The League & Concord | Still Here.

by **Lyoa** » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:39 pm

Faroic wrote:Seeing these threads, I'm just glad I left the realms of toxicity, hate and arrogance: the LCN.

You’re in no position to make a statement considering your grievance with us is that we didn’t give you the position of FAD.

by **Greater Sacramento** » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:50 pm

I'm honestly sick of this victimizing behavior. Not one LGBTQ member or religious/racial minority has complained about anything relating to racism and homophobia since this started. Really all you have been doing is giving us a headache since alot of us are government officials in the LCN government and we have had to deal with this and watch it happen. We just want to go back to role playing and being with our fellow region mates who are our friends. We just want to vc with each other while we go on walks, and just hanging out all worry free that we aren't being slandered. I've know Quebecshire for longer than I have known most of my real life friends and the same can be said for so many other people in the region. This is my family and I'm not gonna watch it just be slandered all the time.

by **The Noble Thatcherites** » Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:21 pm

Gagium wrote:
The Noble Thatcherites wrote:Take as long as you need, Quebec. I know it takes a long time to form an argument in favor of racist, homophobic, and ableist slurs. I'll wait.

The definition of a slur is "a derogatory or insulting term applied to particular group of people"..Interestingly enough, slurs, i.e. insulting terms meant to demean an entire group of people, are banned from the League of Conservative Nations.

I'm glad that you found a dictionary. Now check these two lists for the n slur and f slur which appear 626 and 96 times respectively on your server, document them, and go delete them.

"List of ethnic slurs" on Wikipedia
"List of LGBT-related slurs" on Wikipedia

Gagium wrote:On the other hand.."ableist slurs"? Are you kidding me?

Do you seriously not understand the problem with abelist slurs?

Check this list and delete all mentions of the r word from your server.

"List of disability-related terms that developed negative connotations" on Wikipedia

Greater Sacramento wrote:I'm honestly sick of this victimizing behavior. Not one LGBTQ member or religious/racial minority has complained about anything relating to racism and homophobia since this started. Really all you have been doing is giving us a headache since alot of us are government officials in the LCN government and we have had to deal with this and watch it happen. We just want to go back to role playing and being with our fellow region mates who are our friends. We just want to vc with each other while we go on walks, and just hanging out all worry free that we aren't being slandered. I've know Quebecshire for longer than I have known most of my real life friends and the same can be said for so many other people in the region. This is my family and I'm not gonna watch it just be slandered all the time.

Playing the victim is a good move but it won't get you anywhere. If you think its tiring having to defend racist, homophobic, and ableist slurs just imagine how exhausting it has to be explaining to people why using racial, LGBT, and ableist slurs is problematic. If you don't want to be bothered for the problematic culture and moderation policies on your server than you may want to consider joining a community that accepts the content allowed on your server. Racism and homophobia have no place in NS gameplay.

Edit: Links removed.

by **Gagium** » Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:40 pm

by **Terranihil** » Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:45 pm

Once again, the minority groups you claim to be defending are supportive of our moderation policy.

The New Fandom Republic, a black man, decided our moderation policy on the n-word; he suggested the "hard r" word be completely banned (which it is) and that the other form of the word ending in "a" be allowed as long as used in a non-hateful way.

Are we really expected to tell Fandom: "actually, despite being black yourself, your view on the n-word is wrong, and us non-black people know what is best for the safety of black people"?

by **Greater Sacramento** » Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:47 pm

The Noble Thatcherites wrote:
Greater Sacramento wrote:I'm honestly sick of this victimizing behavior. Not one LGBTQ member or religious/racial minority has complained about anything relating to racism and homophobia since this started. Really all you have been doing is giving us a headache since alot of us are government officials in the LCN government and we have had to deal with this and watch it happen. We just want to go back to role playing and being with our fellow region mates who are our friends. We just want to vc with each other while we go on walks, and just hanging out all worry free that we aren't being slandered. I've know Quebecshire for longer than I have known most of my real life friends and the same can be said for so many other people in the region. This is my family and I'm not gonna watch it just be slandered all the time.
Playing the victim is a good move but it won't get you anywhere.

How am I playing the victim, you guys are the ones who brought all of this up out of no where and are giving us the head ache.

The Noble Thatcherites wrote:If you think its tiring having to defend racist, homophobic, and ableist slurs just imagine how exhausting it has to be explaining to people why using racial, LGBT, and ableist slurs is problematic. If you don't want to be bothered for the problematic culture and moderation policies on your server than you may want to consider joining a community that accepts the content allowed on your server. Racism and homophobia have no place in NS gameplay.

Edit: Links removed.

What has been happening has not harmed or offended anyone ever since the Caezar incident in which a lot of people supported me to getting him removed. The only thing that has been happening is people looking to get offended by these things. And also Racism and homophobia have a big place in NS. There are regions who are actively homophobic and racist yet the region harboring a gay Muslim as someone who has and is serving in multiple high ranking positions in said region is getting picked at.

by **Quebecshire** » Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:27 pm

Terranihil wrote:Once again, the minority groups you claim to be defending are supportive of our moderation policy.

The New Fandom Republic, a black man, decided our moderation policy on the n-word; he suggested the "hard r" word be completely banned (which it is) and that the other form of the word ending in "a" be allowed as long as used in a non-hateful way.

Are we really expected to tell Fandom: "actually, despite being black yourself, your view on the n-word is wrong, and us non-black people know what is best for the safety of black people"?

Yes, we are. Because according to their logic, marginalized groups only get to define the slurs for themselves when it aligns to what they want. Case and point being the claim that the two spellings of the n word are equally bad. Fandom said pretty clearly that he feels himself and other members of his community believe that there’s a huge difference because use, connotation, and intent between the two versions.

by **The New Fandom Republic** » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:01 pm

Hate having to invoke this as I am a very firm believer in merit and personality being the two major factors in determining likability but as a multiracial bisexual autistic man, I have had no problems getting into one of the highest positions of power one can have in this region. From day one I have been treated with respect,kindness and comradely when I have reciprocated the same and at appropriate times. I and several others with similar backgrounds have had no problems within this region we call home due to our race, sexuality or religion.

Quebec and I go back quite awhile, we haven't seen eye to eye on some things. I've blown up with anger at him at times and vice versa and not even then did he ever use my identity against me. I'm honestly getting sick and tired of having to bite my tongue because y'all are dragging my friend's name in the mud and it hurts me so deeply to see someone I deeply respect and who I am sure reciprocates the feeling being treated in such a way.

Quebec has helped me with pretty much every bill I've authored, he has come to me and several others with similar backgrounds for advice multiple times and I freaking met the guy in real life and he treated me like one of the boys cause well I am. He's not racist in the slightest, he just says things that get the stupidest of people riled up whilst normal people don't even find a problem with it. I don't care if you're offended he or anyone who moderates for that matter missed one itty bit of racism and I certainly don't care if you snark and act like y'all are geniuses with a noble background on this thread when in reality you have typed nothing of true substance or any actual screenshots of our public chat.

Those of you who keep claiming we're racist or we're not good at "having a safe community". We have had two problematic consuls,the highest level of office within our region be removed for their behavior. We might slip up at times but those times are rare. I will not standby while those who try to undermine our region's ability to hold ourselves to account go unchallenged. Y'all really know nothing about us and I'd suggest leaving us alone if we're SOOO terrible.

by **Spode Humbled Minions** » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:33 pm

The Noble Thatcherites wrote:I would not normally entertain a post like this with a response, however, I cannot allow novice regional administrators to follow this ordeal and come to the conclusion that the community backlash to how the LCN handled concerns brought to them is the sole, inevitable, or normal outcome when confronted over administrative issues.

How Quebecshire masterfully deflected concerns brought to him needs to be the textbook for how not to handle administrative issues. Novice administrators must know that there are ways to responsibly handle administrative issues that remain faithful to the mandate that regional administrators have to keep their respective communities safe.

When concerns over the culture and administration of the LCN Discord server were brought forward, Quebecshire constructed elaborate defenses, using his gift for argument to minimize the details of the concerns brought forward, deflect responsibility for the safety of his community, engage in whataboutism, and paint an unrealistic and idealized portrait of the state of his region. Quebecshire refused to consider that no community is without its flaws and that there may be a problem with the culture that he has fostered.

Granted, it would have been ideal for each bulleted concern to be brought to Quebecshire at one time in a private direct message. However, concerns were privately brought to Quebecshire by administrators and, instead of engaging in a constructive dialogue, Quebecshire forfeited the mandate that regional administrators have to maintain a safe environment and defended the behavior^{[See Note]}. Instead of putting his mandate first, Quebecshire staved off serious complaints.

Regions like the LCN that have been around for many years, headed by a player of 4 years, are expected to be proactive in keeping their community safe. And while approaching serious concerns with caution is a positive trait, regional administrators must have a mentality of embracing concerns when they are brought forward, even when such concerns deal with their own behavior.

The onus for maintaining a safe community is not on members outside of a given community. Excuses such as “the police reports channel seems to be lacking a lot of reports about safety concerns” (Link) aren’t acceptable when administrative bodies are expected to be proactive and critically analyze concerns that are brought forward both publicly and privately. If people take time out of their day to bring concerns forward such concerns probably deserve thought.

It may hurt when you hear a concern about a community that you are proud of. It will not feel good or be easy every time you make an administrative decision and it is possible that people in your community will be upset. It is not easy to admit that a new policy should have existed before and that behavior in the past is now unacceptable, even if you engaged in that behavior yourself. Administrators must be pliable with the resolve to remain true to their mission.

Quebecshire pointed to the array of accusations against the LCN and painted them as inconsistent and simply that of resentful players simply grasping at straws.

"People with this attitude and mindset are also never going to be happy. No matter what we say, do, or prove, they will come up with another reason to judge us. First, it was changing moderation rules. Then, it became "perm[a]ban people more easily." Then, it became don't give trials to people who break certain types of rules, even if they're a citizen (which requires changing the Constitution).” (Link)

When players make claims criticizing the LCN for a lack of OOC administration these claims are consistent and point towards properly administering a region.

Many regions, mine included, start out with an IC regional government that also handles OOC administration. Such is not usually an issue, however, putting a politically motivated IC regional government in charge of the safety of a community is problematic for many reasons.

Regional governments are highly social and usually politically oriented. Players will place their own needs above those of the community in order to advance politically. Regional governments usually divide power, inhibiting them from acting quickly during an emergency. Additionally, the slow judicial process can allow harassment and other bad behavior to continue while the process runs its course. The lack of a clearly defined regional administration with an explicit mission to keep the region, its property, and community safe can result in a lack of action as other institutions do not have a mandate to take action. Additionally, the lack of a chain of administrators means that the community cannot hold a player or group of players to account for maintaining safety.

Regions usually move to separate the IC regional government from the role of OOC administration once problems become evident within the community. Such should have been the case for the LCN. It is positive to listen to the experiences of other regional administrators, especially those with 10+ years of experience such as the members of the Europeian administrative team, often considered the gold standard in investigating and enforcing common-sense administrative policies. In my time as a player I have discovered that an OOC administrative team is the best system for keeping a community safe. If I learn of another system that works more effectively towards this aim I will embrace it and transition my region to that system.

If concerns are brought to you as an administrator, handle them with care, listen to victims, investigate carefully, publish your findings safely offsite, and enforce common-sense administrative standards. Sensible members of the NSGP community should commend and support such behavior. When regions terminate relations and demolish embassies it is not blackmailing. Regions must use diplomatic and social pressure to ensure that NationStates is a site free of racism and homophobia.

I am sure that Quebecshire will once again amaze us with his ability to defend how he actively fosters abhorrent behavior and that is fine. I just hope that this post will help novice regional administrators understand what went wrong here and responsibly handle concerns brought to them.

-----
My purpose for including links to quoted or mentioned materials is not to further antagonize the LCN but to corroborate such materials as I have been accused of false claims throughout this ordeal.

Note: In regards to the first screenshot, it is not the LCNs moderation policy to delete “ironic” and “non hard-r” usages of the n slur.

Edit: One of the links was messed up, fixed.

Okay, let's do this the way you like.

Case #1
Here is what is brought to your attention as an administrator-
A member of your discord server has this as their discord status:
"Buy the dip :chart_with_upwards_trend: f----t"
Step 1 - Handle with care
Quebec told SCI after this happened that he should probably change his status

Step 2 - Listen to victims

Step 3 - Investigate carefully
*hmmm*
it appears that SCI's status was indeed ""Buy the dip :chart_with_upwards_trend: f----t""

Step 4 - Publish findings safely offsite
Okay, done. Why isn't it here? Because it was in a private chat for the LPF, who act as OOC administrators for the LCN on discord.

Step 5 - Enforce common-sense administrative standards
Strawman McGee: Should we permanently ban SCI, a fellow member of the community, for having his status have the word f----t in it?
Our entire community: No that's dumb

Case #2
As an administrator, you are presented with someone coming forward with the concern that someone called someone else the n-word and was not warned.
Step 1 - Handle with care
Quebec's response to this was "Uh cuz everyone here hates him". This was not handled with care

Step 2 - Listen to victims
Nagarno isn't on this website at the moment (to my knowledge), and even if he was, I'm not going to give a platform to a man who has openly stated that he opposes "alien races destroying the west" to cry about being called the n-word.

Step 3 - Investigate carefully
A review into the incident was conducted. The actions of Quebec as a moderator and of the original poster were both out of line with LCN moderation guidelines.

Step 4 - Publish findings safely offsite
This too was resolved, in part in the LPF chat, in part on the forums with Quebec admitting he screwed up.

Step 5 - Enforce common-sense administrative standards
Since the new Mee6 moderation bot came online, if you try to post the n-word, your message will automatically be deleted and your account will be given a warning. Something I failed to mention in past posts is that repeat offenders can find themselves on "special protocols", which enables LPF officers to use mutes, tempkicks, and tempbans on earlier offences.

Case #3
As an administrator, someone from another region approaches you and reports a member of your discord has been engaging in sexual harassment.
Step 1 - Handle with care
The case was handled in private backchannels. Jokes about the banning were removed from public channels.

Step 2 - Listen to victims
This was done.

Step 3 - Investigate carefully
The area where the misconduct took place was ripped apart, and everything documented (as there was an operating assumption that this might need to go to the authorities)

Step 4 - Publish findings safely offsite
This step was done.

Step 5 - Enforce common-sense administrative standards
User permanently banned from all platforms under administrative control, warning sent out to other regions.

So based on that, it seems we have both the OOC institutions and protocols in place to handle rule-breaking behaviors, and should be "commended" (except no, even if the LCN was completely perfect in every way, it's been made pretty clear to me that NSGP is basically sentient entropy and drawing its attention will only result in negative things happening).

So obviously there's a disconnect between what you hold to be the model of regional moderation and the LCN. Is it....

A lack of reporting/proactive measures(?)
Punishments(?)
or
The fact that non-rulebreaking racist/homophobic words are allowed(?)

Because to put it simply, a bunch of this trying to save face 'i'm just posting this for the novice administrators' nonsense or basically everything I've tried posting so far has done zilch in trying to actually solve this issue.

You can't say that you don't care and then show up in our discord server in the middle of the night like a sleep paralysis demon

You can be from all seven continents and be an LCNer, you can be any sexuality/gender and be an LCNer, you can have any color of skin and be an LCNer. We have others who chill on our server (marked stayer and diplomat respectively) around, and we will provide the level of moderation stated in our server rules to ALL of them. Our server is also public, and members of the public are welcome to give it a bit of inspection if they'd like, just check the WFE*

*Unless you're a trashy person who thinks you're real slick sliding into customs and spamming T R A S H & C R I N J in which case you will get either banned, goosed, and if you're persistent about it, both.

Yeah.

by **Quebecshire** » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:48 pm

I'm probably gonna get accused of tokenism or doing the NS version of saying "I have a black friend," but I got some statistics. Read to the end for the point.

The Consulate, the region's judiciary, which makes sure laws and rules fit the Constitution and are just, and makes server rules with LPF advisory, has one racial minority (Terry, Syrian).

The LPF, the moderating body of the server and RMB, with significant influence in choosing rules, is headed by a racial minority (Amaan, Pakistani). The LPF has six officers. Three of the six are racial minorities (Amaan is Pakistani, Fandom is African American, and Creeperopolis is Hispanic). There is also one LGBT and one autistic member, Fandom being both those in addition to African American. My point is coming, stick to the end.

Our Defense Administration (composed of the armed forces and intel agency), responsible for ensuring security, is headed by an African American (Fandom), and the Armed Forces is headed by a Hispanic (Creeper).

The Council, the region's legislature, which makes the laws and can motion other rule changes, has eleven members. Four of which are racial minorities (Creeper is hispanic, Fandom is African American, Amaan is Pakistani, and Sacramento is Punjabi). There are also two LGBT members to my knowledge (Fandom and Sacramento).

We also have plenty of others of minority groups who may not hold higher offices or aren't super active anymore.

Now, the point isn't that all of this means anything on it's own, otherwise, that would be actual tokenism. But I have some questions,

a) If the minorities of the LCN had a problem with the policies regarding offensive terms that many of them had a hand in creating, would they not use their posts to encourage that change?
b) If the LCN was unsafe for minorities, why would they choose to remain active and involved here? Like, why would they be such a prominent part of our regional community???
c) If the LCN was so racist and homophobic, why would we give posts of significant responsibility and authority to ethnic and sexual minorities??? Oh yeah, cuz they're productive and happily involved members of the community.
d) Who is more credible on the subject of safety on our server? The people (and in this case, minorities) who are active and involved in it, or you, someone who isn't even on it, and someone who wasn't active nor involved when you were?

by **Quebecshire** » Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:45 pm

So one of the accusations from The Noble Thatcherites and some other NSGPers is that we somehow are inferior at moderating because of our "in character trials," which we literally don't do.

This will be a response to that incredibly stupid accusation, as well as address some other stupid accusations that may come up after.

Opening Notes

Regions on NationStates, unless they're exclusively RP regions or run by really new players who don't really know what is going on, are almost always out of character in any context other than roleplays, from what I understand. Regional laws are really just codified rules about how players are to behave in a region, and how people will run that region. The only time, in my opinion, in which someone steps into a character, are for roleplay.

With that line of thinking, a regional trial for a lawbreaking or rulebreaking isn't really in character. It's just assessing if what they did broke the rules, and then picking a course of action based on that. Nobody steps into a character for it. You might have a job within it, judging the actions, defending someone, or being accused of doing something wrong, but that's as yourself, not stepping into a character. It's just procedure for handling alleged wrongdoing, which isn't roleplay unless it's already within one. Simple existence of procedure, and following it, does not make anything in character.

How is LCN moderation and law/rule enforcement structured, how does it work?

Reminder that regional laws are really just writing down how things are meant to go, putting rules in strong codification. So let's look at LCN law (which applies to everything under LCN jurisdiction, mainly, the region itself and Discord Server ) and the server-rules (which apply to the Discord server).

First, the Constitution of the LCN. This says what persons in the region have the right to do or not to do (make specific note of allowing free speech so long as it abides by the rules of the platform you're using), and specifies how the region is to be managed, and under how circumstances and through what abilities that management can be devolved or expanded.

So, on to the LCN Lawbook, which contains the laws inferior to the Constitution. I am specifically referring to CRL#17, An Act to Clarify and Establish Definition of Prosecution in Law Enforcement, which enables the LPF (moderators) to pursue penalties more severe than simple warns and mutes on the server. It also enables the Defense Administration to pursue penalties for breaking things written in the lawbook, but that's less relevant to what some NSGPers are complaining about.

So, the League's Police Force (literally an organized moderator staff, just with a name, which, by the way, doesn't make it in character), how do they factor in? Well, they warn people for breaking the server rules (in spoiler below)...

These don't seem like rules that have anything to do with being "in character," so why would the enforcement of them somehow be in character then? Spoiler alert, it isn't. Organization and procedure doesn't make it in character.

OOC vs IC Trials? Does the LCN have IC trials for rulebreakers?

An example of an IC trial, one in which we stepped into character, is the "Trial of Alyosha Karamazov," which you can find a summary and transcript for using the hyperlink over the name. This trial had nothing to do with LCN law or rules, it was about a criminal in the fictional country of Morova in the Terraconserva Roleplay. It had nothing to do with OOC rule violations.

An example of an OOC trial, in which no characters were involved, was Defense Administration V Doge Republics, in which we were attempting to determine if the alleged actions of a player, the person operating the account, violated our written laws, which are literally rules. No characters involved, simply someone being accused to something, and us giving both sides the opportunity to argue. Examples of parts of the trial (the opening, statement of allegations, and ending) are below.

That's procedure to evaluate allegations. Not stepping into character. It is entirely out of character. Evaluating an issue with care and allowing both sides of an issue to assert why something should be punished or not punished in one way or another is not stepping into a character.

So no, the LCN does not have in character trials for those who break regional laws, server rules, or whatever other out of character stipulations.

Responses to Things I Anticipate Being Said Next

"But that's not out of character!"

Yes, it is.
"Most regions do it a different way or don't have a trial at all for certain things!"

Tough shit. Our Constitution says citizens get a trial. I don't care if other regions do it a different way and I don't think my region-mates do very much either. Our region, our procedures, our Constitution.
"You shouldn't give trials to people who harass others or do other X thing I don't like!"

If someone is harassing someone and they haven't ragequit the region for being muted or tempbanned from the server and it does go to trial (don't think a case like this ever has), then the person would be muted from all other channels and ideally blocked by the victim. We will however, still give them a fair hearing, while at the same time taking the victim's assertions very seriously, as we have with all instances of possibly discrimination on our server.

"You'd be forcing the victim to interact with their harasser via the trial!"

Nope, that'd be an incredibly stupid accusation but I wouldn't put it past some people, so I'm including it. The LPF or DA can appoint someone to represent their argument and so can the accused, so the victim interacting with the harasser would be extremely moderated (via the Consulate and LPF in the court channel) and entirely optional.

by **Boda** » Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:53 pm

Can we end this drama pls? Thx.

by **Kanjuura** » Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:11 pm

Boda wrote:Can we end this drama pls? Thx.

I wish

by **Quebecshire** » Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:12 pm

Boda wrote:Can we end this drama pls? Thx.

I'm down. Honestly, I'd love to just chill and talk flags and stuff on NSGP like I did last night. It's chill when it's not rageposting time.

by **Quebecshire** » Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:13 pm

Kanjuura wrote:
Boda wrote:Can we end this drama pls? Thx.

I wish

Huh, when the flag change? I guess I haven't looked at your NS profile in awhile. Cuz you're cringe for not RPing smh.

by **Kanjuura** » Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:17 pm

Quebecshire wrote:
Kanjuura wrote:I wish

Huh, when the flag change? I guess I haven't looked at your NS profile in awhile. Cuz you're cringe for not RPing smh.

Wasn't in the RP anymore so I decided a change was in order

by **Iris and Metis** » Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:43 am

Btw, the people you're referring to within a 'racial minority' category appears to be any non-Caucasian - i.e. not a minority of any sort on a global game.

It sounds like some of your region have some learning to do, and it looks like you have some people with alternative perspectives within the region who could help with that. But my point before is that lashing out at anyone who looks down on you is the easy option, but better people wrestle with the underlying concerns in a more genuine way.

That said...

Not one LGBTQ member or religious/racial minority has complained about anything relating to racism and homophobia since this started.

This is a gross argument, the rest of this wider community functions without anyone feeling the need to use racist or homophobic terms. Dig your heels in if you want, but expect yourself to be firmly spurned by everyone else.

Attempted suicide is significantly higher amongst LGBT+ and allowing your community to use their identity as an insult continues to fuel the attitudes that have led to those figures. You don't know who has suffered in silence in your community, you don't know who has walked away and taken that pain with them and you don't know how your community normalising that sort of language has impacted people outside of this game. I don't see how any reasonable human being could weigh that up against their desire to use a certain term and think the latter is more important.

That is why people give a shit here, because at the end of the day all the IC stuff, insults and flexing don't matter one bit - and peoples lives and mental health are so much more important.

by **Greater Sacramento** » Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:59 am

Iris and Metis wrote:Btw, the people you're referring to within a 'racial minority' category appears to be any non-Caucasian - i.e. not a minority of any sort on a global game.

It sounds like some of your region have some learning to do, and it looks like you have some people with alternative perspectives within the region who could help with that. But my point before is that lashing out at anyone who looks down on you is the easy option, but better people wrestle with the underlying concerns in a more genuine way.

That said...

Not one LGBTQ member or religious/racial minority has complained about anything relating to racism and homophobia since this started.

This is a gross argument, the rest of this wider community functions without anyone feeling the need to use racist or homophobic terms. Dig your heels in if you want, but expect yourself to be firmly spurned by everyone else.

Attempted suicide is significantly higher amongst LGBT+ and allowing your community to use their identity as an insult continues to fuel the attitudes that have led to those figures. You don't know who has suffered in silence in your community, you don't know who has walked away and taken that pain with them and you don't know how your community normalising that sort of language has impacted people outside of this game. I don't see how any reasonable human being could weigh that up against their desire to use a certain term and think the latter is more important.

That is why people give a shit here, because at the end of the day all the IC stuff, insults and flexing don't matter one bit - and peoples lives and mental health are so much more important.

You really want to go there? I have attempted suicide before because of my identity. Why? Because I was a victim of actual homophobia outside of NS. This region by no means has made me want to kill myself, what has is homophobia I have had to suffer through in the real world. I went to people in this region when I was thinking about killing myself and they helped when no one else was there for me. The community is here for anyone in this region no matter their race, religion, or sexuality. Are regions in NS homophobic sometimes? Yes there are but are we one of those regions? No. We have stated multiple times if someone does not like it they can tell the relevant authorities but we do not have to cater to people outside of our region who are getting offended on our behalf.

by **Amaan Land** » Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:01 am

Faroic wrote:Seeing these threads, I'm just glad I left the realms of toxicity, hate and arrogance: the LCN.

Denver you literally left because you didn’t get a job you weren’t qualified for and you refused to admit that you gave yourself and unofficial title which you thought meant you ran the FA department

by **Quebecshire** » Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:55 am

Greater Sacramento wrote:
Iris and Metis wrote:Btw, the people you're referring to within a 'racial minority' category appears to be any non-Caucasian - i.e. not a minority of any sort on a global game.

It sounds like some of your region have some learning to do, and it looks like you have some people with alternative perspectives within the region who could help with that. But my point before is that lashing out at anyone who looks down on you is the easy option, but better people wrestle with the underlying concerns in a more genuine way.

That said...

This is a gross argument, the rest of this wider community functions without anyone feeling the need to use racist or homophobic terms. Dig your heels in if you want, but expect yourself to be firmly spurned by everyone else.

Attempted suicide is significantly higher amongst LGBT+ and allowing your community to use their identity as an insult continues to fuel the attitudes that have led to those figures. You don't know who has suffered in silence in your community, you don't know who has walked away and taken that pain with them and you don't know how your community normalising that sort of language has impacted people outside of this game. I don't see how any reasonable human being could weigh that up against their desire to use a certain term and think the latter is more important.

That is why people give a shit here, because at the end of the day all the IC stuff, insults and flexing don't matter one bit - and peoples lives and mental health are so much more important.

You really want to go there? I have attempted suicide before because of my identity. Why? Because I was a victim of actual homophobia outside of NS. This region by no means has made me want to kill myself, what has is homophobia I have had to suffer through in the real world. I went to people in this region when I was thinking about killing myself and they helped when no one else was there for me. The community is here for anyone in this region no matter their race, religion, or sexuality. Are regions in NS homophobic sometimes? Yes there are but are we one of those regions? No. We have stated multiple times if someone does not like it they can tell the relevant authorities but we do not have to cater to people outside of our region who are getting offended on our behalf.

Woah there Sac. Personal experiences of LGBT people (like the fact that you felt safer coming out to us before IRL both with converting to Islam and homosexuality) are only relevant when they align with the narrative of how bad we are.

by **Greater Sacramento** » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:00 am

Quebecshire wrote:
Greater Sacramento wrote:

You really want to go there? I have attempted suicide before because of my identity. Why? Because I was a victim of actual homophobia outside of NS. This region by no means has made me want to kill myself, what has is homophobia I have had to suffer through in the real world. I went to people in this region when I was thinking about killing myself and they helped when no one else was there for me. The community is here for anyone in this region no matter their race, religion, or sexuality. Are regions in NS homophobic sometimes? Yes there are but are we one of those regions? No. We have stated multiple times if someone does not like it they can tell the relevant authorities but we do not have to cater to people outside of our region who are getting offended on our behalf.

Woah there Sac. Personal experiences of LGBT people (like the fact that you felt safer coming out to us before IRL both with converting to Islam and homosexuality) are only relevant when they align with the narrative of how bad we are.

I also have internalized homophobia or something

by **Quebecshire** » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:03 am

Greater Sacramento wrote:
Quebecshire wrote:Woah there Sac. Personal experiences of LGBT people (like the fact that you felt safer coming out to us before IRL both with converting to Islam and homosexuality) are only relevant when they align with the narrative of how bad we are.

I also have internalized homophobia or something

Internalized homophobia is a thing, but I'd argue it takes the form of how Zion used to behave during like 2018 (citing Mormon doctrines as to why gay is bad).

You using a no no word while being ridiculously open about your sexuality is not "internalized homophobia" and anyone who argues that is being ridiculously patronizing.

by **Greater Sacramento** » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:08 am

Quebecshire wrote:
Greater Sacramento wrote:
I also have internalized homophobia or something

Internalized homophobia is a thing, but I'd argue it takes the form of how Zion used to behave during like 2018 (citing Mormon doctrines as to why gay is bad).

You using a no no word while being ridiculously open about your sexuality is not "internalized homophobia" and anyone who argues that is being ridiculously patronizing.

Oh yeah definitely. Internalized homophobia is a problem but 99% of the time you don't even know the person is gay yet I have mentioned it multiple times already.

by **Quebecshire** » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:10 am

Iris and Metis wrote:Btw, the people you're referring to within a 'racial minority' category appears to be any non-Caucasian - i.e. not a minority of any sort on a global game.

It's almost like I'm walking on eggshells because every time I effectively counter a point, something new is brought up against us.

Also, most of our racial minorities live in IRL contexts in which they are in fact, racial minorities. Terry and Sac (Syrian and Punjabi) live in America. Fandom (black) lives in America). Amaan (Pakistani) lives in Britain.

Iris and Metis wrote:It sounds like some of your region have some learning to do,

Oh yes, another sanctimonious speech. Do enlighten me.

Iris and Metis wrote:And it looks like you have some people with alternative perspectives within the region who could help with that.

Literally everyone from our region who was weighed in here agrees that Thatcher and some other NSGP people are spewing bullshit about our region. Which, they are.

Iris and Metis wrote:But my point before is that lashing out at anyone who looks down on you is the easy option, but better people wrestle with the underlying concerns in a more genuine way.

Just about every active member of the LCN treats the region like more than an NS region, an actual community of friends. We play plenty of other games together, have frequent voice calls, talk about serious IRL issues (including racism and homophobia, which you claim we don't take seriously), and some of us have literally met up IRL.

Iris and Metis wrote:That said...

Not one LGBTQ member or religious/racial minority has complained about anything relating to racism and homophobia since this started.

This is a gross argument, the rest of this wider community functions without anyone feeling the need to use racist or homophobic terms. Dig your heels in if you want, but expect yourself to be firmly spurned by everyone else.

How is that a gross argument? Are those of marginalized groups in the LCN not allowed to judge the safety of the LCN towards those groups? Oh wait, it's up to silent "diplomats" and outsiders who never met us.

Iris and Metis wrote:Attempted suicide is significantly higher amongst LGBT+ and allowing your community to use their identity as an insult continues to fuel the attitudes that have led to those figures. You don't know who has suffered in silence in your community, you don't know who has walked away and taken that pain with them and you don't know how your community normalising that sort of language has impacted people outside of this game. I don't see how any reasonable human being could weigh that up against their desire to use a certain term and think the latter is more important.

People are literally not allowed to use the term to target and insult LGBT members. As that would be, say it with me, discrimination and harassment, which is banned. Insult is to "speak to or treat with disrespect or scornful abuse." Joking around with someone when you both know it's joking and are both okay with it isn't insulting. Intent of the speaker and perception of the receiver both matter, and if both are positive, it is fine.

Also no shit LGBT people kill themselves a lot more than nonLGBT people. Maybe that would be lower if we focused on mental health resources and not petty things like this. There has not been a single LGBT person in this region who was not comfortable being open about their sexuality here. Sacramento came out to us before he did to people IRL both when he converted from Sikhism to Islam and when he came out as LGBT. But I forgot you don't actually know anything about this community.

Iris and Metis wrote:That is why people give a shit here, because at the end of the day all the IC stuff, insults and flexing don't matter one bit - and peoples lives and mental health are so much more important.

"I care about mental health, so I will encourage and sympathize with rhetoric that seeks or advocates the destruction of the community which has been incredibly supportive of its minority and LGBT members, many of whom put a lot of work into said community and are completely comfortable being open about their identities there."

Yeah, give me a break. You find your moral highground important.

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