Independent Joint Command Coalition

[Solorni]

To be fair, I'm pretty sure that most of the current countries that use fasce in their symbols did so before World War 2. As well, I doubt that the NPO used the fasce because they draw inspiration from the democratic countries that use it today. It is more likely that the NPO used it because of either the Romans or the Fascists. I would think that it is likely that it is the Romans, but it seems a little bit awkward when your ideology shares the name of Franco and his Francoism.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

Cameroon adopted the fasces on its coat of arms in 1986.

[Jar Wattinree]

To be fair, I'm pretty sure that most of the current countries that use fasce in their symbols did so before World War 2. As well, I doubt that the NPO used the fasce because they draw inspiration from the democratic countries that use it today. It is more likely that the NPO used it because of either the Romans or the Fascists. I would think that it is likely that it is the Romans, but it seems a little bit awkward when your ideology shares the name of Franco and his Francoism.

We take more inspiration from the Romans than more recent stuff. Emperor, Senate, Praetorian, Legio Pacifica, Censor, Pontifex Maximus, Consul... all of 'em have Roman origin.

[Solorni]

To be fair, I'm pretty sure that most of the current countries that use fasce in their symbols did so before World War 2. As well, I doubt that the NPO used the fasce because they draw inspiration from the democratic countries that use it today. It is more likely that the NPO used it because of either the Romans or the Fascists. I would think that it is likely that it is the Romans, but it seems a little bit awkward when your ideology shares the name of Franco and his Francoism.

We take more inspiration from the Romans than more recent stuff. Emperor, Senate, Praetorian, Legio Pacifica, Censor, Pontifex Maximus, Consul... all of 'em have Roman origin.

Darn fascists ruining everything.

[Jar Wattinree]

We take more inspiration from the Romans than more recent stuff. Emperor, Senate, Praetorian, Legio Pacifica, Censor, Pontifex Maximus, Consul... all of 'em have Roman origin.

Darn fascists ruining everything.

Hey, you stole my line!

[Unibot III]

(Image)

(I've blurred out the swastika.)

Yeah, and many places such as a lot of public US monuments, not to mention France in its national emblem, use the fasces.

Because the Vikings and Pharaohs were known for their liberal values and love of democracy Abaddon is literally a demon, and raiders have a mascot that is death. Every imperialist region uses imagery and themes of countries that committed atrocious acts of violence throughout history, and the whole concept of imperialism is extremely problematic IRL.

Unless you're going to accuse NPO leadership of being literal fascists, save the feigned outrage over the name "Franocism."

Well, what are they, Glen? If you want to have this argument, we can have it.

Are they democrats? Absolutely not.

They're not monarchists. Doctrine is absolute on that, they detest monarchy.

Nor are the NPO, anarchists.

And they're not libertarians.

The New Pacific Order believes in authoritarianism. They believe in self-sufficiency. They believe in a strong leader. They believe in aggressive expansionism. They blame problems on "userites," and rampant pluralism - scapegoats they identify as unpatriotic; seeking instead to mobilize, and unilaterally voicing the will of, the people ("feederites"). They believe in censorship. They believe in rank ("meritocracy") over equality. They believe in the internal resolution of "class conflict" (the eradication of the userite). They believe in the Order as one collective entity that you submit to, that is above and all-embracing of you - the abolition of the individual. They believe in total allegiance to the Order, to the Emperor, and to its destiny: the annihilation of the userite and the imperialization of all Game-Created Regions.

Never mind that the original forum flew the fascist symbol and its founder was named Francos fucking Spain: the doctrine of the New Pacific Order is very much a fascist doctrine, and the New Pacific Order operates internally and externally very much in fascist manner. When one past NPO Emperor threatened to destroy the NPO because the kids that would "Heil!" him reminded him of his time serving in Bosnia, he was speaking truefully. The New Pacific Order is is for all intents and purposes, a fascist organization with fascist goals and a fascist governing philosophy.

I quote Pierre Elliott Trudeau in saying "a nationalistic government is by nature intolerant, discriminatory, and when all is said and done, totalitarian. A truly democratic government cannot be 'nationalist,' because it must pursue the good of all its citizens, without prejudice to ethnic origin. The democratic government, then, stands for, and encourages good citizenship, never nationalism." Those who believe in democracy in NationStates should denounce the New Pacific Order for its views. I believe in the rights and fundamental equality of the individual. I believe in good citizenship subject to no paragon, no blue-eyed, blond ideal. I believe in skepticism and rationalism. I believe in cooperation between regions. The principle of non-aggression - which the NPO plainly disregarded in its intimidation of St Abbaddon - is to be upheld as a basis for interregional peace and the free movement of peoples.

The attitude you're voicing here is not consistent with your years as a defender of individual rights and freedom in NationStates.

Dare I say it, I believe it's principally motivated by the ill-conceived alliance between the South Pacific and the New Pacific Order.

[Consular]

Lol so the IJCC has collapsed already. Nice

[Legio XXII Polonia]

Everyone with a shred of common sense left has dismissed this point by now. Its logic is of value that is comparable to the logic of witch-hunting peasants from Monty Python and Holy Grail. High comedic value, not much else.

But hey. You already realize that in no way is this Order endorsing or associating with Spanish Falangism. We could add that disclaimer unto our civil code, if the Emprah strikes it fancy.

NPO: "the fasces in the background is just for show."

The French must feel really fashy with this little baby on their passports:


Oh, look, another one! It's almost like DOOGGHAALLLD DRUMMMPHHHFFFF is Hitler after all!



Ignorance is strength. Especially when you're making a tool out of yourself to own the NPO. Anyone knows who else uses the logic of "have you seen this sign here?" Illuminati Confirmed memes. Apologies for reminding everyone of those.

[Unibot III]

You're like a kid who posts Buddhist signs to prove the Swastika isn't Fascist. Go home.

[Kurnugia]

snip

In NS we already have freedom of movement. Even the NPO has it. Maybe just maybe, the reason why certain ppl switched to the NPO such as Xor and myself is that we have found a welcoming community there and choose to make it our new home. Ultimately, everything in NS is a democracy. Be it either by the ballot or by the "move to xyz" button.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

You're like a kid who posts Buddhist signs to prove the Swastika isn't Fascist. Go home.

Is Cameroon fascist? They adopted the fasces as part of their coat of arms in 1986...

[Jar Wattinree]

You're like a kid who posts Buddhist signs to prove the Swastika isn't Fascist. Go home.

Feels great to try and excise context in order to score IC political points with OOC "evidence", amiright?

[Kurnugia]

You're like a kid who posts Buddhist signs to prove the Swastika isn't Fascist. Go home.

I believe in skepticism and rationalism.

You certainly aren't very rational and sceptical when it comes to symbolism. But hey next time you see someone doing the "OK" sign, I fully expect you to flip out about it

[Unibot III]

Ultimately, everything in NS is a democracy. Be it either by the ballot or by the "move to xyz" button.

I presume that includes the ejection button, then?

Surely the NPO has some dusty old (formerly banned, unbanned) Senator Emeritus is could get to argue its case if it insists on nattering away here with this junk.

I only seek to ridicule and criticize the NPO on a purely volunteer basis, it's not my full time occupation.

[Kurnugia]

Ultimately, everything in NS is a democracy. Be it either by the ballot or by the "move to xyz" button.

I presume that includes the ejection button, then?

Surely the NPO has some dusty old (formerly banned, unbanned) Senator Emeritus is could get to argue its case if it insists on nattering away here with this junk.

I only seek to ridicule and criticize the NPO on a purely volunteer basis, it's not my full time occupation.

The only guy that is being ridiculed is you rn

Every region is free to do. If some are happy to play as a dictatorial regime, that is their choice. Or will you deny natives that choice, because it doesn't give you a warm feeling? The success of a region depends on their appeal to people. If the NPO starts being generous with their banjection, they will wither a fail.

[Jar Wattinree]

Ultimately, everything in NS is a democracy. Be it either by the ballot or by the "move to xyz" button.

I presume that includes the ejection button, then?

Surely the NPO has some dusty old (formerly banned, unbanned) Senator Emeritus is could get to argue its case if it insists on nattering away here with this junk.

I only seek to ridicule and criticize the NPO on a purely volunteer basis, it's not my full time occupation.

Nah, we have plenty of blood to do that, and you seem quite attentive for a "volunteer". Let sleeping Senators Emeriti be.

[Roavin]

Also, the timing of this is legitimately side-splitting.

This.

Dare I say it, I believe it's principally motivated by the ill-conceived alliance between the South Pacific and the New Pacific Order.

Madjack, too, is motivated by that ill-conceived alliance between the North Pacific and the New Pacific Order.

Oh, wait, um, ....

Well, what are they, Glen? If you want to have this argument, we can have it.

Sure. They're francoists, an emergent label that is NationStates exclusive. Just like the term "Independent" has absolutely nothing to do with the dictionary definition, but rather is an emergent label for regions like Balder, Europeia, LKE, and others of that sort. Cosmopolitanism, Unaligned, Defender, Raider, Invader - these are all terms that are rooted in RL terms in their etymology, but have emergent NS specific definitions.

They could have called it "Shopping Cart". Or "Penis". Or "McCheese". As it is, the inaugural nation's name happened to be "Francos Spain", that was easy to propagandize (which is important in this game, even if nobody likes saying it out loud), and thus Unlimited made it "Francoism". Tadaa.

I find this entire line of reasoning by (particularly) Souls and Unibot absolutely absurd.

[Kurnugia]

They could have called it "Shopping Cart". Or "Penis". Or "McCheese". As it is, the inaugural nation's name happened to be "Francos Spain", that was easy to propagandize (which is important in this game, even if nobody likes saying it out loud), and thus Unlimited made it "Francoism". Tadaa.

.

The second name sounds awesome we could call it [BEEP] and ideology to [BEEP] UCR.

[Solorni]

Sure. They're francoists, an emergent label that is NationStates exclusive. Just like the term "Independent" has absolutely nothing to do with the dictionary definition, but rather is an emergent label for regions like Balder, Europeia, LKE, and others of that sort.

To be fair, we never had the urge or even had a glancing thought to call our ideology "Mussolinism" or "Szálasism" or after some other fascist. Francoism is even a fascist thing irl. Cormac brought up a great point, why doesn't the NPO simply stop using it?

[Aclion]

Sure. They're francoists, an emergent label that is NationStates exclusive. Just like the term "Independent" has absolutely nothing to do with the dictionary definition, but rather is an emergent label for regions like Balder, Europeia, LKE, and others of that sort. Cosmopolitanism, Unaligned, Defender, Raider, Invader - these are all terms that are rooted in RL terms in their etymology, but have emergent NS specific definitions.

They could have called it "Shopping Cart". Or "Penis". Or "McCheese". As it is, the inaugural nation's name happened to be "Francos Spain", that was easy to propagandize (which is important in this game, even if nobody likes saying it out loud), and thus Unlimited made it "Francoism". Tadaa.

I find this entire line of reasoning by (particularly) Souls and Unibot absolutely absurd.

I doubt a nation named penis would last long enough to start any nationstates movements

[Roavin]

Sure. They're francoists, an emergent label that is NationStates exclusive. Just like the term "Independent" has absolutely nothing to do with the dictionary definition, but rather is an emergent label for regions like Balder, Europeia, LKE, and others of that sort.

To be fair, we never had the urge or even had a glancing thought to call our ideology "Mussolinism" or "Szálasism" or after some other fascist.

I'm not sure if you misunderstood me or are deliberately obscuring my point. You didn't have a founding figure with the nation name of "Mussolini" or "Szalai" or whatever, and so of course it'd be absurd to entertain that thought!

I had a lot more written on this subject but decided not to engage.

I doubt a nation named penis would last long enough to start any nationstates movements

Disgraced: This name was soiled by a former nation.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Well, what are they, Glen? If you want to have this argument, we can have it.

A region themed around Imperial Rome. Was it stupid to use that symbol a decade ago? Sure was. Is it fair today to basically call the NPO fascist? Absolutely not. It's stupid. Jar Wattinree should probably just shut up, too.

The UDL wasn't advocating theocracy or promoting Catholic views of women or homosexuality when we ripped conclaves straight from Catholic tradition. Nor does Onder have fond feelings over the Scramble for Africa because he advocates imperialism in GP.

The New Pacific Order believes in authoritarianism. They believe in self-sufficiency. They believe in a strong leader. They believe in aggressive expansionism.

As Osiris has, and plenty of other regions nobody has ever called RL-problematic, over the years.

The New Pacific Order is is for all intents and purposes, a fascist organization with fascist goals and a fascist governing philosophy.

You're jumping the shark here.

The attitude you're voicing here is not consistent with your years as a defender of individual rights and freedom in NationStates.

Dare I say it, I believe it's principally motivated by the ill-conceived alliance between the South Pacific and the New Pacific Order.

I didn't think NPOers were literal RL fascists before TSP allied with them, either.

[Jar Wattinree]

I'll shut up when I feel like it.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

This NPO = fascists line is the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen, and TNP had a dos player in a position of power for four years and not even that was as ridiculous as this.

Their use of a fasces is because they were going to be a Roman themed region. The fasces has more connotations than fascism. Their ideology is called Francoism because the nation it is named after was called Francos Spain.

Just stop. It's possibly the most nontroversy that's ever existed.

[Solorni]

To be fair, we never had the urge or even had a glancing thought to call our ideology "Mussolinism" or "Szálasism" or after some other fascist.

I'm not sure if you misunderstood me or are deliberately obscuring my point. You didn't have a founding figure with the nation name of "Mussolini" or "Szalai" or whatever, and so of course it'd be absurd to entertain that thought!

If we had a player named after a fascist, I dont think we would have named our ideology after them and chosen something like Codreanuism or Tisoism. Could you imagine if we had chosen something even "less" bad like Verwoerdism after the founder of apartheid. Europeia banned a citizen because of their usage of apartheid symbols in their citizenship page as well as views. So it is doubtful that we would have named an ideology after a fascist named player.

Would TSP name their ideology after a delegate if they had chosen a fascist name?

I just dont see why it couldn't be dropped or even renamed after something not fascist.