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Feederites & Userites

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
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Solorni
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Postby Solorni » Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:37 pm

Valerius the Whisperer wrote:Notwithstanding the intent of the question nor the nuances of the career of individual player to which the question was posed, this actually strikes at the heart, I think, of a lot of discussions related to the validity of "conversions" between sides of the userite-feederite paradigm (as well as other, for that matter) and some of the tensions between regionalist and cosmopolitan camps. In the former case, it might be asked whether someone can really become a true feederite after years working in UCRs even if they divest themselves from all such places, let alone if they continue to actively participate in them. Similarly, one might also ask whether someone who occupies leading positions in two separate communities can really be counted on to be loyal to both communities and be able to act in the best interest of both even if said interests are completely contradictory. Obviously, the answer will depend on what perspective a given observer has, like with many other things.

"Of course, like all over-simple classifications of this type, the dichotomy becomes, if pressed, artificial, scholastic and ultimately absurd." ~ Isaiah Berlin

This is the quote I would use to describe this whole dichotomy. Ultimately nearly all players have spent time in both. Krulltopia himself spent time in the UCRs for a while. But I think the most telling are the examples of people who had spent most of their time in UCRs and then transforming their new homes in the GCRs in fundamental and positive ways. R3n for example; whose main career was in Great Britain and Ireland & Europeia transformed The North Pacific and was most responsible for making it what it is today. Much of the mechanics of good government are the same between GCRs and UCRs.

The main fundamental difference GCRs and UCRs is the combination of prestige aspect of the GCRs, the security factor and the fact that the GCRs will always exist. Our two greatest threats are chaos and inactivity. When a UCR is inactive, it will die and no longer exist. But when a GCR is inactive, it won't have this out. So GCRs are constantly fighting against chaos and inactivity. Honestly the inactivity battle is difficult because it feels like the default state of things. It feels like trying to bail out water of a sinking ship sometimes.

To me, these are the main battlegrounds for the GCRs: fighting inactivity & fighting instability. They are the twin heads of the monster lurking beneath our beds. Ultimately our regions succeed best when they are battled back and leaders can push their GCR up. TEP for example was in a losing battle with these two forces until Yuno came along. It's all about being able to attract people to our regions and have them treat it as their main home. What I think is great about Balder's system is that we have a strong culture and are impervious to attempts to make us unstable.

In many ways, this is similar to how China has throughout its history been able to convert foreigners to their culture and system. Whether it was the Mongols & the Yuan dynasty or the Manchu's & the Qing Dynasty; China was able to get them to adopt their culture and systems. This is like how many GCRs have adopted people on an interpersonal from abroad from all regions and enlisted their aid in fighting inactivity while eventually getting them to adopt the regions culture and making that region their #1 home. So I'm not certain if players moving from GCR to GCR is that different from players moving from UCR to GCR or UCR to UCR. Ultimately all regions are trying to increase their player base and strengthen their region.

The other aspect that I find perplexing, although I think it's more inferred is that GCRs cannot influence UCRs. I believe they totally can, if they build a strong enough state and culture. I mean, when you look at WALL for example... both Balder & TNP (but especially TNP) have a lot of influence over it. Despite WALL being two UCRs & two GCRs, the headquarters are in the GCR TNP and their strength is very clear on WA matters.
Lovely Queen of Balder
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Consular
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Postby Consular » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:24 pm

Solorni wrote:
Consular wrote:Question for Solorni: Were you loyal first and foremost to Balder while you were president of Europeia?

When I was first President of Europeia and joined Balder during my second term in 2011, I eventually made the choice to give up my Europeian career and give Balder something it dearly needed: a person whose first identity was that of Balder. At that time balder had a lot of people but the vast majority considered it as a second or even third home. I had done polling in the region on the issue and I decided to resolve it.

There was also a lesson I was learning in Europeia at the time and have very rudely been taught again recently; which is that no matter what I do for Europeia it will never be appreciated. In 2011, I finished far behind Earth in Europeia for recruiter of the year despite having sent thousands more telegrams. So I am acutely aware of how even when things can be quantified in Europeia that that sort of thing will always happen there. It had happened so many times.

I have fun in Europeia, I've made a lot of friends there, have become a better pkayer there and have given some of my best efforts there. It will always have a special place in my heart even when it teaches me about double standards. But I made my decision a long time ago to make Balder my first home in 2011.

Quite a few of the decisions I have made in how Balder functions particularly from an administrative and cultural side have been to avoid the mistakes of Europeia. Like anything else, we can take what works best while leaving and learning behind what does not work. For example, despite how silly and funny the members of Balder can be at times, we've never driven someone out because of our community is abrasive. That cultural difference about ensuring inclusivity and respect is something I worked have worked hard on. The fact that our admins and mods extremely rarely have to get involved in personal disputes is a point of pride.

Anyway, that's a bit of a digression. I've done more work for Balder than any other region. Despite being in Europeia for longer, I have more forum posts in Balder. In fact, 15 percent of forum posts in Balder are mine and much more than that for topics. As another study recently showed, I have the most rmb posts in Balder. Anyway, the point is that I love Europeia and have put a lot of work there but Balder is my baby. Sometimes too much so because I have sometimes been like a mother bear defending her cub when people criticize it.

Ironically in Europeia, people asked the question you just did but in reverse. Ultimately I can separate my two roles as I always have and it helps that both regions are very close in foreign affairs just like tnp and Europeia is as well. Anyway, I hope you enjoyed this answer because it took me a while to write it on my phone and was opened a few old wounds.

Some interesting stuff in there but I'm going to try remain on point.

You were president of Europeia again very recently, yes? Were you loyal first and foremost to Balder then?

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Solorni
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Postby Solorni » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:41 pm

Consular wrote:You were president of Europeia again very recently, yes? Were you loyal first and foremost to Balder then?

Oh, I thought the answer was painfully obvious in my last post. I have always been loyal to Balder first and foremost since I originally made my decision to make Balder my primary home in 2011.

"Anyway, the point is that I love Europeia and have put a lot of work there but Balder is my baby."
Lovely Queen of Balder
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Abraxim
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Postby Abraxim » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:44 pm

I will forever and always be loyal yo Illuminati, my region.... even now when it's occupied, even now when it is destroyed. TBH, you can destroy a region, but you cannot destroy the idea.

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Consular
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Postby Consular » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:45 pm

Solorni wrote:
Consular wrote:You were president of Europeia again very recently, yes? Were you loyal first and foremost to Balder then?

Oh, I thought the answer was painfully obvious in my last post. I have always been loyal to Balder first and foremost since I originally made my decision to make Balder my primary home in 2011.

"Anyway, the point is that I love Europeia and have put a lot of work there but Balder is my baby."

Why become president then if your loyalties don't lie with Europeia?

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Solorni
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Postby Solorni » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:05 pm

Consular wrote:
Solorni wrote:Oh, I thought the answer was painfully obvious in my last post. I have always been loyal to Balder first and foremost since I originally made my decision to make Balder my primary home in 2011.

"Anyway, the point is that I love Europeia and have put a lot of work there but Balder is my baby."

Why become president then if your loyalties don't lie with Europeia?

Your assertion is a bit bizarre and incorrect. I have always striven to be a good public servant in all my roles and I can still be loyal to Europeia even if Balder is my first home. I've put many hours of work into Europeia just as I've put even more hours into Balder.

Ultimately I became President because I felt like I had something to offer Europeia and to improve it. On an interesting note, the roles do not really intersect all that much. In Balder, my role does not typically deal with government policy. When I want to change how Balder elects its Statsminister for example; I have to suggest it in like Nordic Hall where such ideas are often shot down like my last suggestion on electing the Statsminister. I do not choose the government or its policies at all in Balder either. My role is typically more about the World Assembly and generating activity as well as helping out.

I like helping out and I can't help but notice that your UCR seems to be becoming smaller and smaller and less active as well. If you need any tips to help grow and sustain your region, I'd be happy to help.
Lovely Queen of Balder
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Consular
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Postby Consular » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:32 pm

Didn't you cop a lot of flak for being inactive while you were president though?

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Solorni
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Postby Solorni » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:38 pm

Consular wrote:Didn't you cop a lot of flak for being inactive while you were president though?

Yes, I was dealing with very tough RL issues at the time and resigned in my most recent term because of that. But I think you're getting a bit off topic?
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Consular
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Postby Consular » Thu Mar 29, 2018 10:45 pm

Am I?

I suppose the point I would like to make is loyalty is a fluid sort of thing. It is not a hierarchy or pyramid -- you don't need to order your loyalties from 1 to 10. It is very possible to be loyal to multiple places, people, ideals. Sometimes those loyalties will conflict -- we shouldn't pretend they won't. But that doesn't mean they don't mean something.

I think feederites and userites is a completely useless categorisation. It doesn't even make sense when the NPO uses it, let alone when anyone else does.

Also, if a few simple questions is enough to make you so markedly defensive Solorni, perhaps you need to do some introspection and ask yourself why that is.

And what was the point of this thread anyway? It is basically you asking if people are as loyal to their regions as you are supposedly to yours.

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Glen-Rhodes
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Postby Glen-Rhodes » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:50 am

Userite and Feederite is a coherent frame to look through NSGP, but people keep conflating it with “GCR sovereignty” in general. Feederites care about sovereignty insofar as we’re talking about separating GCRs from UCRs. But Francosim hardly has a problem with going into a Userite-controlled GCR to get rid of the “menace.” The goal is separating the worlds, not building inviolate borders around each GCR. It’s not as universally principled as the opponents try to make it.

I don’t really think anybody other than the NPO has adopted that framework. The current resurgence seems a lot more about opposing entryism from anyone. It’d be more accurate to talk about regionalism vs cosmopolitanism, than Feederite vs Userite.

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Cormactopia Prime
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Postby Cormactopia Prime » Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:22 am

Glen-Rhodes wrote:Userite and Feederite is a coherent frame to look through NSGP, but people keep conflating it with “GCR sovereignty” in general. Feederites care about sovereignty insofar as we’re talking about separating GCRs from UCRs. But Francosim hardly has a problem with going into a Userite-controlled GCR to get rid of the “menace.” The goal is separating the worlds, not building inviolate borders around each GCR. It’s not as universally principled as the opponents try to make it.

I don’t really think anybody other than the NPO has adopted that framework. The current resurgence seems a lot more about opposing entryism from anyone. It’d be more accurate to talk about regionalism vs cosmopolitanism, than Feederite vs Userite.

Hey, look, Glen and I agree on something. Now quick, everyone a) mark it on your calendars, b) stop the Francoist nonsense.

It would also be nice for those who are definitely not regionalists -- you folks know who you are -- to stop talking about it altogether.
Last edited by Cormactopia Prime on Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Pierconium
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Postby Pierconium » Fri Mar 30, 2018 12:23 pm

Cormactopia Prime wrote:
Glen-Rhodes wrote:Userite and Feederite is a coherent frame to look through NSGP, but people keep conflating it with “GCR sovereignty” in general. Feederites care about sovereignty insofar as we’re talking about separating GCRs from UCRs. But Francosim hardly has a problem with going into a Userite-controlled GCR to get rid of the “menace.” The goal is separating the worlds, not building inviolate borders around each GCR. It’s not as universally principled as the opponents try to make it.

I don’t really think anybody other than the NPO has adopted that framework. The current resurgence seems a lot more about opposing entryism from anyone. It’d be more accurate to talk about regionalism vs cosmopolitanism, than Feederite vs Userite.

Hey, look, Glen and I agree on something. Now quick, everyone a) mark it on your calendars, b) stop the Francoist nonsense.

It would also be nice for those who are definitely not regionalists -- you folks know who you are -- to stop talking about it altogether.

And I agree with you both.
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Weed
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Postby Weed » Sat Mar 31, 2018 8:52 pm

I don't think the userite / feederite dichotomy is worthless, and I definitely don't think it has that much to do with Francoism inherently. I knew I was a userite long before I had heard much about Francoism. I think the terms have just evolved to weird place. I don't really see that may people around anymore that I would describe as being anti-feederite, or actually advocating for UCRs over GCRs but that wasn't always the case.

There used to be a decent group of people who thought the feeders were a waste of time, and that it was where people who had been on NS for a few years went when RL got too busy to truly play the game any longer. I was definitely part of that thought. To us, UCRs were more interesting because they had to work for it and spend a lot more time to keep up. Feederites just had to eject someone if their endos got too high. Userites had to recruit for hours! Recruiting has changed a lot since then - it used to be the main thing to do in the UCRs. Everything revolved around being good at that. Now what you see isn't manual very often. UCRs live off a weak stream of respondents to an auto generated recruitment message. You don't really see the sentiment that GCRs are for people that just want to sit on their butt and UCRs are for people that want to get out there and make things happen, and I suspect the recruitment changes were a big part of that. That sentiment was at the core of what I remember from the userite / feederite days.

I'd still say there are plenty of reasons to prefer userites to the GCRs though. I think there's some pretty real differences between feeders and UCRs, and the benefits of both attract and repel certain types of people (or people who value certain things). That still seems to be true to me, so the terms aren't useless.
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Zemnaya Svoboda
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Postby Zemnaya Svoboda » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:06 am

I have no intention of moving to a region someone owns.

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Pierconium
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Postby Pierconium » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:13 am

Zemnaya Svoboda wrote:I have no intention of moving to a region someone owns.

Your signature suggests otherwise...
Tyrant (Ret.)

Tell me what you regard as your greatest strength, so I will know how best to undermine you; tell me of your greatest fear, so I will know which I must force you to face; tell me what you cherish most, so I will know what to take from you; and tell me what you crave, so that I might deny you…

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Zemnaya Svoboda
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Zemnaya Svoboda » Sun Apr 01, 2018 7:48 am

Pierconium wrote:
Zemnaya Svoboda wrote:I have no intention of moving to a region someone owns.

Your signature suggests otherwise...

I (this nation) have no intention of moving (i.e. relocating) to such a region.

In general I'm also not too interested in building something that is someone's fief :P

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Consular
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Postby Consular » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:42 am

Zemnaya Svoboda wrote:I have no intention of moving to a region someone owns.

Everything is owned by someone, even if that isn't immediately obvious.

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Cormactopia Prime
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Postby Cormactopia Prime » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:56 am

Consular wrote:
Zemnaya Svoboda wrote:I have no intention of moving to a region someone owns.

Everything is owned by someone, even if that isn't immediately obvious.

I'm not sure that's really true. I don't know who one would call the owner of TNP, for example...

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Solorni
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Postby Solorni » Sun Apr 01, 2018 10:59 am

Balder is owned by the people :)
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Malphe
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Postby Malphe » Sun Apr 01, 2018 11:03 am

Cormactopia Prime wrote:
Consular wrote:Everything is owned by someone, even if that isn't immediately obvious.

I'm not sure that's really true. I don't know who one would call the owner of TNP, for example...

^ Not wrong. TNP- as well as a great many other regions- is a collaborative project, no one person 'owns' it.
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Weed
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Postby Weed » Sun Apr 01, 2018 12:32 pm

Malphe wrote:
Cormactopia Prime wrote:I'm not sure that's really true. I don't know who one would call the owner of TNP, for example...

^ Not wrong. TNP- as well as a great many other regions- is a collaborative project, no one person 'owns' it.

Which is no less true in Europeia and several UCR regions. A GCR delegate is only marginally less powerful than a founder, and some of them like Rach in Balder could be said to be even more powerful due to the stream of nation inflows that makes her position as permanent and permanently significant as she wants it. The extent to which GCR's are not dominated by all powerful delegates it is because very few have tried to do so. The amount of effort it takes to overthrow a delegate that does attempt to do so is tenfold the amount of effort it would take to relocate a community to a new UCR if a founder goes bonkers. It takes damn near three fourths of Gameplay on the rare occasion someone tries it.

No one can ever own a community. UCR or GCR. But game mechanics do allow one to dominate a region in both the UCRs and GCRs. (And given that most of these communities exist at least partly offsite, they are even more in the hands of one trusted individual.) Both types of regions involve trusting the people in a position to do so won't attempt to without a strong reason. And on the rare occurrence someone violates that trust it means a ton of effort that may or may not succeed.

The real difference between the two IMO is that GCRs are permanent, but largely unchanging. All five of the feeders don't feel much different than they were in 2009 when I got active in Gameplay. They've changed around the edges and got more effective since we've learned to build tools. But by and large they are the same communities with largely the same values and interests. UCRs are usually going to die off at some point, but have the potential to shift quite a bit during their life based on the players that are active within them. So a player who wants to be a small part that doesn't move the needle much (because the needle never moves much) of a never ending story that's still going to be playing out in ten years is more at home in the feeders. A player that wants to shape whats going on around him or her more is probably more at home in a UCR, but should be aware that in all likelihood in three-four years people are going to have to be reminded your region ever existed in the first place.

That's how I've seen it play out over the last nine years. Bottom line go where the people are the best fit and where you enjoy what you're doing day by day.
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Solorni
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Ex-Nation

Postby Solorni » Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:41 pm

I am the philosopher queen of Kallipolis.

Although the power of a gcr delegate or founder also depends on the role they assume. I have a lot of real power as well as legal power if I so wanted. But I rarely use either. Technically I am less powerful from a legal perspective than a delegate of tnp because they control the government.

I would also add TRR to your list of relatively unchanged GCRs. Lazarus has moved through several themes and balder and Osiris are too new.
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Weed
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Postby Weed » Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:56 pm

Solorni wrote:I am the philosopher queen of Kallipolis.

Although the power of a gcr delegate or founder also depends on the role they assume. I have a lot of real power as well as legal power if I so wanted. But I rarely use either. Technically I am less powerful from a legal perspective than a delegate of tnp because they control the government.

I would also add TRR to your list of relatively unchanged GCRs. Lazarus has moved through several themes and balder and Osiris are too new.

There was a reason we always said "Feederites" - because the sinkers never had Border Control so nothing really dramatic could ever happen there., They were always just kind of ignored. So TRR is kind of a special duck since it still has no BC powers. It is actually a region you can say no one owns. Lazarus too, spent a lot of those years I was alive in Gameplay in such a state. It only became chaotic when people gave it the power to be which it did not originally have. I suspect it will stable out now and assume a somewhat unchanging face. But it is unique in that it was a region that originally had no say in who joined or participated in the region, and then suddenly did have that power unexpectedly. I think a lot of that can be chalked up to game mechanic changes. Although it is also true that Sinkers get pretty much the worst of both worlds in that their inflow of nations is less active nations and they are subject to the same vulnerabilities as feeders. I suspect that's why they tend to steer away from democratic control of the region, because they probably would be more prone to problems that can't be fixed.

Anywho, you're exactly right. What someone could do in theory is far less meaningful for a community than what the person actually does. All regions could be dominated in theory. That's not much of a knock against either region type.
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Lord Dominator
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Postby Lord Dominator » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:53 pm

Presumably, since UCRs are owned by whoever owns the Founded account (or who did), anything that is truly founderless is owned by the game/admins/Max
Boring, I know :p

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Solorni
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Ex-Nation

Postby Solorni » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:24 pm

Lord Dominator wrote:Presumably, since UCRs are owned by whoever owns the Founded account (or who did), anything that is truly founderless is owned by the game/admins/Max
Boring, I know :p

Technically Balder was founded by testlandia.
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Proud Delegate of WALL

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