AIR - Alliance of Interdependent Regions

[Glacikaldr]

TIL antagonising cheaters is a bad thing.

Ridiculous. Let the NS moderators do their job without having to deal with you as well. Learn to address it appropriately.

Expecting standards from AIR? thats funny

Why? Is this Gay's stance as well? I'll keep that in mind.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

TIL antagonising cheaters is a bad thing.

Ridiculous. Let the NS moderators do their job without having to deal with you as well. Learn to address it appropriately.

TIL banning cheaters from regions is "antagonizing."
TIL that banning cheaters from regions somehow makes the mods have to deal with us?
TIL that banning cheaters from regions isn't an appropriate reaction, but unbanning them is.

[Glacikaldr]

Ridiculous. Let the NS moderators do their job without having to deal with you as well. Learn to address it appropriately.

TIL banning cheaters from regions is "antagonizing."
TIL that banning cheaters from regions somehow makes the mods have to deal with us?
TIL that banning cheaters from regions isn't an appropriate reaction, but unbanning them is.

TIL you realise that mods respond to reports within hours in the worst case scenarios and usually within minutes, and that you should expect better of yourself than simply sending cheaters for me personally to deal with over on TRR's RMB. Not that I mind, but well established players like yourself should know better than to set poor precedent and let cheaters go free. To anyone reading this, this is your friend: <https://www.nationstates.net/page=help>.

[Devi Vytherin]

TIL banning cheaters from regions is "antagonizing."
TIL that banning cheaters from regions somehow makes the mods have to deal with us?
TIL that banning cheaters from regions isn't an appropriate reaction, but unbanning them is.

TIL you realise that mods respond to reports within hours in the worst case scenarios and usually within minutes, and that you should expect better of yourself than simply sending cheaters for me personally to deal with over on TRR's RMB. Not that I mind, but well established players like yourself should know better than to set poor precedent and let cheaters go free. To anyone reading this, this is your friend: <https://www.nationstates.net/page=help>.

Mildly confused as to how anything souls suggested implies letting cheaters go free?

[RiderSyl]

Oh, Glack. Have somebody inform you about the Predator scandal, so you can reconsider your opinions about handling cheaters.

IMO, your views come across as really out-of-touch, and coming from me that's saying a lot.

[Glacikaldr]

TIL you realise that mods respond to reports within hours in the worst case scenarios and usually within minutes, and that you should expect better of yourself than simply sending cheaters for me personally to deal with over on TRR's RMB. Not that I mind, but well established players like yourself should know better than to set poor precedent and let cheaters go free. To anyone reading this, this is your friend: <https://www.nationstates.net/page=help>.

Mildly confused as to how anything souls suggested implies letting cheaters go free?

I'm against just letting cheaters go with a banjection. Keeping them in the region by playing along until the mods can get on it seems the best way forward in most situations. It's best to leave such things for mods to deal with who have experience and the like. In the case of cheaters, you may be wrong as well so an outright banjection might be uncalled for.

I haven't heard of such a scandal: will do.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

TIL banning cheaters from regions is "antagonizing."
TIL that banning cheaters from regions somehow makes the mods have to deal with us?
TIL that banning cheaters from regions isn't an appropriate reaction, but unbanning them is.

TIL you realise that mods respond to reports within hours in the worst case scenarios and usually within minutes, and that you should expect better of yourself than simply sending cheaters for me personally to deal with over on TRR's RMB. Not that I mind, but well established players like yourself should know better than to set poor precedent and let cheaters go free. To anyone reading this, this is your friend: <https://www.nationstates.net/page=help>.

I have no idea what you're on about, because we booted them many hours after they got themselves WA banned, lol. In two waves, no less. Then AIR let them back in for...? Hence the question.

The back half of your message is total nonsense. Not much else to be said there. Other than that all else aside, the question of "why unban cheaters?" (who are not even, like, natives or anything) remains a fair one.

[Glacikaldr]

TIL you realise that mods respond to reports within hours in the worst case scenarios and usually within minutes, and that you should expect better of yourself than simply sending cheaters for me personally to deal with over on TRR's RMB. Not that I mind, but well established players like yourself should know better than to set poor precedent and let cheaters go free. To anyone reading this, this is your friend: <https://www.nationstates.net/page=help>.

I have no idea what you're on about, because we booted them many hours after they got themselves WA banned, lol. In two waves, no less. Then AIR let them back in for...? Hence the question.

The back half of your message is total nonsense. Not much else to be said there. Other than that all else aside, the question of "why unban cheaters?" (who are not even, like, natives or anything) remains a fair one.

I was speaking more generally as I believed that point had already been addressed.

I have just gone back to remind myself what SA's replies were, but I think they appropriately addressed the situation. Nevertheless, I'll speculatively elaborate on them if you want: though I'm sure you're perfectly capable of doing the same. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not just trying to be annoying though, and instead are genuinely curious and incapable or unwilling to work out what SA was saying.

"They cheated and faced the consequences", seems to imply that, because they have been WA banned as you say (and SA early raised the point that they must have been inexperienced at raiding to get themselves WA banned in the first place), SA felt that it was no longer his place to attack their character when the mods had already dealt with their breach of NS rules.

It seems a straightforward thought to me that once the mods deal with something and put in a solution like being WA banned, there isn't much reason to continue to punish a person (or persons in this case) with vengeance in mind.

Is there a more specific issue you have with SA's replies? Maybe I could reach out to him for you.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I have no idea what you're on about, because we booted them many hours after they got themselves WA banned, lol. In two waves, no less. Then AIR let them back in for...? Hence the question.

The back half of your message is total nonsense. Not much else to be said there. Other than that all else aside, the question of "why unban cheaters?" (who are not even, like, natives or anything) remains a fair one.

I was speaking more generally as I believed that point had already been addressed.

I have just gone back to remind myself what SA's replies were, but I think they appropriately addressed the situation. Nevertheless, I'll speculatively elaborate on them if you want: though I'm sure you're perfectly capable of doing the same. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not just trying to be annoying though, and instead are genuinely curious and incapable or unwilling to work out what SA was saying.

"They cheated and faced the consequences", seems to imply that, because they have been WA banned as you say (and SA early raised the point that they must have been inexperienced at raiding to get themselves WA banned in the first place), SA felt that it was no longer his place to attack their character when the mods had already dealt with their breach of NS rules.

It seems a straightforward thought to me that once the mods deal with something and put in a solution like being WA banned, there isn't much reason to continue to punish a person (or persons in this case) with vengeance in mind.

Is there a more specific issue you have with SA's replies? Maybe I could reach out to him for you.

Leaving an existing and justified ban up would be an "attack on character?" Strange concept.

There are plenty of times where it's appropriate to take action beyond what the mods do. "It's only worthy of action if it's worthy of mod action, and then the only action it's worthy of is said mod action" is a shitty view.

You interjected yourself in, I'll reply to you. Also, I don't think SA will be replying to much anymore, period.

[Glacikaldr]

I was speaking more generally as I believed that point had already been addressed.

I have just gone back to remind myself what SA's replies were, but I think they appropriately addressed the situation. Nevertheless, I'll speculatively elaborate on them if you want: though I'm sure you're perfectly capable of doing the same. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're not just trying to be annoying though, and instead are genuinely curious and incapable or unwilling to work out what SA was saying.

"They cheated and faced the consequences", seems to imply that, because they have been WA banned as you say (and SA early raised the point that they must have been inexperienced at raiding to get themselves WA banned in the first place), SA felt that it was no longer his place to attack their character when the mods had already dealt with their breach of NS rules.

It seems a straightforward thought to me that once the mods deal with something and put in a solution like being WA banned, there isn't much reason to continue to punish a person (or persons in this case) with vengeance in mind.

Is there a more specific issue you have with SA's replies? Maybe I could reach out to him for you.

Leaving an existing and justified ban up would be an "attack on character?" Strange concept.

There are plenty of times where it's appropriate to take action beyond what the mods do. "It's only worthy of action if it's worthy of mod action, and then the only action it's worthy of is said mod action" is a shitty view.

You interjected yourself in, I'll reply to you. Also, I don't think SA will be replying to much anymore, period.

That's where you and I seem to disagree then: because a consequence was made, that makes them no longer a GP threat, I believe lifting the ban is fair.

That being said, of course regions are allowed to do as they please as long as it remains within NS rules. For example, TRR has a RMB Policy and wr suppress messaged lodged in breach of said policy, irrespective of not being in breach of NS rules. This action beyond what mods do is justified by the legitimacy of TRR's government.

Yet, this observation should work both ways, within reason. If a region is free to banject players as it pleases on the grounds of rules that a majority accepts, then a region should too be free to unban players as it pleases on the grounds of consequences being enacted that a majority accepts (but in the case of NS rules, the majority doesn't even need to accept them - I have examples of this but I won't voice them here, and if you you have examples of faults on NS rules and consequences that you wish to raise, such as WA banning, I ask that you do not voice them here but do so in the appropriate subforum instead).

So, the view isn't, "it's only worthy of action if it's worthy of mod action, and then the only action it's worthy of is said mod action", but instead, "A legitimised regional government, representing the will of its players, may do as it so wishes". Scrutiny is always important, as it inspires introspection, but in this case - with SA's departure - I don't imagine any amount of introspection will do any good until SA's return. I also don't believe this practice of unbanning when there is no longer a threat is something SA will stop doing, unless that's the will of the majority in that particular case.

As for me replying and SA not, SA has informed me privately as well as AIR that he will not be particularly active for a time. That being said, I've always been there to reply to you Souls and this time will be no different. <3

If you think I haven't seen something I would have otherwise replied to, feel more than welcome to reach out to me directly with a link to it or what have you.

[All Wild Things]

Oh, Glack. Have somebody inform you about the Predator scandal, so you can reconsider your opinions about handling cheaters.

IMO, your views come across as really out-of-touch, and coming from me that's saying a lot.

For those who are wondering what the Predator scandal was:
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=594930

[RiderSyl]

Oh, Glack. Have somebody inform you about the Predator scandal, so you can reconsider your opinions about handling cheaters.

IMO, your views come across as really out-of-touch, and coming from me that's saying a lot.

For those who are wondering what the Predator scandal was:
https://www.nationstates.net/page=dispatch/id=594930

Thanks AWT. There's some inaccuracies in there, but overall, it does a good job of conveying exactly why Souls and other Gameplayers that had to deal with the fallout of Predator are so harsh on cheating.

[Blood Wine]

TIL antagonising cheaters is a bad thing.

Ridiculous. Let the NS moderators do their job without having to deal with you as well. Learn to address it appropriately.

Expecting standards from AIR? thats funny

Why? Is this Gay's stance as well? I'll keep that in mind.

Once again, Gay is uninvolved here

[Carolus Rex Francae]

I find it unfortunate that any group of regions can even begin to defend cheaters, and then refuse to apologize for doing so. There must be a mental circus going on, because boy, are there a lot of gymnastics.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

I find it unfortunate that any group of regions can even begin to defend cheaters, and then refuse to apologize for doing so. There must be a mental circus going on, because boy, are there a lot of gymnastics.

Myself, I have no idea who the guy who's defending the cheating actually is. Unless he's using an alt he's certainly nothing to do with AIR.

[Kurnugia]

Grabs popcorn

Gotta love dramamongering <3

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Grabs popcorn

Gotta love dramamongering <3

I don't plan to do drama tbh, I literally have no idea who he is.

[Blood Wine]

It takes two seconds to figure out that he's a fairly big deal in TRR

[Greater vakolicci haven]

It takes two seconds to figure out that he's a fairly big deal in TRR

Oh I'm aware of that.
Thus what he says reflects on TRR, not AIR.

[Blood Wine]

It takes two seconds to figure out that he's a fairly big deal in TRR

Oh I'm aware of that.
Thus what he says reflects on TRR, not AIR.

Actually, it doesn't - please learn some basic interregional diplomacy before sprouting off

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Oh I'm aware of that.
Thus what he says reflects on TRR, not AIR.

Actually, it doesn't - please learn some basic interregional diplomacy before sprouting off

We haven't requested his help in defending this. Anybody has a right to post in gameplay, as the mods have made clear many times before, and I and I'm sure most of air does not subscribe to his personal view on the acceptability of cheating.

[Glacikaldr]

Ridiculous. Let the NS moderators do their job without having to deal with you as well. Learn to address it appropriately.


Why? Is this Gay's stance as well? I'll keep that in mind.

Once again, Gay is uninvolved here

Oh my apologies. I saw you are their Regional Council & Foreign Minister and was merely curious. I missed the earlier messages, sorry.

I find it unfortunate that any group of regions can even begin to defend cheaters, and then refuse to apologize for doing so. There must be a mental circus going on, because boy, are there a lot of gymnastics.

To parrot what SA said a third time,... Actually let's make this a little more fun. A few years back, I had accidentally WA multi'ed. The mods pulled me aside, explained the situation and I corrected. I learnt from it and now my emails are all set up to stop that from happening ever again.

Now let's return to SA: from how I understand it, he recognised they were new (or just 'noob') raiders who didn't know what they were doing; he recognised himself having been once been in their position, but as a defender; he recognised that the moderators pulled them to the side and gave them the same consequences so many other players with similar circumstances have gotten (WA banned); and, he chose to give them a chance to play the game properly by letting them return to the region and approach it more appropriately if they took him up on the offer. Also, being WA banned made them no longer a threat anyway. Sure, they can still break other rules: but that'd lead to a DOS (I'd imagine) just like everyone else who continually breaks rules gameside from what I've experience as an Officer in TRR.

It takes two seconds to figure out that he's a fairly big deal in TRR

Oh I'm aware of that.
Thus what he says reflects on TRR, not AIR.

Actually I recently joined The LCRUA and AIR as well. My NSGP allegiance, and allegiance to The LCRUA, is disconnected to my Media Officer position in TRR, within reason of course. I won't go around doing anything ridiculous, but I think offering replies here is something that should be getting done anyway. For all intent and purposes, I'm replying here as a member of The LCRUA and a possibly something something in The LCRUA Times that will be determined if I can find the time to stick to it (I'll certainly make it for this publication in June but we'll just have to wait and see moving forward, if that's enough of a hint). We should talk over on the discord servers some time (I'm Nequedum over there).

[Drop Your Pants]

Actually, it doesn't - please learn some basic interregional diplomacy before sprouting off

Great hearing that from you

[Overthinkers]

Now let's return to SA: from how I understand it, he recognised they were new (or just 'noob') raiders who didn't know what they were doing; he recognised himself having been once been in their position, but as a defender; he recognised that the moderators pulled them to the side and gave them the same consequences so many other players with similar circumstances have gotten (WA banned); and, he chose to give them a chance to play the game properly by letting them return to the region and approach it more appropriately if they took him up on the offer. Also, being WA banned made them no longer a threat anyway. Sure, they can still break other rules: but that'd lead to a DOS (I'd imagine) just like everyone else who continually breaks rules gameside from what I've experience as an Officer in TRR.

I may be mistaken, but hasn't the "Cheat Clan" been warned multiple times? It's one thing if it was something they had to be set straight on and then move on, but if someone continues the same offense after the first mod warning (especially for something as clear-cut as WA multiing), they really shouldn't be defended.

[Kurnugia]

Grabs popcorn

Gotta love dramamongering <3

I don't plan to do drama tbh, I literally have no idea who he is.

Wasn't referring to you.