The League & Concord | Consulate Appointments

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

A statement that pointedly doesn't name the treaty ally of yours currently supporting an operation you've already decided is "griefing," and only names those at your back on the lib.

lol.

and stop hiding behind a puppet, souls. no one’s interested in your ham-handed attempts to stir the pot. your playbook is so painfully obvious. didn’t you recently pull the “but you weren’t in the room, you don’t know how it went down” card on me recently? why do you suddenly get to speculate like this? or do your own standards not apply to you?

but i’ll give you a quick moralist interpretation of the situation because i happen to be nice like that.

ethically speaking, moralism cannot and should not preclude working with independent organizations. if you hold sovereignty in the highest regard, the resolution is simply to liberate the attacked region. you don’t hang sanctions over their heads or try to get them to pull out. you need not dictate what the independent orgs ought or ought not to do, as much as you know it is wrong. this conflict has arisen countless times before and it has literally never posed a barrier to defenders working with independents. you hand the region back to its rightful owners and you carry on with your treaties intact.

so go ahead. continue to make up some bullshit world in which these things aren’t compatible or in which defenders attempt to force the hands of their allies. i am sure we’d all thoroughly enjoy it.

[Brox Reple]

Congrats to Tirol! Looking forward to seeing what you do

[Reploid Productions]

And props to the raiders in this thread, who decided to use their collective single braincell to try and do some spin.

There's gameplay snark, and then there's blatant flaming/baiting by implying an entire group of players are stupid. This was not the former, and very much the latter. You can criticize raider commentary without calling them all mentally deficient.

*** Matthew the Man, WARNED for flaming/baiting. ***

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

A statement that pointedly doesn't name the treaty ally of yours currently supporting an operation you've already decided is "griefing," and only names those at your back on the lib.

lol.

and stop hiding behind a puppet, souls. no one’s interested in your ham-handed attempts to stir the pot. your playbook is so painfully obvious. didn’t you recently pull the “but you weren’t in the room, you don’t know how it went down” card on me recently? why do you suddenly get to speculate like this? or do your own standards not apply to you?

but i’ll give you a quick moralist interpretation of the situation because i happen to be nice like that.

ethically speaking, moralism cannot and should not preclude working with independent organizations. if you hold sovereignty in the highest regard, the resolution is simply to liberate the attacked region. you don’t hang sanctions over their heads or try to get them to pull out. you need not dictate what the independent orgs ought or ought not to do, as much as you know it is wrong. this conflict has arisen countless times before and it has literally never posed a barrier to defenders working with independents. you hand the region back to its rightful owners and you carry on with your treaties intact.

so go ahead. continue to make up some bullshit world in which these things aren’t compatible or in which defenders attempt to force the hands of their allies. i am sure we’d all thoroughly enjoy it.

Sorry it deeply offends you that I've got my RO nation logged in on one computer rn and my main on another =P

You can post what you want here, but I think you've already made your opinions on TCB far more clear behind far less spin elsewhere and last week =) Wasn't it that they were "making your point for you" that they were "raider stooges" by signing a very loose treaty with TBH? That they had "tainted judgement?" That raiders cannot possibly "act in good faith" with allies but of course defenders always do? That "Raiding is categorically wrong and [you] don't trust anyone who engages in it" at all?

And please, defenders stopped "holding sovereignty in the highest regard" when they either began partaking in raiding those they feel don't deserve sovereignty purely for their GP choices, or tacitly approving their peers doing so. I mean, the very statement this began with said:

Equally, we will pursue both diplomatic and, if ultimately necessary, military avenues against regions that choose to align with raiders in order to defend our partners across NationStates.

Clearly, The League just openly said it's going to "pursue military avenues" against regions that raid.

[RiderSyl]

this conflict has arisen countless times before and it has literally never posed a barrier to defenders working with independents.

okay, sorry to do this while you're fending off Souls, but "literally never" is such bad hyperbole with the UDL and FRA existing way back there in ancient history

[Quebecshire]

Clearly, The League just openly said it's going to "pursue military avenues" against regions that raid.

The League('s Defense Forces) will pursue offensive action against invader regions, that much is correct. This is not a new philosophy, one largely pioneered by 10000 Islands and The Grey Wardens over many years. There are a number of reasons we adhere to this doctrine, as it is specifically mentioned in the Mission Statement and Policies section of the LDF overview dispatch. This is not new.

Chiefly, as its mentioned in the dispatch, we view incessant invading and griefing of innocent regions as a forfeiture of one's own inherent right to sovereignty. Secondly, invader "regions" represent a base of operations and cultural (or, if applicable, political) hub for that organization's base of operation and aggression, and as such silencing them is ultimately for the good of the sovereignty clause globally.

Not all defenders agree with this line of thinking (notably W&S included), but it is hardly new or odd.

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

this conflict has arisen countless times before and it has literally never posed a barrier to defenders working with independents.

okay, sorry to do this while you're fending off Souls, but "literally never" is such bad hyperbole with the UDL and FRA existing way back there in ancient history

lol, i didn’t even read souls’ response to me

i loved the FRA but they existed in a time when there was no true independentism. and the UDL… well, they were the UDL.

defenders have wanted independents to work with for a long time. frankly as long as i can remember. but the independentism of their day was not independentism. it was raiders doing basically what TBH did for the better part of the last five years by attempting to sanitize their bullshit. when we used to meme about “independents” it was bc the word was a meaningless attempt at sanitizing raiding.

but of course this was doomed to fail because there is no sanitizing raiding. and honestly I’m kinda glad that tbh’s disastrous foreign policy has shown that to the world.

and now truly independent orgs that, while I disagree with them on their practices, that doesn’t overshadow my thankfulness to them nor does it preclude our desire to work with them.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

okay, sorry to do this while you're fending off Souls, but "literally never" is such bad hyperbole with the UDL and FRA existing way back there in ancient history

lol, i didn’t even read souls’ response to me

i loved the FRA but they existed in a time when there was no true independentism. and the UDL… well, they were the UDL.

defenders have wanted independents to work with for a long time. frankly as long as i can remember. but the independentism of their day was not independentism. it was raiders doing basically what TBH did for the better part of the last five years by attempting to sanitize their bullshit. when we used to meme about “independents” it was bc the word was a meaningless attempt at sanitizing raiding.

but of course this was doomed to fail because there is no sanitizing raiding. and honestly I’m kinda glad that tbh’s disastrous foreign policy has shown that to the world.

and now truly independent orgs that, while I disagree with them on their practices, that doesn’t overshadow my thankfulness to them nor does it preclude our desire to work with them.

I know you did though

All the talk about old blood Independents, "sanitized raiding," "disastrous foreign policy," etc really ring hollow, however, when those old Capital "I" Independents are off openly and proudly admitting:

When viewed together, these actions seem to suggest that raiders believe that they no longer need Independents. When we (meaning Europeia and regions ideologically similar) participate in a hold, the actions taken against the target region are limited to what is allowed per our guidelines. In that way, regardless of who selected the target or took point, we are in control. When raiders don’t need us, as they seem to be demonstrating with these moves, we’ve lost control.

“The ultimate objective of an Independent region’s diplomacy is to maximize utility for the region, as defined by the regional interests.”

It is clearly not in Europeia’s best interests for raiders to be so self-sufficient as to not need us at all.

...that pushing Raiders into said "sanitization" has long been an outright attempt at controlling the faction all along, as a policy, not a compromise of mutual interest. That those we considered, perhaps too naively, as friends and allies and not merely a resource, were actually seeking to use their support as a weapon to twist and control us, and own it now.

So uh, have fun with your turn at playing along for a few extra endos, until you too get fed up with it? Are you really so sure these Independents today are so different from those ones you're decrying?

Personally, I don't think it's disaster to lose fake friends. "Champagne For My Real Friends, Real Pain For My Sham Friends" (at update). I do think The League is expressing this same mentality of trying to strongarm their allies into following their own moral desires.

My real friends are equally excited to help our operations, signing treaties that neither of us feel restrict the other, and most importantly, not trying to manipulate or restrict the other party =) I would hope The League would treat their real friends the same.

[New Makasta]

-snip-

...that pushing Raiders into said "sanitization" has long been an outright attempt at controlling the faction all along, as a policy, not a compromise of mutual interest. That those we considered, perhaps too naively, as friends and allies and not merely a resource, were actually seeking to use their support as a weapon to twist and control us, and own it now.

So uh, have fun with your turn at playing along for a few extra endos, until you too get fed up with it? Are you really so sure these Independents today are so different from those ones you're decrying?

Personally, I don't think it's disaster to lose fake friends. "Champagne For My Real Friends, Real Pain For My Sham Friends" (at update).

Souls, I may have missed the times in which that sort of attitude was the indie faction but in my short experience in this site the ERN has pretistapated in mulptuile liberations and chasing of raider forces for both tag and occupation attempts. Now correct me if I'm wrong they never did such things till recently and the only thing defender that they did was detaging operations. So yes, it does seem the indies of today are different than the ones of WS's time.

Yes, I know ERN isn't the only indie org on NS but from how understand things they were the face of the movement for a long time.

ps don't try and bait our FA director into saying TCB is a raider region in his first few hours in the job

[RiderSyl]

Souls, I may have missed the times in which that sort of attitude was the indie faction but in my short experience in this site the ERN has pretistapated in mulptuile liberations and chasing of raider forces for both tag and occupation attempts. Now correct me if I'm wrong they never did such things till recently and the only thing defender that they did was detaging operations. So yes, it does seem the indies of today are different than the ones of WS's time.

Yes, I know ERN isn't the only indie org on NS but from how understand things they were the face of the movement for a long time.

I am definitely not Souls, but the EPSA in 2015 under Xoriet participated on both sides similarly. They found themselves mocked/"memed about" by defenders any time they dared to participate on the raider side, and prodded by raiders going "you should just become raider" any time defender mocking came about. It's not that indies of today are different than the ones of WS's time. It's that they're no longer getting snuffed out by overzealousness from both sides.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Souls, I may have missed the times in which that sort of attitude was the indie faction but in my short experience in this site the ERN has pretistapated in mulptuile liberations and chasing of raider forces for both tag and occupation attempts. Now correct me if I'm wrong they never did such things till recently and the only thing defender that they did was detaging operations. So yes, it does seem the indies of today are different than the ones of WS's time.

Yes, I know ERN isn't the only indie org on NS but from how understand things they were the face of the movement for a long time.

ps don't try and bait our FA director into saying TCB is a raider region in his first few hours in the job

That quote is a post from within Euro from this week that saw dozens of posts in agreement

As for the rest - I don't need to "bait" anything. It's pretty straightforwards:


1) Here in this thread, as long as you want to make the quote, Queb and others have said

regions that have consistently and decidedly supported griefing and destruction based operations relentlessly

....will face military consequences.

2) Since the TCB-TBH treaty and recent raider op support by TCB, in an incredible double standard, defenders including League members and dear W&S here, have been saying TCB are basically raider-aligned merely for signing that treaty, in places beyond the reach of this forum.

3) While there have been attempts to backpedal that @ TCB, i.e. "we do not view TCB as fitting the criteria described by our Director (otherwise the treaty would have been repealed by now)," and the treaty including an NAP, they continue to use language that implies a threat to consider TCB raider if their participation in Raider operations continues, and also implied that if TCB executes their sovereign right to engage in military operations "consistently and decidedly" with their own treaty allies, then:

Equally, if in the long-run regions transition away from having a common moral basis, then of course we will renegotiate treaties where necessary in light of those changes.

...the treaty will not last long.

4) TCB is founderless.

TCB isn't stupid, I'm confident in that, their own MoFA already showed up in this thread to politely contest the concept of trying to influence their gameplay. There's no need to "bait" what is being openly said for them to read with their own eyes.

[Reventus Koth]

ps don't try and bait our FA director into saying TCB is a raider region in his first few hours in the job

Look, if two of your guys need to publicly ask for people to stop making the new FA guy do their job, you might need to admit they're not ready for the big leagues. For as much as defenders like to bash on TBH FA, in the last few posts even, you never see us asking for a handicap. Imagine how you'd react if we did. Go ahead, imagine it.

[Quebecshire]

2) Since the TBH treaty and recent raider op support, in an incredible double standard, defenders including League members and dear W&S here, have been saying TCB are basically raider-aligned merely for signing that treaty, in places beyond the reach of this forum.

3) While there have been attempts to backpedal that @ TCB, i.e. "we do not view TCB as fitting the criteria described by our Director (otherwise the treaty would have been repealed by now)," and the treaty including an NAP, they continue to use language that implies a threat to consider TCB raider if their participation in Raider operations continues, and also implied that if TCB executes their sovereign right to engage in military operations "consistently and decidedly" with their own treaty allies, then:

Equally, if in the long-run regions transition away from having a common moral basis, then of course we will renegotiate treaties where necessary in light of those changes.

...the treaty will not last long.

4) TCB is founderless.

TCB isn't stupid, I'm confident in that, their own FM already showed up in this thread to politely contest the concept of trying to influence their gameplay. There's no need to "bait" what is being openly said for them to read with their own eyes.

I would like a citation on any League member representing the government saying that they view TCB as raider aligned, especially in the context of the Director's message. We've said the opposite, in fact. Your deliberate decision to ignore that is not our problem.

If TCB has a problem with any commentary or wants clarification, they are more than welcome to reach out to us as per usual. You are not TCB, you are in fact one of the (unfortunately) returned leaders/figures of two organizations we are in perpetual conflict with. Nobody actually believes you're engaging in good faith here.

ps don't try and bait our FA director into saying TCB is a raider region in his first few hours in the job

Look, if two of your guys need to publicly ask for people to stop making the new FA guy do their job, you might need to admit they're not ready for the big leagues. For as much as defenders like to bash on TBH FA, in the last few posts even, you never see us asking for a handicap. Imagine how you'd react if we did. Go ahead, imagine it.

I am fairly satisfied with Tirol's job performance so far. Nothing he said contradicts what I've said and he certainly held his own here, especially against a relic hiding behind a switcher. He said future situations will be analyzed individually (reasonable), that raiding is bad (reasonable), and that he trusts our treaty allies to engage in good faith (reasonable). He wasn't subbed out so we could argue for him, he was offline from Discord by the time I got home today to engage here.

[New Astri]

spode never said they would try to influence their allies foreign policy decisions :( i liked how spode did things better so far

This isn't the big change this post makes it out to be. Not only did Spode explicitly approve Tirol as his successor, he briefed Tirol on all relevant FA matters as he entered office and remains in our high executive channels until Tirol is fully settled into the position. This is not a significant shift in either foreign nor military policy.

i think it's a little funny that the part you addressed here was me saying that i preferred spode's term better so far and not, like, the part where i was alarmed over the league stating outright it would be attempting to majorly influence its indie allies' foreign affairs to advance its own ideology. i get it, every raider or defender region aligned with an indie region wants that region to like them just a little bit more than the other side. that's understandable. but the approach tl is taking to this is, frankly put, condescending and unfair. members of indie governments are perfectly capable of making the decisions that work for their region, and acting as if their connections with raiders are something that you need to save them from or convince them away from is disingenuous.

you wanna know how you get an indie region to like you?

by respecting them and appreciating them for what they are. by forming legitimate cultural bonds with them. by interacting respectfully even when you disagree with one of their policies. certainly not by publicly treating them like a work-in-progress instead of an equal.

(edit: fucked up quote formatting, hopefully what i just did fixed it..? ah well if not y'all can still tell what queb said vs what i said)

[Quebecshire]

i think it's a little funny that the part you addressed here was me saying that i preferred spode's term better so far and not, like, the part where i was alarmed over the league stating outright it would be attempting to majorly influence its indie allies' foreign affairs to advance its own ideology. i get it, every raider or defender region aligned with an indie region wants that region to like them just a little bit more than the other side. that's understandable. but the approach tl is taking to this is, frankly put, condescending and unfair. members of indie governments are perfectly capable of making the decisions that work for their region, and acting as if their connections with raiders are something that you need to save them from or convince them away from is disingenuous.

you wanna know how you get an indie region to like you?

by respecting them and appreciating them for what they are. by forming legitimate cultural bonds with them. by interacting respectfully even when you disagree with one of their policies. certainly not by publicly treating them like a work-in-progress instead of an equal.

TL has not stated that we feel independent regions are incapable of making their own decisions that work for them. As has been stated, we have been working to further connections with independent regions culturally and militarily so encourage more collaboration. Nobody has implied any independent partners are a "work in progress" as a region, that's a complete mischaracterization of the stated objective of working closer with independents when our interests align, which we hope to see more frequently in the picture.

If TCB has a problem with any commentary or policy, they may reach out to us and we will seek to address it as much as possible. TCB is always welcome to further our military and cultural collaboration where our interests aligned. That has never not been the case. Nobody in TL has treated our independent partners as less than an equal.

We quite like Thaecia and it seems like they quite us (nor have either of us been disrespectful to each other in instances of disagreement), so I'm not sure if we need to be "educated" on how to get an indie region to like us, that snippet seems more condescending than anything we've said.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I would like a citation on any League member representing the government saying that they view TCB as raider aligned, especially in the context of the Director's message. We've said the opposite, in fact. Your deliberate decision to ignore that is not our problem.

If TCB has a problem with any commentary or wants clarification, they are more than welcome to reach out to us as per usual. You are not TCB, you are in fact one of the (unfortunately) returned leaders/figures of two organizations we are in perpetual conflict with. Nobody actually believes you're engaging in good faith here.

Are you saying that you do not consider TCB's participation in TMC as something potentially nearing:

regions that have consistently and decidedly supported griefing and destruction based operations relentlessly

if it's more than a one-off?

Because you've called that op griefing. I mean, 2+2=4 here, Queb.

Moving on from the points to a character attack is a nice try though! =)

If you want to engage TCB, you could try responding directly to their MoFA with something better than a fancy "your concerns are overblown, and you can feel free to contact us as usual," as one suggestion. As a "relic," I don't mind helping the newer players.

especially against a relic hiding behind a switcher.

Do you and W&S really think "Souls posted from the RO nation he has logged in on his phone during the workday" is some huge gotcha? pfft.

[Pajonia]

I understand that people are trying really hard to bait Tirol into saying indies are raiders within the first couple hours of being on the job, but he’s smarter than that. Raider aligned doesn’t refer to regions like Thaecia, Europeia, or Balder for example who do raid in some circumstances, etc. It refers to regions that have consistently and decidedly supported griefing and destruction based operations relentlessly. That’s my stance as both a head of state and as LDF commander, so quit trying to coax something else out of us.

Hm, I find it disheartening and suspicious that you didn't include TCB in that list....

[Quebecshire]

Hm, I find it disheartening and suspicious that you didn't include TCB in that list....

Apologies for that error, I addressed it on the previous page when it was brought up by a member of malice.
Also relevant to that:

...The PRAF's existence is a fairly new development and one we have wished TCB the best in, as seen by introducing their leadership to Libcord, et cetera. There is still a lot to be seen, but two things are for certain. One, we do not view TCB as fitting the criteria described by our Director (otherwise the treaty would have been repealed by now), and two, we do not violate our standing agreements.

There remains a lot to be seen with the PRAF as it develops and we have no problems being patient in observing its direction and how our relationship with TCB can be best approached or necessarily adjusted as time goes on and things become more settled.

[RiderSyl]

I don't think Quebec knew he was replying to TCB's MoFA above, to be entirely fair. At least it didn't read like he did.

EDIT: There were 3 new posts by the time I said this?! This thread is moving fast!

[Spode Humbled Minions]

4) TCB is founderless.

I retire to bask under the sunlamp for less then a day, and now we have a raider in our GP thread doing bad fortunetelling about how TL's foreign policy will led to a final showdown over the delegacy of TCB- Which honestly sounds like a great premise for like... NS fanfiction, but I digress.

Imagine how you'd react if we did. Go ahead, imagine it.

I don't have to imagine, I can just wait until it happens and then watch. Time is a flat circle in R/D.


*goes back to basking under sunlamp while eating pasta*

[New Astri]

okay i screwed up the quote codes somehow because my forum is shitting itself when i try to send the message with quotes in it so i'm just gonna manually copy the text in bc i wanna respond quickly instead of troubleshooting what i did wrong w/ the bbcode. head in hands i'm a great second minister/mofa and a terrible forum user

pajonia: Hm, I find it disheartening and suspicious that you didn't include TCB in that list....
quebecshire: Apologies for that error, I addressed it on the previous page when it was brought up by a member of malice.

you didn't "address" anything, you just got sarcastic with the person who pointed it out. to quote:

cristo verde: A statement that pointedly doesn't name the treaty ally of yours currently supporting an operation you've already decided is "griefing," and only names those at your back on the lib.
quebecshire: Sorry that I missed one region while writing something on my way to the car? I'm sure the world will go on.

extremely interesting to see you pull out the sarcastic "i'm sure the world will go on" when not speaking to TCB and then only bringing out the apologies when you realize TCB's government is in the room :meh: and i honestly don't believe it was just a little typo, i think it was reflecting your beliefs about tcb on a deeper level. as souls said, you only named regions supporting your current military operation, and excluded your ally who's not on the same page as you regarding that op. that very much lines up with the unpleasant implications TL has been making towards TCB in this thread.

[Witchcraft and Sorcery]

I know you did though

nope, and i didn’t read the rest of your response here either. i can’t read anything more than a couple lines of text without significant effort these days thanks to a worsening strabismus. so thank you for separating this out so i could snipe it.

I have little patience (or ability) for trying to decipher that which I can already guess. and your playbook hasn’t changed in years, dude.

get unpredictable and maybe ill consider spending more effort. hell, you could quit raiding and find a better way to spend your time than kicking people’s sandcastles and blaming it on the people trying to stop you. just an idea idk.

[Reventus Koth]

I know you did though

nope, and i didn’t read the rest of your response here either. i can’t read anything more than a couple lines of text without significant effort these days thanks to a worsening strabismus. so thank you for separating this out so i could snipe it.

I have little patience (or ability) for trying to decipher that which I can already guess. and your playbook hasn’t changed in years, dude.

get unpredictable and maybe ill consider spending more effort. hell, you could quit raiding and find a better way to spend your time than kicking people’s sandcastles and blaming it on the people trying to stop you. just an idea idk.

How would you know that his playbook hasn't changed if you aren't reading his posts?

Anyway, "I didn't read a few lines of text in this primarily text-based environment but I want to share my thoughts anyway" isn't the chad move you think it is.

[Tim]

ps don't try and bait our FA director into saying TCB is a raider region in his first few hours in the job

Look, if two of your guys need to publicly ask for people to stop making the new FA guy do their job, you might need to admit they're not ready for the big leagues. For as much as defenders like to bash on TBH FA, in the last few posts even, you never see us asking for a handicap. Imagine how you'd react if we did. Go ahead, imagine it.

With all due respect, you guys totally tried to play off Miravana's FA missteps as 'innocence via ignorance'. Just because you're back around to keep TBH FA in line doesn't mean y'all don't have a track record of moving goalposts.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I know you did though

nope, and i didn’t read the rest of your response here either. i can’t read anything more than a couple lines of text without significant effort these days thanks to a worsening strabismus. so thank you for separating this out so i could snipe it.

I have little patience (or ability) for trying to decipher that which I can already guess. and your playbook hasn’t changed in years, dude.

get unpredictable and maybe ill consider spending more effort. hell, you could quit raiding and find a better way to spend your time than kicking people’s sandcastles and blaming it on the people trying to stop you. just an idea idk.

Well, if you want to insist that you're really, 100%, absolutely sticking your fingers in your ears and going "la la la I can't hear you," and just "sniping" lazily and telling me to quit, so be it. Not sure how pointedly refusing to defend your own plentiful lines of writing helps you argue your case, though.