Balder, Europeia, The LKE to Launch UIAF 4.0

[Cormactopia Prime]

It allows them better centralized coordination so they can more effectively attack other Feeders and Sinkers as they did Lazarus.

Way to create controversy where none exists.

I'm fairly sure then-President HEM making clear that any region that embraces Francoism is an enemy of Europeia and will be combated by this new organization is controversial. It certainly includes the NPO, but probably also the South Pacific's and The East Pacific's recent use of Francoist rhetoric, as well as Osiris' Sinkerism as articulated by Syberis, which is quasi-Francoist in nature.

It's beyond time for the Feeders and Sinkers that have relations with them to cut relations with these three regions,

Our GCR allies are more than capable of making foreign political decisions without your input.

And yet I will be providing my input nonetheless.

and to treat Balder as a user-created region

What does this even entail. If you're using UCR as a slur here, you are part of what is wrong with NS currently.

It means other Feeders and Sinkers should no longer give Balder any privileged treatment they may have given the region due to it being a Sinker. It means they shouldn't stop short of cutting relations with Balder as they would if they were threatened by a user-created region's organization.

That's the choice Balder has made by joining this organization and siding with Europeia in its crusade against certain Feeders and Sinkers.

Calm down Pope Nope, you're the only one claiming a crusade is coming. The LKE has the deepest respect for our friends and allies in the GCRs and would never act in hostility against them.

If Balder and The LKE have the deepest respect for their ally Osiris, I assume they will have no trouble repudiating HEM's remarks regarding Francoism, and aborting the finalization of this organization since HEM has made clear Europeia will use it to target certain Feeders and Sinkers, including Osiris.

[Kurnugia]

Interesting to see Europeia essentially declare the NPO its enemy.

First-class regions being treated like second-class citizens merely for their regionality is going to drive some malcontent, I'd say.

How can regions be citizens though? Regions are not entitled to anything. Not on the same level imho.

[King HEM]

Definitely not going to respond post-by-post here, in no small part because I am no longer President of Europeia, but a few things to keep in mind:

While it is snarky to suggest that embracing a military coalition isn't fully "independent," it is in no way a breach of the Independent Manifesto. Indeed, the manifesto urges that "an Independent region employs its Independent military in order to effect the military objectives dictated by the region’s diplomatic interests, and in any way necessary to achieve these objectives."

If a coalition is the most effective way to organize a military, that would be in lockstep with the Manifesto which urges regions to put their necessary self-interest before dogma. Don't need to make any backflips for that!

Francoism is a growing threat to Independence in Nationstates. Our enemies are certainly not the GCRs, as we have strong alliances with many. Our enemies are those who preach Franocism, which is an ideology that stands in direct opposition to Independence. Independence encourages regions to go their own way and succeed on their merits — while Francoism preaches that only Game-Created Regions are worthy of greatness. Independence urgest regions think about what actions are best for them and pursue them, while Franocism demands a rigid animosity toward UCRs and forced solidarity among GCRs. Independence is about a healthy exchange of ideas amongst a wide array of citizens, while Francoism is about strict border control and the relegation of all UCR citizens to a second class ("userite") who should be regarded with suspicion and disdain.

Over the past few months, we've seen Francoist rhetoric explode in this game, with well-respected players insulting players for the grave, grave offense of having citizenship in a UCR while wanting to participate in a GCR. To suggest that there isn't a threat for Independent regions, heck all UCR regions is absurd.

Europeia has a long history of restraint and diplomacy in world affairs, that will continue. But that doesn't mean that we should allow our citizens, and the citizens of a great number of noble UCRs, get kicked around by Francoist bullies.

[Ambrella]

I was getting worried, Cormac, I'm glad you found the "criticize" part after all.

I'm not sure how long Francoist extremists expected UCRs to be stepped on before, you know, saying something.

[Isaris]

When there are hundreds of citizens in Europeia, Balder and LKE combined... it can't really be thought of as a secret

A valid point. When the information was given to me, the person clearly believed it was secret. I didn't check, because as I've noted, I don't much care about this. It's interesting, but I don't find it nearly as exciting or controversial as some apparently believe it to be. I just posted it because I said I would.

You don't care much about it... yet you started this thread?

I'm extra glad that I'll be able to vote in favor of this as a Europeian senator just because you hate it so much.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I was getting worried, Cormac, I'm glad you found the "criticize" part after all.

I'm not sure how long Francoist extremists expected UCRs to be stepped on before, you know, saying something.

Hear, hear.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Everyone should take note that neither HEM nor anyone from Europeia has denied that some of Europeia's allies are targets of this anti-GCR organization.

[Salvarity]

Way to create controversy where none exists.

I'm fairly sure then-President HEM making clear that any region that embraces Francoism is an enemy of Europeia and will be combated by this new organization is controversial. It certainly includes the NPO, but probably also the South Pacific's and The East Pacific's recent use of Francoist rhetoric, as well as Osiris' Sinkerism as articulated by Syberis, which is quasi-Francoist in nature.

I read a fair bit of Syberis' writings in regards to Sinkerism. Frankly, I liked what he wrote, I thought it was an interesting new ideology that put Sinkers in a new perspective. But it wasn't Francoist rhetoric. Trying to equate it with Francoism and create some artificial barrier between UCRs and Osiris is absolutely bullshit.

I understood the point of Sinkerism as defining an ideology that would apply to well, sinkers. You are doing a disservice to Syberis's work by equating it with Francoism.

Our GCR allies are more than capable of making foreign political decisions without your input.

And yet I will be providing my input nonetheless.

Well I can't stop you on that.

What does this even entail. If you're using UCR as a slur here, you are part of what is wrong with NS currently.

It means other Feeders and Sinkers should no longer give Balder any privileged treatment they may have given the region due to it being a Sinker. It means they shouldn't stop short of cutting relations with Balder as they would if they were threatened by a user-created region's organization.

Lazarus is a Warzone, Balder is a UCR. Are we gonna make TRR into a sub-forum next?

But I'll mildly agree with you in theory. GCR, UCR, it should not matter. If a region finds another to be a threat, they should be treated as such. But, I doubt that suggestion came in good faith; you clearly believe UCRs are worthless in comparison to GCRs.

Calm down Pope Nope, you're the only one claiming a crusade is coming. The LKE has the deepest respect for our friends and allies in the GCRs and would never act in hostility against them.

If Balder and The LKE have the deepest respect for their ally Osiris, I assume they will have no trouble repudiating HEM's remarks regarding Francoism, and aborting the finalization of this organization since HEM has made clear Europeia will use it to target certain Feeders and Sinkers, including Osiris.

How about we let Alti declare Osiris Francoist, not you. Frankly, we've been pretty friendly and I don't see our relationship deteriorating. Sorry to disappoint you.

---

I actually really liked the statement made by HEM and will echo his sentiment. Especially this part.

Francoism is a growing threat to Independence in Nationstates. Our enemies are certainly not the GCRs, as we have strong alliances with many. Our enemies are those who preach Franocism, which is an ideology that stands in direct opposition to Independence. Independence encourages regions to go their own way and succeed on their merits — while Francoism preaches that only Game-Created Regions are worthy of greatness. Independence urgest regions think about what actions are best for them and pursue them, while Franocism demands a rigid animosity toward UCRs and forced solidarity among GCRs. Independence is about a healthy exchange of ideas amongst a wide array of citizens, while Francoism is about strict border control and the relegation of all UCR citizens to a second class ("userite") who should be regarded with suspicion and disdain.

Over the past few months, we've seen Francoist rhetoric explode in this game, with well-respected players insulting players for the grave, grave offense of having citizenship in a UCR while wanting to participate in a GCR. To suggest that there isn't a threat for Independent regions, heck all UCR regions is absurd.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Everyone should take note that neither HEM nor anyone from Europeia has denied that some of Europeia's allies are targets of this anti-GCR organization.

Conversely, it's been pretty much outright stated by them that they have been targeted by anti-UCR rhetoric from some people who call themselves allies Insulting one's supposed allies isn't very ally-like coming from GCR's down, either.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Everyone should take note that neither HEM nor anyone from Europeia has denied that some of Europeia's allies are targets of this anti-GCR organization.

Conversely, it's been pretty much outright stated by them that they have been targeted by anti-UCR rhetoric from some people who call themselves allies Insulting one's supposed allies isn't very ally-like coming from GCR's down, either.

You should probably not take sides against Osiris. It's hazardous to The Black Hawks' health.

[Unibot III]

Also, it was common practice a while ago for Europeia to insert clauses into their treaties banning the signatories from signing over their military forces like this. Wonder if that’s still the case...

Europeia only had that clause to prevent its allies' membership in the Founderless Regions Alliance (FRA). In the cases of Sovereign Confederation, UIAF, and the Imperial Sovereign Realms Army (ISRA), Europeia interpreted all three of those as not being prohibited by their treaties.

*smiles, snickering*

Good times.

[Ambrella]

Everyone should take note that neither HEM nor anyone from Europeia has denied that some of Europeia's allies are targets of this anti-GCR organization.

Europeia has no reason to target regions that are friendly to us.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Conversely, it's been pretty much outright stated by them that they have been targeted by anti-UCR rhetoric from some people who call themselves allies Insulting one's supposed allies isn't very ally-like coming from GCR's down, either.

You should probably not take sides against Osiris. It's hazardous to The Black Hawks' health.

As far as I know, Osiris has not blacklisted us without even detailed public accusations to date while implying we're somehow "subversive" without proof (like TEP and TWP have), infiltrated and spied on us (like TP has in the past), or been battlefield enemies of ours who also happen to preach strong and clear "Userites are inferior" rhetoric (like TSP has). On the contrary, We've spoken quite a lot with Altino, worked with Osiris on a few things recently, and I believe one of our shining newer members (Benja) is even utilizing some of his triggering skills to lead operations for Osiris as well. I see no reason why I personally or TBH should hold political animosity towards Osiris. Not to mention, we've got Koth on Council and Syg on Advisory

As noted by Salv, a respectable gap exists between saying "enemies should be excluded" and "all userites should be treated as enemies and excluded." For that matter, we exclude most defenders from participation in our region and discord as enemies, so I'd say the logic makes perfect sense!

[Cormactopia Prime]

Everyone should take note that neither HEM nor anyone from Europeia has denied that some of Europeia's allies are targets of this anti-GCR organization.

Europeia has no reason to target regions that are friendly to us.

But Europeia's President defined any region that has embraced Francoism as Europeia's enemy. That includes some of your allies.

It would be nice to see an unequivocal statement that Europeia does not consider any of its treaty allies to be enemies. It's a bit odd, and pretty alarming, that you are doing everything you can not to say that, which only confirms my suspicions that this is a threat to a number of GCRs.

[Onderkelkia]

I also wonder if Balder shares Europeia's goal of using this organization to combat the NPO, given that the NPO is one of Balder's allies.

This is incorrect. The representatives of Balder and The West Pacific unanimously voted to expel the Pacific from the GCR Sovereignty Accords on 9 May 2018. This decision followed the Pacific's express breach of the treaty's provisions relating to military hostilities and its repeated refusal to respond to, or even acknowledge, TWP-Balder requests for discussion regarding the matter. As such, there is no extant alliance between the Pacific and Balder.

As I read it, President HEM's statement said nothing about combating the NPO as an entity. It is reasonable for Europeia as a target of extremist Defender-Francoist attacks - and as a large and powerful region in its own right - to challenge such thinking and insist on being treated with dignity.

To be frank, Balder is proud of our UCR alliances, as we are also proud of alliances with our fellow GCRs. We have valued both GCR and UCR partnerships consistently throughout our history. If anyone hasn't noticed that Balder has worked closely with both GCR and UCR allies since October 2011, they haven't been paying attention. Balder will not be told by anyone that it cannot or should not sign treaties with particular regions on the basis of their game mechanics. Nor is this stance unique to Balder. For example, I know that The North Pacific shares a similar perspective on the value of UCR allies.

If Balder and The LKE have the deepest respect for their ally Osiris, I assume they will have no trouble repudiating HEM's remarks regarding Francoism, and aborting the finalization of this organization since HEM has made clear Europeia will use it to target certain Feeders and Sinkers, including Osiris.

It is extremist Defender-Francoists who have attempted to target regions like Europeia and the LKE, not the other way round.

I have seen no evidence whatsoever of our ally Osiris engaging in such foolishness, so I see no reason why they would take offence at Europeia opposing such tactics. If any hypothetical region did have concerns that they wished the LKE or Balder to consider, then they are more than welcome to contact us through official channels. On the other hand, if you as an individual think you can pressure Balder into changing our policy in any way, don't get your hopes up.

[Niagasetag]

MAJOR LEAK!

Rumour has it this is the flag....

[Glen-Rhodes]

While it is snarky to suggest that embracing a military coalition isn't fully "independent," it is in no way a breach of the Independent Manifesto. Indeed, the manifesto urges that "an Independent region employs its Independent military in order to effect the military objectives dictated by the region’s diplomatic interests, and in any way necessary to achieve these objectives."

Not signing over your region's military to a supraregional body has been one of the pillars of Independence since the whole idea was first created. Independence has always been about maintaining total sovereignty of your region, so that you can utilize your military for whatever purposes are in regional interests. Signing the Europeian Navy over to imperialists in Balder and the LKE is a violation of the core tenants of Independence. I should know, I constantly fended off conspiracy theories that I was about to violate TSP's Independence by allying with the United Defenders League or signing us up for the Founderless Region's Alliance.

You can try to justify it to yourself, but what you're doing goes against the past 5 years of Independence doctrine. You're creating a new United Imperial Armed Forces, and not even bothering to hide it all that well, because y'all plagiarized the UIAF treaty to do it! It makes sense-- Independence is a failing ideology with fewer adherents each year. Europeia has joined itself at the hip with Balder, even letting the Queen of Balder be your President, so it was only a matter of time before imperialism reared its head again, after humiliating defeat when the UIAF fell apart. Imperialism was dead, long live Europeian imperalism.

Also, you can't even try to say that Europeia is maintaining sovereign control because it can veto military operations. The entire "Command Structure" article of the IJCC is identical to the UIAF's, just with "Chairman" replacing "Joint Commander." How did maintaining sovereign control work out for Albion, who got so fed up with the UIAF they dissolved the treaty unilaterally? By their own account, they were dragged into wars they had no interests in, did most of the work, and got little of the credit. How is the IJCC different, when the treaty language is exactly the same?

Just own up to Europeian being imperialist now. It'll make your future so much easier.

[Kurnugia]

grabs popcorn

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

it was only a matter of time before imperialism reared its head again, after humiliating defeat when the UIAF fell apart.

So I have to ask, was defending humiliatingly defeated when the UDL and FRA fell apart? Seems like the logic would apply...

[Glen-Rhodes]

it was only a matter of time before imperialism reared its head again, after humiliating defeat when the UIAF fell apart.

So I have to ask, was defending humiliatingly defeated when the UDL and FRA fell apart? Seems like the logic would apply...

For a while there, then TGW came into life

[Lord Dominator]

So I have to ask, was defending humiliatingly defeated when the UDL and FRA fell apart? Seems like the logic would apply...

For a while there, then TGW came into life

And then it fell even farther!

[Glen-Rhodes]

For a while there, then TGW came into life

And then it fell even farther!

But then Roavin was born and steered TSP into success <3

[Ambrella]

Europeia has no reason to target regions that are friendly to us.

But Europeia's President defined any region that has embraced Francoism as Europeia's enemy. That includes some of your allies.

It would be nice to see an unequivocal statement that Europeia does not consider any of its treaty allies to be enemies. It's a bit odd, and pretty alarming, that you are doing everything you can not to say that, which only confirms my suspicions that this is a threat to a number of GCRs.

I am not currently in a position to make a statement for the Europeian government. However, it seems pretty obvious to me that Europeia has nothing to gain from targetting our allies or declaring them enemies. We are more concerned with fighting the broader trend of Francoism, a dangerous ideology that divides NSers into castes simply based on the region they choose to participate in.

[Kurnugia]

But Europeia's President defined any region that has embraced Francoism as Europeia's enemy. That includes some of your allies.

It would be nice to see an unequivocal statement that Europeia does not consider any of its treaty allies to be enemies. It's a bit odd, and pretty alarming, that you are doing everything you can not to say that, which only confirms my suspicions that this is a threat to a number of GCRs.

I am not currently in a position to make a statement for the Europeian government. However, it seems pretty obvious to me that Europeia has nothing to gain from targetting our allies or declaring them enemies. We are more concerned with fighting the broader trend of Francoism, a dangerous ideology that divides NSers into castes simply based on the region they choose to participate in.

Oh, how so? I do not recall any further division between NSers based on feederite and userites.

[King HEM]

Not signing over your region's military to a supraregional body has been one of the pillars of Independence since the whole idea was first created. Independence has always been about maintaining total sovereignty of your region, so that you can utilize your military for whatever purposes are in regional interests. Signing the Europeian Navy over to imperialists in Balder and the LKE is a violation of the core tenants of Independence. I should know, I constantly fended off conspiracy theories that I was about to violate TSP's Independence by allying with the United Defenders League or signing us up for the Founderless Region's Alliance.

You can try to justify it to yourself, but what you're doing goes against the past 5 years of Independence doctrine. You're creating a new United Imperial Armed Forces, and not even bothering to hide it all that well, because y'all plagiarized the UIAF treaty to do it! It makes sense-- Independence is a failing ideology with fewer adherents each year. Europeia has joined itself at the hip with Balder, even letting the Queen of Balder be your President, so it was only a matter of time before imperialism reared its head again, after humiliating defeat when the UIAF fell apart. Imperialism was dead, long live Europeian imperalism.

Also, you can't even try to say that Europeia is maintaining sovereign control because it can veto military operations. The entire "Command Structure" article of the IJCC is identical to the UIAF's, just with "Chairman" replacing "Joint Commander." How did maintaining sovereign control work out for Albion, who got so fed up with the UIAF they dissolved the treaty unilaterally? By their own account, they were dragged into wars they had no interests in, did most of the work, and got little of the credit. How is the IJCC different, when the treaty language is exactly the same?

Just own up to Europeian being imperialist now. It'll make your future so much easier.

Our military isn't signed away. For how much ya'll are harping on how the treaty is similar to the UIAF, you seem to have not noticed how much stronger regional sovereignty is in this treaty. That wasn't an accident when I was typing the thing up, it was a deliberate decision made by all participants.

Yes, many terms ago the "Queen of Balder" was our President. She was in that position because she was elected, after serving in Europeia for longer than the region Balder has existed. I cannot help notice your confusion. Is Europeia controlled by Balder because we once elected the Queen of Balder our President, or is Balder now under the yoke of a "new Europeian imperialism"????

And finally, yes, Albion, a region that became so much more powerful and influential after throwing off the shackles of the UIAF. A horrendous, toxic, organization that was!

Overall, I'm sorry you've been so triggered by us being against an ideology that calls for our degradation. Maybe that says more about you than us?