St Abbaddon

[Guy]

Kitsco and Topid both have the right to reside in St Abbaddon subject only to the wishes of its natives, not the wishes of foreign regions.

St Abbaddon (as a collective of its natives) has the right to determine its own Delegate, be that Kitsco, Topid, or another person altogether.

An invading foreign force definitely should not gain the Delegacy.

There is no course of action here that is fully compatible with restoring complete native sovereignty over St Abbaddon.

[Juuuuust DO IT]

Kitsco and Topid both have the right to reside in St Abbaddon subject only to the wishes of its natives, not the wishes of foreign regions.

St Abbaddon (as a collective of its natives) has the right to determine its own Delegate, be that Kitsco, Topid, or another person altogether.

An invading foreign force definitely should not gain the Delegacy.

There is no course of action here that is fully compatible with restoring complete native sovereignty over St Abbaddon.

My org will allow them both to reside there without outside rule.

The NPO will not.

The price of that is that TBH gets the delegacy for a bit. The price for us of Topid's support in this matter against The NPO is letting him have it when we're done. It's a mutually beneficial agreement, that restores sovereignty in the long run - at least as far as TBH is concerned. The only one likely to threaten it when we leave it to Topid is The Pacific, again. At that point, feel free to help Topid - we'll owe him nothing, and vice versa.

[The Kramer]

But I'm like a Junior Mint. And who's gonna turn down a Junior Mint? It's chocolate, it's peppermint—it's delicious. How about this: I'll make a regional event where everyone goes to a pizzeria and makes their own pie? Or we can make a cute St. Abbaddon coffee table book about coffee tables. Vote for Kramerica Industries for a sainter tomorrow.

Yay, a fellow Seinfeld fan!

I am neutral in this, but, Seinfeld...

If you want to see Kramer take over the apartment, support the cause by donating to the Human Fund and endorsing me.

[Consular]

I'm not sure how any self-respecting defender could want to support an ego project of NPO's. I'm vaguely aware of the gunboat diplomacy that's gone on between NPO and Topid but I'm confused by anyone supporting the NPO here. Did they auction their spines off? And how much did they fetch for?

+ CoS and the rest of you

Macro strategy overrides micro idealism. Look at the big picture.

Anyway I see TBH and IJCC on one side and that's really all the context I need. Doesn't matter if Topid's claim is legitimate, his support base is not. If Topid was point I'd be more amenable.

[The Tri State Area and Maine]

I'm not sure how any self-respecting defender could want to support an ego project of NPO's. I'm vaguely aware of the gunboat diplomacy that's gone on between NPO and Topid but I'm confused by anyone supporting the NPO here. Did they auction their spines off? And how much did they fetch for?

+ CoS and the rest of you

Macro strategy overrides micro idealism. Look at the big picture.

Anyway I see TBH and IJCC on one side and that's really all the context I need. Doesn't matter if Topid's claim is legitimate, his support base is not. If Topid was point I'd be more amenable.

So you care more about who is liberating St Abbadon than the fact that it is being liberated in the first place?

[Juuuuust DO IT]

I'm not sure how any self-respecting defender could want to support an ego project of NPO's. I'm vaguely aware of the gunboat diplomacy that's gone on between NPO and Topid but I'm confused by anyone supporting the NPO here. Did they auction their spines off? And how much did they fetch for?

+ CoS and the rest of you

Macro strategy overrides micro idealism. Look at the big picture.

Anyway I see TBH and IJCC on one side and that's really all the context I need. Doesn't matter if Topid's claim is legitimate, his support base is not. If Topid was point I'd be more amenable.

Actions must have consequences.

[The Armed Forces of TDDROH]

[New Waldensia]

Don't have a dog in this fight, just...

... what's wrong with being tagged "Conservative"?

[Flanderlion]

I mean, Topid was the one attempting to destroy the region earlier when moderation gave him the power. Thankfully it was thwarted but still... Not sure how you could put him as the good guy here. He's invading his old region that he was kicked from by the rest of the regions natives.

Plus he's at the helm of an army of raiders and other undesirables + TNP (who are desirable even if they are supporting the wrong side) attempting to destroy the natives. TBH said they won't kick, but Topid has in the past ejected natives from St Abby and now that he has more hate in his heart for those that supported his removal, I doubt he'll play nicer long term.

[Cormactopia Prime]

I mean, Topid was the one attempting to destroy the region earlier when moderation gave him the power. Thankfully it was thwarted but still... Not sure how you could put him as the good guy here. He's invading his old region that he was kicked from by the rest of the regions natives.

Plus he's at the helm of an army of raiders and other undesirables + TNP (who are desirable even if they are supporting the wrong side) attempting to destroy the natives. TBH said they won't kick, but Topid has in the past ejected natives from St Abby and now that he has more hate in his heart for those that supported his removal, I doubt he'll play nicer long term.

Oh look, a Pacifican telling lies about Topid. How surprising.

[Flanderlion]

Go through the RMB when the mods took it from DEN/ the St Abby lib thread. He's not exactly a knight in shining armour rescuing the natives.

[Gone with the Flood]

It's not as if the NPO having the favour of various defender-leaning organisations is much of a surprise, given their numerous attempts to build relations.

The extent to which the South Pacific's foreign policy here is compromised is frustrating.

The extent to which the South Pacific's foreign policy is frustrating, is, naturally, limitless.

[The Armed Forces of TDDROH]

It's not as if the NPO having the favour of various defender-leaning organisations is much of a surprise, given their numerous attempts to build relations.

The extent to which the South Pacific's foreign policy here is compromised is frustrating. It's 'short-term gain, long-term pain' realism.

They should have never have gotten themselves into the situation where they had to put their fingers in their ears and accept the coercion of St Abbaddon as some sort of reasonable payoff when they did. Topid has had to rely on invaders and imperialists to recover St Abbaddon and the South Pacific has bandwagoned with an aggressive, authoritarian GCR (NPO) for the same identical reason: the absence of a defender military superpower that can go toe to toe with the New Pacific Order.

Wha?

We are defending st abb's natives?

[Raionitu]

The extent to which the South Pacific's foreign policy here is compromised is frustrating. It's 'short-term gain, long-term pain' realism.

They should have never have gotten themselves into the situation where they had to put their fingers in their ears and accept the coercion of St Abbaddon as some sort of reasonable payoff when they did. Topid has had to rely on invaders and imperialists to recover St Abbaddon and the South Pacific has bandwagoned with an aggressive, authoritarian GCR (NPO) for the same identical reason: the absence of a defender military superpower that can go toe to toe with the New Pacific Order.

Wha?

We are defending st abb's natives?

no

[Kanaia]

An honest to God pile war?! Color me impressed.

[Topid]

I mean, Topid was the one attempting to destroy the region earlier when moderation gave him the power. Thankfully it was thwarted but still... Not sure how you could put him as the good guy here. He's invading his old region that he was kicked from by the rest of the regions natives.

You don't know what you're talking about. I briefly considered closing the region and leaving only me and a few trusted peeps to keep it alive until I had time to look after it, on the assumption that if I had to leave for 2 years for IRL reasons without Hawks[wind] to be the rock who knows what would happen. Motions around at general tyranny, this is the type of shit I was concerned about.

I would never refound the region, don't believe your bosses lie.

EDITED for clarity. "Hawk" to me is Hawks to me is the former native of St Abbaddon, a rather unfortunate coincidence.

[The Armed Forces of TDDROH]

Wha?

We are defending st abb's natives?

no

Yeah we are. Kitsco is the rightful Delegate and no RRAL invaders are going to take it.

[Solorni]

The most shocking thing for me today is the collapse of defending's moral center. As much as I often have opposed various defenders, I think I've often felt like I understood where they were coming from. Stories about how they started because their homes were raided. But for the first time, nearly every defender... particularly prominent and storied ones... have demonstrated the opposite, not even pretending to pay lip service to the values that they have long espoused. To me, it has been completely shocking.

There is a famous series from WW2 called "Why we fight" and if one were to ask me why defenders fight... today, for the first time I honestly have no idea.

[Flanderlion]

I mean, Topid was the one attempting to destroy the region earlier when moderation gave him the power. Thankfully it was thwarted but still... Not sure how you could put him as the good guy here. He's invading his old region that he was kicked from by the rest of the regions natives.

You don't know what you're talking about. I briefly considered closing the region and leaving only me and a few trusted peeps to keep it alive until I had time to look after it, on the assumption that if I had to leave for 2 years for IRL reasons without Hawks to be the rock who knows what would happen. Motions around at general tyranny, this is the type of shit I was concerned about.

I would never refound the region, don't believe your bosses lie.

viewtopic.php?p=28911306#p28911306
https://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=19544442 just read the RMB around there for the few pages.

Yeah, I got that bit wrong - was password and kill it.

---

I mean, defenders are conflicted. On one hand, there is Kitsco and the other natives of St Abby attempting to stand against raider hordes, and on the other, Topid, a native who was ejected for foreign reasons (albeit by the rest of the region) who is an ex defender.

Edit: Added the --- to divide up where I was replying to Rach

[Unibot III]

I'm not sure how any self-respecting defender could want to support an ego project of NPO's. I'm vaguely aware of the gunboat diplomacy that's gone on between NPO and Topid but I'm confused by anyone supporting the NPO here. Did they auction their spines off? And how much did they fetch for?

+ CoS and the rest of you

Macro strategy overrides micro idealism. Look at the big picture.

Anyway I see TBH and IJCC on one side and that's really all the context I need. Doesn't matter if Topid's claim is legitimate, his support base is not. If Topid was point I'd be more amenable.

I am looking at the big picture: defenderdom has hitched itself to NPO.

[Topid]

Yeah, I got that bit wrong - was password and kill it.

No worries mate, I suspect you were fed it wrong. You don't seem like that bad a bloke.

[Augustus Rex]

Kitsco's gotten a bit faster at ejecting since last time.

[Altmoras]

Kitsco's sense of dramatic timing is on point.

[Miss Bad Life Choices]

Today was truly an amazing day. The Black Hawks and Pals getting 162 and NPO and Friends getting 146 endorsements. Truly astounding for both sides of the conflict and both sides should give themselves a pat on the back for all the hard work that went into this even though the pile-off didn't matter in the end.

[Jakker]

I'm speechless. I have no speech. These last 12 hours have been a chaotic, beautiful mess and embodied what NationStates is all about. Players from all over coming together and finding a reason to truly take a side and engage to the fullest. Like fuck, dude. I am in awe with all of the regions and players that came to support this mission. In this moment, words seem a little limited to fully convey the joy that we were able to create. We inspired intense motivation to push our abilities to the limits. 162 endorsements in 12 hours. This has not happened in such a long time. We were ahead. Today will be remembered in NationStates history for years to come and you can say that you were part of it.

Thank you to all of the regions, organizations, and individuals that were on our side. Even though we had tough luck and wasn't able to see our hard work tangibly realized, please know that it is truly realized and sincerely appreciated. Giddy up.

-Jakker
Council Chairman of The Black Hawks