with little involvement doesn't really make him a plotter. He had less than 10 posts from the date of his account creation of NS NPO forums in 2013 to 2016.

First: Who are you?

Secondly, I'm going to have to call nonsense on "he wasn't really involved" when he was listed on the NLO WFE as someone to endorse. Come on now.

[Ramaeus]

I like the NPO.

[Ungvarnfjall]

NPO DELENDA EST! Down with the Pacificans and their false order!

Fr though, the plot is thickening for the NPO and I really can't wait to watch it's rise-and-fall lifetime go through. It's kinda crazy, though, to see an organization affect the actual NSverse so much.

[Galiantus III]

NPO DELENDA EST! Down with the Pacificans and their false order!

I just need to point out that Pacificans are not necessarily their government. We are against the NPO, but absolutely for a good community in the Pacific with their own unique culture.

[Milozoldyck]

Would the New Pacific Order care to comment on Emperor Hopeychangey having been an endorsee in the New Lazarene Order coup?

(Image)

No wonder Milograd was so excited you were going to be Emperor. What a joke.

He wasn't really involved. The nation was created solely for the op, so someone must have asked him. He was not a sitting senator at the time, nor was he high gov anywhere. A nation he made temporarily three years ago with little involvement doesn't really make him a plotter. He had less than 10 posts from the date of his account creation of NS NPO forums in 2013 to 2016.

Upon further consideration, I'm almost certain that I was the one who asked him to make a nation. I don't remember actually doing so, of course, because it was a) a long time ago and b) not that big a deal to me.

I put him in the WFE because he wasn't involved NS at the time: That meant that he wasn't a risk to go rogue.

That's the 100%, honest-to-God truth from my end.

EDIT: LoD may wish to clarify his end. I won't speak for him.

[Unibot III]

It's arguably not even the biggest infiltration of Osiris. Liz Lemons (Jakker) was pretty wild, no? I didn't see any ramifications of that come from the Black Hawks.

Well, just for starters, that saga concluded more than five years ago. You may be right that there weren't sufficient consequences, but that's in the past.

Secondly, though, it's worth noting that just days after Jakker's infiltration was exposed, The Dourian Embassy launched a coup of Osiris backed by Gatesville Inc that lasted for a month. As you can imagine, Osiris became preoccupied by that coup, and afterward became preoccupied with trying to fix the things that allowed the coup to happen in the first place. That resulted in dissolution of the Kemetic Republic of Osiris by the Pharaoh, followed by a civil war, followed by the OFO 1.0 "coup" (I still don't acknowledge it as an actual coup). Osiris was a bit too busy to impose any consequences on The Black Hawks, and by the time the dust settled, Osiris was a radically different region than it had been at the time The Black Hawks infiltrated it. So comparing that situation to this one is really just not a useful comparison when you look at the full context of that incident.

Mad Jack is also correct that the Adytus/Wrektopia/Kowassati/Weast Jurmany infiltration was much bigger than the Lemon Love infiltration.

Regardless of how common infiltrations are -- and I don't think they're at all common anymore -- I'm not sure how anyone expected the wronged parties to respond. "Aw, well, these things happen"? "We didn't punish TBH five years ago, so better not do anything now either"? I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that infiltrations like this weren't handled with appropriate gravity in the past, but how that argument is then turned into "...so they shouldn't be handled with appropriate gravity now either" is the part I'm not getting. If anyone is looking for me to say past infiltrations should have been taken more seriously, fine, I'll say it: Past infiltrations should have been taken more seriously. That's not going to persuade me to then say "since they weren't, we're not going to take this one seriously either." I'm not going to abide by 2013 standards, five years later. I would prefer to set new standards for 2018.

I'm not sure I even understand the point you're trying to make here. I'm just saying infiltration has been very common, even in Osiris and even by people here that are now leading the war cry. Don't get me wrong, NPO stinks to high heaven, but I think it's confusing for TSP from a foreign policy standpoint to defend TBH here - NPO was involved in some manner with the occupation of TSP, but so was TBH - TBH had its hand on the banjection button and proudly declared "let's fuck shit up." NPO has infiltrated Osiris, but so did TBH. I agree with Madjack that Liz Lemons was not as well rooted in Osiris, but I recall hearing chats with the Pharaoh about Liz being a very disruptive force politically in Osiris (Madjack would know more and, more still about the extent of the infiltration.)

Ultimately, you're getting frustrated with defenders not picking a side on NPO, but I think many defenders see two sides that have thoroughly undermined feeder and sinker sovereignty. Which is partly why they're reluctant to really get involved materially with either side in a future war effort.

Yes, you convicted me of "treason" for spouting off and saying I was going to infiltrate the South Pacific, even though I never actually did infiltrate TSP and you had absolutely no proof I infiltrated TSP (because I hadn't). Congratulations. For what it's worth, I'm sorry I lost my temper and threatened to infiltrate TSP, but to even try to put that on par with what the NPO has actually done is just ridiculous, and you know it.

No offense intended here, Cormac, but you've admitted that you threatened to infiltrate to TSP - why would that not be grounds for criminal prosecution in a democratic GCR?

You again threatened to coup my home region and did so flippantly then. This is apparently a pattern.

This iteration of leadership in The Pacific does not have the slightest idea of how to PLAY NationStates. How can you expect non-players to respond to diplomatic actions? Of course they are stalling. Imagine the daunting task of trying to learn a new game and culture.

And I agree with Darkesia, a lot of the Pacific's FA blunders come from tying itself to a non-NS metaverse, a command structure that extends beyond the game and doesn't really think like NationStaters do. I've been arguing this internally for a while now. I don't believe the leadership in the Pacific is actually very independent.

[Sunmi]

How exactly is that the case? Until this appointment that was decided by Aleisyr as his replacement, there was virtually no CN gov Emperor since Moo-Cows, nor Senators really. It existed under an entirely separate command structure and Aleisyr was never involved with CN much. Pergamon barely played. The other senators either don't play or barely play. There isn't anyone telling NS government what to do on specific issues. Aleisyr chose to make LoD his replacement as he thought LoD would be a clean break from the governments they've had the past few years. There was a complete schism aside from minimal interactions like them getting non-players like LoD and Frawley between NS NPO and the other branches until 2 years ago and even, no one until LoD became an actual Senator with any influence over what NS NPO did.

He has a Senator handling FA that is very based in NS in Xoriet, so this is kind of dumb to suggest that he's stalling because he doesn't know the game.

[Kurnugia]

How exactly is that the case? Until this appointment that was decided by Aleisyr as his replacement, there was virtually no CN gov Emperor since Moo-Cows, nor Senators really. It existed under an entirely separate command structure and Aleisyr was never involved with CN much. Pergamon barely played. The other senators either don't play or barely play. There isn't anyone telling NS government what to do on specific issues. Aleisyr chose to make LoD his replacement as he thought LoD would be a clean break from the governments they've had the past few years. There was a complete schism aside from minimal interactions like them getting non-players like LoD and Frawley between NS NPO and the other branches until 2 years ago and even, no one until LoD became an actual Senator with any influence over what NS NPO did.

He has a Senator handling FA that is very based in NS in Xoriet, so this is kind of dumb to suggest that he's stalling because he doesn't know the game.

I'd like to know who you are. I don't like reading stuff from a no-name puppet.

[East Durthang]

Would the New Pacific Order care to comment on Emperor Hopeychangey having been an endorsee in the New Lazarene Order coup?

(Image)

No wonder Milograd was so excited you were going to be Emperor. What a joke.

For clarification: My nation and puppets have been used for military operations for their entire existence - including NLO, Femdom, St Abbaddon and numerous other minor skirmishes - as a foot soldier so do not incorrectly imply I had a role in plotting the New Lazarene Order coup. Almost anyone who was an active member at the time would have been ordered to use their nation a similar manner, including several other non-governmental members of ours listed in that WFE screenshot you provided. It is not uncommon for regional raids to select various members who are unlikely to screw up the operation as points or to use as regional officers/potential regional officers.

NLO is a matter of the past and I do not bear any ill will towards the current administration of Lazarus nor desire to orchestrate a similar operation against them. However if Lazarus desires I can provide them with screenshots and potentially chat logs detailing the extent of my involvement in that affair. (For the record my greatest and only contribution in the NLO part of our forums was in response to a request for an image to be uploaded.)

----

Due to their personal nature and our interest in not making discussions be about another game, Darkesia's concerns will also be directly addressed to her soon. However, for the moment I will say that my appointment was not meant as a takeover by a certain other game but because it was the best available option for NPO within the context of NationStates.

[Altinsane]

He wasn't really involved. The nation was created solely for the op, so someone must have asked him. He was not a sitting senator at the time, nor was he high gov anywhere. A nation he made temporarily three years ago with little involvement doesn't really make him a plotter. He had less than 10 posts from the date of his account creation of NS NPO forums in 2013 to 2016.

Upon further consideration, I'm almost certain that I was the one who asked him to make a nation. I don't remember actually doing so, of course, because it was a) a long time ago and b) not that big a deal to me.

I put him in the WFE because he wasn't involved NS at the time: That meant that he wasn't a risk to go rogue.

That's the 100%, honest-to-God truth from my end.

EDIT: LoD may wish to clarify his end. I won't speak for him.

"I don't remember inviting him at all and didn't know he was a part of the thing until now, but here's a 100% accurate account of what I did after that."

Mmmm...

/doubt

I keep hoping that at a certain point NPO will realize that lies, coverups, and broken promises will get them nowhere. Sometimes you just have to admit that you are not innocent. This isn't even a game where it's a disaster not to be innocent. This child's game where we keep proving that you aren't, and you keep insisting that you are (but ofc you're still very sorry, and will still make reparations, and will still do better next time) has very seriously gotten out of hand. It took searching for help in a completely different game from a person completely uninformed about NS and what he would be dealing with here to find someone that might have cleans hands, and even they were not innocent. Give it up.

[Syberis]

It's arguably not even the biggest infiltration of Osiris. Liz Lemons (Jakker) was pretty wild, no? I didn't see any ramifications of that come from the Black Hawks.

Liz Lemons was one person, this was four, who at one time occupied all the Guardian positions in the region and only didn't capture the region because the delegate at the time would not be removed.

Let it be written that Osiris' savior was Syb's obstinacy.

[Lord Dominator]

Liz Lemons was one person, this was four, who at one time occupied all the Guardian positions in the region and only didn't capture the region because the delegate at the time would not be removed.

Let it be written that Osiris' savior was Syb's obstinacy.

Praise be to he

[Neo Domais]

We are for a Pacific that plays nice with there fellow regions!

[La Navasse]

I like the NPO.

I agree.

I think that a flow between NationStates, Politics & War, and CyberNations is beneficial: although each universe has different perspectives, flow between them allow for an interchange of ideas that lives beyond the echo chambers perpetuated by each universe's inherent limitations.