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by Lyoa » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:39 pm
Faroic wrote:Seeing these threads, I'm just glad I left the realms of toxicity, hate and arrogance: the LCN.
by Greater Sacramento » Sat Jul 18, 2020 1:50 pm
by The Noble Thatcherites » Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:21 pm
I'm glad that you found a dictionary. Now check these two lists for the n slur and f slur which appear 626 and 96 times respectively on your server, document them, and go delete them.Gagium wrote:The Noble Thatcherites wrote:Take as long as you need, Quebec. I know it takes a long time to form an argument in favor of racist, homophobic, and ableist slurs. I'll wait.
The definition of a slur is "a derogatory or insulting term applied to particular group of people"..Interestingly enough, slurs, i.e. insulting terms meant to demean an entire group of people, are banned from the League of Conservative Nations.
Do you seriously not understand the problem with abelist slurs?Gagium wrote:On the other hand.."ableist slurs"? Are you kidding me?
Playing the victim is a good move but it won't get you anywhere. If you think its tiring having to defend racist, homophobic, and ableist slurs just imagine how exhausting it has to be explaining to people why using racial, LGBT, and ableist slurs is problematic. If you don't want to be bothered for the problematic culture and moderation policies on your server than you may want to consider joining a community that accepts the content allowed on your server. Racism and homophobia have no place in NS gameplay.Greater Sacramento wrote:I'm honestly sick of this victimizing behavior. Not one LGBTQ member or religious/racial minority has complained about anything relating to racism and homophobia since this started. Really all you have been doing is giving us a headache since alot of us are government officials in the LCN government and we have had to deal with this and watch it happen. We just want to go back to role playing and being with our fellow region mates who are our friends. We just want to vc with each other while we go on walks, and just hanging out all worry free that we aren't being slandered. I've know Quebecshire for longer than I have known most of my real life friends and the same can be said for so many other people in the region. This is my family and I'm not gonna watch it just be slandered all the time.
Kanglia wrote:Thatcher. Wants. As. Little. To. Do. With. You. All. As. Possible.
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by Terranihil » Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:45 pm
by Greater Sacramento » Sat Jul 18, 2020 2:47 pm
The Noble Thatcherites wrote:Playing the victim is a good move but it won't get you anywhere.Greater Sacramento wrote:I'm honestly sick of this victimizing behavior. Not one LGBTQ member or religious/racial minority has complained about anything relating to racism and homophobia since this started. Really all you have been doing is giving us a headache since alot of us are government officials in the LCN government and we have had to deal with this and watch it happen. We just want to go back to role playing and being with our fellow region mates who are our friends. We just want to vc with each other while we go on walks, and just hanging out all worry free that we aren't being slandered. I've know Quebecshire for longer than I have known most of my real life friends and the same can be said for so many other people in the region. This is my family and I'm not gonna watch it just be slandered all the time.
The Noble Thatcherites wrote:If you think its tiring having to defend racist, homophobic, and ableist slurs just imagine how exhausting it has to be explaining to people why using racial, LGBT, and ableist slurs is problematic. If you don't want to be bothered for the problematic culture and moderation policies on your server than you may want to consider joining a community that accepts the content allowed on your server. Racism and homophobia have no place in NS gameplay.
Edit: Links removed.
by Quebecshire » Sat Jul 18, 2020 3:27 pm
Terranihil wrote:Once again, the minority groups you claim to be defending are supportive of our moderation policy.
The New Fandom Republic, a black man, decided our moderation policy on the n-word; he suggested the "hard r" word be completely banned (which it is) and that the other form of the word ending in "a" be allowed as long as used in a non-hateful way.
Are we really expected to tell Fandom: "actually, despite being black yourself, your view on the n-word is wrong, and us non-black people know what is best for the safety of black people"?
Benevolent Thomas wrote:I founded a defender organization out of my dislike of invaders, what invading represents, and my desire to see them suffer.
Pergamon wrote:I must say, you are truly what they deserve.
by The New Fandom Republic » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:01 pm
by Spode Humbled Minions » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:33 pm
The Noble Thatcherites wrote:I would not normally entertain a post like this with a response, however, I cannot allow novice regional administrators to follow this ordeal and come to the conclusion that the community backlash to how the LCN handled concerns brought to them is the sole, inevitable, or normal outcome when confronted over administrative issues.
How Quebecshire masterfully deflected concerns brought to him needs to be the textbook for how not to handle administrative issues. Novice administrators must know that there are ways to responsibly handle administrative issues that remain faithful to the mandate that regional administrators have to keep their respective communities safe.
When concerns over the culture and administration of the LCN Discord server were brought forward, Quebecshire constructed elaborate defenses, using his gift for argument to minimize the details of the concerns brought forward, deflect responsibility for the safety of his community, engage in whataboutism, and paint an unrealistic and idealized portrait of the state of his region. Quebecshire refused to consider that no community is without its flaws and that there may be a problem with the culture that he has fostered.
Granted, it would have been ideal for each bulleted concern to be brought to Quebecshire at one time in a private direct message. However, concerns were privately brought to Quebecshire by administrators and, instead of engaging in a constructive dialogue, Quebecshire forfeited the mandate that regional administrators have to maintain a safe environment and defended the behavior[See Note]. Instead of putting his mandate first, Quebecshire staved off serious complaints.
Regions like the LCN that have been around for many years, headed by a player of 4 years, are expected to be proactive in keeping their community safe. And while approaching serious concerns with caution is a positive trait, regional administrators must have a mentality of embracing concerns when they are brought forward, even when such concerns deal with their own behavior.
The onus for maintaining a safe community is not on members outside of a given community. Excuses such as “the police reports channel seems to be lacking a lot of reports about safety concerns” (Link) aren’t acceptable when administrative bodies are expected to be proactive and critically analyze concerns that are brought forward both publicly and privately. If people take time out of their day to bring concerns forward such concerns probably deserve thought.
It may hurt when you hear a concern about a community that you are proud of. It will not feel good or be easy every time you make an administrative decision and it is possible that people in your community will be upset. It is not easy to admit that a new policy should have existed before and that behavior in the past is now unacceptable, even if you engaged in that behavior yourself. Administrators must be pliable with the resolve to remain true to their mission.
Quebecshire pointed to the array of accusations against the LCN and painted them as inconsistent and simply that of resentful players simply grasping at straws.
"People with this attitude and mindset are also never going to be happy. No matter what we say, do, or prove, they will come up with another reason to judge us. First, it was changing moderation rules. Then, it became "perm[a]ban people more easily." Then, it became don't give trials to people who break certain types of rules, even if they're a citizen (which requires changing the Constitution).” (Link)
When players make claims criticizing the LCN for a lack of OOC administration these claims are consistent and point towards properly administering a region.
Many regions, mine included, start out with an IC regional government that also handles OOC administration. Such is not usually an issue, however, putting a politically motivated IC regional government in charge of the safety of a community is problematic for many reasons.
Regional governments are highly social and usually politically oriented. Players will place their own needs above those of the community in order to advance politically. Regional governments usually divide power, inhibiting them from acting quickly during an emergency. Additionally, the slow judicial process can allow harassment and other bad behavior to continue while the process runs its course. The lack of a clearly defined regional administration with an explicit mission to keep the region, its property, and community safe can result in a lack of action as other institutions do not have a mandate to take action. Additionally, the lack of a chain of administrators means that the community cannot hold a player or group of players to account for maintaining safety.
Regions usually move to separate the IC regional government from the role of OOC administration once problems become evident within the community. Such should have been the case for the LCN. It is positive to listen to the experiences of other regional administrators, especially those with 10+ years of experience such as the members of the Europeian administrative team, often considered the gold standard in investigating and enforcing common-sense administrative policies. In my time as a player I have discovered that an OOC administrative team is the best system for keeping a community safe. If I learn of another system that works more effectively towards this aim I will embrace it and transition my region to that system.
If concerns are brought to you as an administrator, handle them with care, listen to victims, investigate carefully, publish your findings safely offsite, and enforce common-sense administrative standards. Sensible members of the NSGP community should commend and support such behavior. When regions terminate relations and demolish embassies it is not blackmailing. Regions must use diplomatic and social pressure to ensure that NationStates is a site free of racism and homophobia.
I am sure that Quebecshire will once again amaze us with his ability to defend how he actively fosters abhorrent behavior and that is fine. I just hope that this post will help novice regional administrators understand what went wrong here and responsibly handle concerns brought to them.
-----
My purpose for including links to quoted or mentioned materials is not to further antagonize the LCN but to corroborate such materials as I have been accused of false claims throughout this ordeal.
Note: In regards to the first screenshot, it is not the LCNs moderation policy to delete “ironic” and “non hard-r” usages of the n slur.
Edit: One of the links was messed up, fixed.
Case #1
Here is what is brought to your attention as an administrator-
A member of your discord server has this as their discord status:
"Buy the dip :chart_with_upwards_trend: f----t"Step 1 - Handle with care
Quebec told SCI after this happened that he should probably change his status
Step 2 - Listen to victims
Step 3 - Investigate carefully
*hmmm*
it appears that SCI's status was indeed ""Buy the dip :chart_with_upwards_trend: f----t""
Step 4 - Publish findings safely offsite
Okay, done. Why isn't it here? Because it was in a private chat for the LPF, who act as OOC administrators for the LCN on discord.
Step 5 - Enforce common-sense administrative standards
Strawman McGee: Should we permanently ban SCI, a fellow member of the community, for having his status have the word f----t in it?
Our entire community: No that's dumb
Case #2
As an administrator, you are presented with someone coming forward with the concern that someone called someone else the n-word and was not warned.Step 1 - Handle with care
Quebec's response to this was "Uh cuz everyone here hates him". This was not handled with care
Step 2 - Listen to victims
Nagarno isn't on this website at the moment (to my knowledge), and even if he was, I'm not going to give a platform to a man who has openly stated that he opposes "alien races destroying the west" to cry about being called the n-word.
Step 3 - Investigate carefully
A review into the incident was conducted. The actions of Quebec as a moderator and of the original poster were both out of line with LCN moderation guidelines.
Step 4 - Publish findings safely offsite
This too was resolved, in part in the LPF chat, in part on the forums with Quebec admitting he screwed up.
Step 5 - Enforce common-sense administrative standards
Since the new Mee6 moderation bot came online, if you try to post the n-word, your message will automatically be deleted and your account will be given a warning. Something I failed to mention in past posts is that repeat offenders can find themselves on "special protocols", which enables LPF officers to use mutes, tempkicks, and tempbans on earlier offences.
Case #3
As an administrator, someone from another region approaches you and reports a member of your discord has been engaging in sexual harassment.Step 1 - Handle with care
The case was handled in private backchannels. Jokes about the banning were removed from public channels.
Step 2 - Listen to victims
This was done.
Step 3 - Investigate carefully
The area where the misconduct took place was ripped apart, and everything documented (as there was an operating assumption that this might need to go to the authorities)
Step 4 - Publish findings safely offsite
This step was done.
Step 5 - Enforce common-sense administrative standards
User permanently banned from all platforms under administrative control, warning sent out to other regions.
by Quebecshire » Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:48 pm
Benevolent Thomas wrote:I founded a defender organization out of my dislike of invaders, what invading represents, and my desire to see them suffer.
Pergamon wrote:I must say, you are truly what they deserve.
by Quebecshire » Sat Jul 18, 2020 8:45 pm
Benevolent Thomas wrote:I founded a defender organization out of my dislike of invaders, what invading represents, and my desire to see them suffer.
Pergamon wrote:I must say, you are truly what they deserve.
by Quebecshire » Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:12 pm
Boda wrote:Can we end this drama pls? Thx.
Benevolent Thomas wrote:I founded a defender organization out of my dislike of invaders, what invading represents, and my desire to see them suffer.
Pergamon wrote:I must say, you are truly what they deserve.
by Quebecshire » Sat Jul 18, 2020 11:13 pm
Benevolent Thomas wrote:I founded a defender organization out of my dislike of invaders, what invading represents, and my desire to see them suffer.
Pergamon wrote:I must say, you are truly what they deserve.
by Iris and Metis » Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:43 am
Not one LGBTQ member or religious/racial minority has complained about anything relating to racism and homophobia since this started.
by Greater Sacramento » Sun Jul 19, 2020 3:59 am
Iris and Metis wrote:Btw, the people you're referring to within a 'racial minority' category appears to be any non-Caucasian - i.e. not a minority of any sort on a global game.
It sounds like some of your region have some learning to do, and it looks like you have some people with alternative perspectives within the region who could help with that. But my point before is that lashing out at anyone who looks down on you is the easy option, but better people wrestle with the underlying concerns in a more genuine way.
That said...Not one LGBTQ member or religious/racial minority has complained about anything relating to racism and homophobia since this started.
This is a gross argument, the rest of this wider community functions without anyone feeling the need to use racist or homophobic terms. Dig your heels in if you want, but expect yourself to be firmly spurned by everyone else.
Attempted suicide is significantly higher amongst LGBT+ and allowing your community to use their identity as an insult continues to fuel the attitudes that have led to those figures. You don't know who has suffered in silence in your community, you don't know who has walked away and taken that pain with them and you don't know how your community normalising that sort of language has impacted people outside of this game. I don't see how any reasonable human being could weigh that up against their desire to use a certain term and think the latter is more important.
That is why people give a shit here, because at the end of the day all the IC stuff, insults and flexing don't matter one bit - and peoples lives and mental health are so much more important.
by Amaan Land » Sun Jul 19, 2020 5:01 am
Faroic wrote:Seeing these threads, I'm just glad I left the realms of toxicity, hate and arrogance: the LCN.
by Quebecshire » Sun Jul 19, 2020 7:55 am
Greater Sacramento wrote:Iris and Metis wrote:Btw, the people you're referring to within a 'racial minority' category appears to be any non-Caucasian - i.e. not a minority of any sort on a global game.
It sounds like some of your region have some learning to do, and it looks like you have some people with alternative perspectives within the region who could help with that. But my point before is that lashing out at anyone who looks down on you is the easy option, but better people wrestle with the underlying concerns in a more genuine way.
That said...
This is a gross argument, the rest of this wider community functions without anyone feeling the need to use racist or homophobic terms. Dig your heels in if you want, but expect yourself to be firmly spurned by everyone else.
Attempted suicide is significantly higher amongst LGBT+ and allowing your community to use their identity as an insult continues to fuel the attitudes that have led to those figures. You don't know who has suffered in silence in your community, you don't know who has walked away and taken that pain with them and you don't know how your community normalising that sort of language has impacted people outside of this game. I don't see how any reasonable human being could weigh that up against their desire to use a certain term and think the latter is more important.
That is why people give a shit here, because at the end of the day all the IC stuff, insults and flexing don't matter one bit - and peoples lives and mental health are so much more important.
You really want to go there? I have attempted suicide before because of my identity. Why? Because I was a victim of actual homophobia outside of NS. This region by no means has made me want to kill myself, what has is homophobia I have had to suffer through in the real world. I went to people in this region when I was thinking about killing myself and they helped when no one else was there for me. The community is here for anyone in this region no matter their race, religion, or sexuality. Are regions in NS homophobic sometimes? Yes there are but are we one of those regions? No. We have stated multiple times if someone does not like it they can tell the relevant authorities but we do not have to cater to people outside of our region who are getting offended on our behalf.
Benevolent Thomas wrote:I founded a defender organization out of my dislike of invaders, what invading represents, and my desire to see them suffer.
Pergamon wrote:I must say, you are truly what they deserve.
by Greater Sacramento » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:00 am
Quebecshire wrote:Greater Sacramento wrote:
You really want to go there? I have attempted suicide before because of my identity. Why? Because I was a victim of actual homophobia outside of NS. This region by no means has made me want to kill myself, what has is homophobia I have had to suffer through in the real world. I went to people in this region when I was thinking about killing myself and they helped when no one else was there for me. The community is here for anyone in this region no matter their race, religion, or sexuality. Are regions in NS homophobic sometimes? Yes there are but are we one of those regions? No. We have stated multiple times if someone does not like it they can tell the relevant authorities but we do not have to cater to people outside of our region who are getting offended on our behalf.
Woah there Sac. Personal experiences of LGBT people (like the fact that you felt safer coming out to us before IRL both with converting to Islam and homosexuality) are only relevant when they align with the narrative of how bad we are.
by Quebecshire » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:03 am
Greater Sacramento wrote:Quebecshire wrote:Woah there Sac. Personal experiences of LGBT people (like the fact that you felt safer coming out to us before IRL both with converting to Islam and homosexuality) are only relevant when they align with the narrative of how bad we are.
I also have internalized homophobia or something
Benevolent Thomas wrote:I founded a defender organization out of my dislike of invaders, what invading represents, and my desire to see them suffer.
Pergamon wrote:I must say, you are truly what they deserve.
by Greater Sacramento » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:08 am
Quebecshire wrote:Greater Sacramento wrote:
I also have internalized homophobia or something
Internalized homophobia is a thing, but I'd argue it takes the form of how Zion used to behave during like 2018 (citing Mormon doctrines as to why gay is bad).
You using a no no word while being ridiculously open about your sexuality is not "internalized homophobia" and anyone who argues that is being ridiculously patronizing.
by Quebecshire » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:10 am
Iris and Metis wrote:Btw, the people you're referring to within a 'racial minority' category appears to be any non-Caucasian - i.e. not a minority of any sort on a global game.
Iris and Metis wrote:It sounds like some of your region have some learning to do,
Iris and Metis wrote:And it looks like you have some people with alternative perspectives within the region who could help with that.
Iris and Metis wrote:But my point before is that lashing out at anyone who looks down on you is the easy option, but better people wrestle with the underlying concerns in a more genuine way.
Iris and Metis wrote:That said...Not one LGBTQ member or religious/racial minority has complained about anything relating to racism and homophobia since this started.
This is a gross argument, the rest of this wider community functions without anyone feeling the need to use racist or homophobic terms. Dig your heels in if you want, but expect yourself to be firmly spurned by everyone else.
Iris and Metis wrote:Attempted suicide is significantly higher amongst LGBT+ and allowing your community to use their identity as an insult continues to fuel the attitudes that have led to those figures. You don't know who has suffered in silence in your community, you don't know who has walked away and taken that pain with them and you don't know how your community normalising that sort of language has impacted people outside of this game. I don't see how any reasonable human being could weigh that up against their desire to use a certain term and think the latter is more important.
Iris and Metis wrote:That is why people give a shit here, because at the end of the day all the IC stuff, insults and flexing don't matter one bit - and peoples lives and mental health are so much more important.
Benevolent Thomas wrote:I founded a defender organization out of my dislike of invaders, what invading represents, and my desire to see them suffer.
Pergamon wrote:I must say, you are truly what they deserve.
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