Out of the loop about Westphalia

[Jakker]

Or it could have been piled beforehand, if the sleeper was known with such certainty. That would've given more weight to the warning too - I don't know how strongly the point that Scrapper 142 was an invader was made, or whom it was directed to (a single person? all the ROs?), but it seems to have gone unacknowledged rather than have been openly rejected.

And the deployment in Iran is useless, imo.



It doesn't matter. Defenders did what they could, and it wasn't enough. It happened before, and will happen again.
Sometimes defenders could have done more, but were too careless: guessing that Rediar was a Raider sleeper didn't exactly need an intelligence wizard, and it still slipped through - that would be at least as humiliating as a native being slow to act on a defender warning. And that's not too mention raids involving dirty puppets, etc.
Sometimes natives are warned in generic terms, but don't act because they feel safe: before TPC was invaded, the native delegate was definitely keeping an eye on Eldorado Poe, but 'keeping an eye' wasn't enough.
The fuss about this was overblown. It wasn't even remotely close to "glaring native stupidity".

The only ones who should be blamed for the invasion are the invaders. Of course.

Yep, very true. If they'd not done this, we wouldn't be in this situation now of blaming one another.
So stop invading places, MK?

Yeah someone go tell MK to stop invading regions

[Arcellia]

Yep, very true. If they'd not done this, we wouldn't be in this situation now of blaming one another.
So stop invading places, MK?

Telling raiders to stop invading is never going to work. Otherwise raiders would have stopped raiding ten years ago or longer.

As far as I'm concerned, I do whatever is in the best interests of my GCR. My region's priorities are my priorities. If that includes raiding regions, so be it.

Would never even think of being purist raider again, but I do what EPSA requires of me.

[Fratt]

Yep, very true. If they'd not done this, we wouldn't be in this situation now of blaming one another.
So stop invading places, MK?

If all your other 6,000+ posts are equally intelligent I have to wonder how you are not DEAT for spamming ("a post that doesn't have any sort of use").

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Yep, very true. If they'd not done this, we wouldn't be in this situation now of blaming one another.
So stop invading places, MK?

If all your other 6,000+ posts are equally intelligent I have to wonder how you are not DEAT for spamming ("a post that doesn't have any sort of use").

Obvious sarcasm should have been obvious.

[Guy]

defenders try and fail miserably

That would imply we actively tried. A 100+ nation pile isn't exactly beatable. Plus, credit to TBH and Friends, their initial updater force was very formidable as well.

The fact of the matter is, we told Westphalia for months to get a password. We also identified Scrapped 142 as the sleeper and told Westphalia to ban him well in advance. They disregarded both of these critical pieces of advice.

We can only do so much. If natives aren't willing to also help themselves, even when they're being spoonfed what they need to do, then it's not going to end well for them. Hopefully Westphalia will serve as an effective reminder to other founderless natives that when Defenders tell you about something relating to your security, there's a pretty damn good chance that we're right. If you choose to live in a founderless UCR, you have to know the risks and you should try to address the risks.

This entire shitfest began with this post.

Tim was responding to the charge that defenders "try and fail miserably". He adequately pointed out that defenders cannot reasonably be expected to try to liberate Westphalia. The natural sequence of events right now, of course, should be a Liberation proposal followed by an actual liberation of the region.

However, my full expectation is that Westphalia will be returned to native hands within a day or two.

Another open question is about the supposed warnings of natives about the sleeper nation. It's up to us to try to find those. If the Westphalia WAD was advised to eject the sleeper, and did not do so, that's disappointing.

This is derived from another issue with R/D: A strong update force, coupled with good piling, is almost a game over scenario. There are some ways around it, but they require much more effort on the part of defenders than invaders. R/D is unbalanced, as it always was - invaders are simply taking advantage of it in Westphalia.

The other moanings about the state of defending don't deserve much attention, because they are simply inaccurate. I'm not saying that there are no issues, but there's no point responding to inaccurate criticisms either.

Oh, and I'm feeling like a broken record, but Nazi regions don't have the right to exist. Invading them rarely (if ever) helps anyone either.

[Galiantus III]

However, my full expectation is that Westphalia will be returned to native hands within a day or two.

Lolwhat? Do you have some information the rest of us don't have? 'cause I'm expecting the region will spend at least a year or two as a raider trophy. Perhaps more. I'd love to be proven wrong, but I just don't see that as a likely scenario.

Another open question is about the supposed warnings of natives about the sleeper nation. It's up to us to try to find those. If the Westphalia WAD was advised to eject the sleeper, and did not do so, that's disappointing.

Absolutely. One of the problems I had with Defenders when I first joined NS was that I saw them as a threat (albeit a lesser one than raiders) to regional sovereignty. This turn of events has, in my eyes, helped to reverse that perception of mine. If natives don't care about their own safety, that's their choice, and they suffer the consequences of that choice.

This is derived from another issue with R/D: A strong update force, coupled with good piling, is almost a game over scenario. There are some ways around it, but they require much more effort on the part of defenders than invaders. R/D is unbalanced, as it always was - invaders are simply taking advantage of it in Westphalia.

I've agree, for the most part. Westphalia is a perfect example of the imbalance to the game. We need some change to the game mechanics that can make it worth the effort to try and update on a region you don't have enough troops to outright invade or liberate - a way for a smaller force to get their foot in the door, so to speak.

That said, it ain't raider's fault there's a problem. They can only be blamed for what they do, and I give them full credit and high marks for their impressive and successful raid on Westphalia.

[Raionitu]

I've agree, for the most part. Westphalia is a perfect example of the imbalance to the game. We need some change to the game mechanics that can make it worth the effort to try and update on a region you don't have enough troops to outright invade or liberate - a way for a smaller force to get their foot in the door, so to speak.

I mean, sieging to reduce raider influence used to be a fairly common tactic. If you get a minimum of 31 fendas cross endorsing to jump in, that's over 1000 influence even if they don't endorse any natives. Do that once or twice, have any fendas that are out detagging/chasing move in and endorse natives, they could have created an influence deficit that would have pushed a complete emptying and lockdown far enough into the raid that we would have decided it wasn't worth it.

[Fauxia]

I've agree, for the most part. Westphalia is a perfect example of the imbalance to the game. We need some change to the game mechanics that can make it worth the effort to try and update on a region you don't have enough troops to outright invade or liberate - a way for a smaller force to get their foot in the door, so to speak.

I mean, sieging to reduce raider influence used to be a fairly common tactic. If you get a minimum of 31 fendas cross endorsing to jump in, that's over 1000 influence even if they don't endorse any natives. Do that once or twice, have any fendas that are out detagging/chasing move in and endorse natives, they could have created an influence deficit that would have pushed a complete emptying and lockdown far enough into the raid that we would have decided it wasn't worth it.

Generally doesn’t happen when piling forces are so large that no it seems like you can’t liberate it... there are ways to force liberations without outupdating, but it’s difficult, and seems a tall order when raiders have 120+ endos

[Raionitu]

I mean, sieging to reduce raider influence used to be a fairly common tactic. If you get a minimum of 31 fendas cross endorsing to jump in, that's over 1000 influence even if they don't endorse any natives. Do that once or twice, have any fendas that are out detagging/chasing move in and endorse natives, they could have created an influence deficit that would have pushed a complete emptying and lockdown far enough into the raid that we would have decided it wasn't worth it.

Generally doesn’t happen when piling forces are so large that no it seems like you can’t liberate it... there are ways to force liberations without outupdating, but it’s difficult, and seems a tall order when raiders have 120+ endos

It wouldn't have done much towards forcing us out, but it could have made it too costly influence wise to lock and empty. That's what I was saying. There are defender tactics that I think are underutilized. Though, tbh, most of the time I've heard defenders use the term siege, has been when they had enough updaters to liberate, and just didn't pull it off, so maybe it's not really a tactic.

[Indo-Malaysia]

Generally doesn’t happen when piling forces are so large that no it seems like you can’t liberate it... there are ways to force liberations without outupdating, but it’s difficult, and seems a tall order when raiders have 120+ endos

It wouldn't have done much towards forcing us out, but it could have made it too costly influence wise to lock and empty. That's what I was saying. There are defender tactics that I think are underutilized. Though, tbh, most of the time I've heard defenders use the term siege, has been when they had enough updaters to liberate, and just didn't pull it off, so maybe it's not really a tactic.

I blame the dreaded lurgy siege fatigue

[Topid]

I've agree, for the most part. Westphalia is a perfect example of the imbalance to the game. We need some change to the game mechanics that can make it worth the effort to try and update on a region you don't have enough troops to outright invade or liberate - a way for a smaller force to get their foot in the door, so to speak.

I mean, sieging to reduce raider influence used to be a fairly common tactic. If you get a minimum of 31 fendas cross endorsing to jump in, that's over 1000 influence even if they don't endorse any natives. Do that once or twice, have any fendas that are out detagging/chasing move in and endorse natives, they could have created an influence deficit that would have pushed a complete emptying and lockdown far enough into the raid that we would have decided it wasn't worth it.

The old tactics aren't as relevant now that literally any raider nation can use all of its influence in the region. You can only have 12 border control officers at a time but you could move them around as needed.

Those missions were some of my favorites though. I liked trying to be the first person to 'cross' on the nations showing up in Kyzikos / joining the WA.

*waves walking staff at the youth angrily*

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

It’s worth noting in reply, Topid, that here in Westphalia we performed very few actions as RO’s. Most of the ejections were performed by cycling nations through the delegate seat at end of op, at first via sling shot and later by just endorsement shifts. Only some of our own piler ejections, a few randos throughout, and the last 2 or 3 natives just to save time were ejected by RO. It saves us a considerable amount of time to use the delegate seat when safe to do so over having the RO’s perform it at double costs.

[Yurizlansia]

Correct forum indeed, as military gameplay belongs in: Gameplay. Welcome to the board!

Westphalia was a Defender region part of an alliance named SWORD. Recently, it had been invaded by raiders such as The Black Hawks.

There's a bit more than the simplified version I will tell you, but here's it bullet pointed:

- Unknown has beef with Westphalia
- Westphalia joins SWORD
- Westphalia's founder nation ceases-to-exist, leaving the region vulnerable
- Raiders invade Westphalia, occupying it with around 90-120 real players
- Occupation lasts several days with little to no resistance
- Raiders voluntarily end occupation- with a catch: 2 would remain to maintain control, and the region would be handed to Unknown to settle old scores

What was Westphalia's beef with Unknown?

[Klaus Devestatorie]

What was Westphalia's beef with Unknown?

Their founder used to also be the leader of a close ally, New Earth. One day, he went nuts- he destroyed the forums of New Earth (an enormous taboo in NS Gameplay) and then attempted to blame a member of Unknown for it. When that failed, he used his other regions (Westphalia and Islandia, both willing and enthusiastic participants at the time) to declare war on Unknown, and waged both a lengthy propaganda campaign and several efforts to retake New Earth itself (left founderless because the mods took issue with him and DEATed that account).

I'm fairly disgusted (but not surprised) by how many people and regions, especially within gameplay, have been prepared to overlook that due to the raider/defender divide, when we'd been doing so well for several years on bipartisan action there. The region of Westphalia is under raider control, but their community and government survive at RHINIA, and that's more than what their leadership left New Earth with.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

What was Westphalia's beef with Unknown?

Their founder used to also be the leader of a close ally, New Earth. One day, he went nuts- he destroyed the forums of New Earth (an enormous taboo in NS Gameplay) and then attempted to blame a member of Unknown for it. When that failed, he used his other regions (Westphalia and Islandia, both willing and enthusiastic participants at the time) to declare war on Unknown, and waged both a lengthy propaganda campaign and several efforts to retake New Earth itself (left founderless because the mods took issue with him and DEATed that account).

I'm fairly disgusted (but not surprised) by how many people and regions, especially within gameplay, have been prepared to overlook that due to the raider/defender divide, when we'd been doing so well for several years on bipartisan action there. The region of Westphalia is under raider control, but their community and government survive at RHINIA, and that's more than what their leadership left New Earth with.

I remember talking to you about that back when I was both an idiot and trying to be a raider.
I didn't understand it at the time and I didn't know that the founder was a forum destroyer.
However, I must ask: was their leader active in Westphalia at the time? I thought he literally forgot his password.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

Their founder used to also be the leader of a close ally, New Earth. One day, he went nuts- he destroyed the forums of New Earth (an enormous taboo in NS Gameplay) and then attempted to blame a member of Unknown for it. When that failed, he used his other regions (Westphalia and Islandia, both willing and enthusiastic participants at the time) to declare war on Unknown, and waged both a lengthy propaganda campaign and several efforts to retake New Earth itself (left founderless because the mods took issue with him and DEATed that account).

I'm fairly disgusted (but not surprised) by how many people and regions, especially within gameplay, have been prepared to overlook that due to the raider/defender divide, when we'd been doing so well for several years on bipartisan action there. The region of Westphalia is under raider control, but their community and government survive at RHINIA, and that's more than what their leadership left New Earth with.

I remember talking to you about that back when I was both an idiot and trying to be a raider.
I didn't understand it at the time and I didn't know that the founder was a forum destroyer.
However, I must ask: was their leader active in Westphalia at the time? I thought he literally forgot his password.

He forgot his password much more recently, else we would have seen Westphalia burn to the ground years and years ago.

[Yurizlansia]

What was Westphalia's beef with Unknown?

Their founder used to also be the leader of a close ally, New Earth. One day, he went nuts- he destroyed the forums of New Earth (an enormous taboo in NS Gameplay) and then attempted to blame a member of Unknown for it. When that failed, he used his other regions (Westphalia and Islandia, both willing and enthusiastic participants at the time) to declare war on Unknown, and waged both a lengthy propaganda campaign and several efforts to retake New Earth itself (left founderless because the mods took issue with him and DEATed that account).

I'm fairly disgusted (but not surprised) by how many people and regions, especially within gameplay, have been prepared to overlook that due to the raider/defender divide, when we'd been doing so well for several years on bipartisan action there. The region of Westphalia is under raider control, but their community and government survive at RHINIA, and that's more than what their leadership left New Earth with.

I'm not new to NS, but I am unfamiliar with gameplay between nations. So I'm just a bit confused on this question:

Why is it so bad to delete a forum?

[Klaus Devestatorie]

Their founder used to also be the leader of a close ally, New Earth. One day, he went nuts- he destroyed the forums of New Earth (an enormous taboo in NS Gameplay) and then attempted to blame a member of Unknown for it. When that failed, he used his other regions (Westphalia and Islandia, both willing and enthusiastic participants at the time) to declare war on Unknown, and waged both a lengthy propaganda campaign and several efforts to retake New Earth itself (left founderless because the mods took issue with him and DEATed that account).

I'm fairly disgusted (but not surprised) by how many people and regions, especially within gameplay, have been prepared to overlook that due to the raider/defender divide, when we'd been doing so well for several years on bipartisan action there. The region of Westphalia is under raider control, but their community and government survive at RHINIA, and that's more than what their leadership left New Earth with.

I'm not new to NS, but I am unfamiliar with gameplay between nations. So I'm just a bit confused on this question:

Why is it so bad to delete a forum?

Most regions in mainstream NS Gameplay have based their entire regional communities and governments through offsite forums (although Discord only regions like your own are increasingly becoming a thing). All of their laws, citizenship records, cultural activities, government information, whatever you can think of, would be on that forum, along with most out of context discussion. The deletion of a forum usually resulted in the loss of all of those things because most regions don't think to back it up (or don't have a forum with that functionality), and those losses usually resulted in the death of that region. Forum destruction doesn't happen anywhere near as much as it used to (probably why so few people seem to treat it seriously- they haven't dealt with it themselves), but it used to be a popular tool of self styled terrorists and extremist organizations.

[Lenlyvit]

Their founder used to also be the leader of a close ally, New Earth. One day, he went nuts- he destroyed the forums of New Earth (an enormous taboo in NS Gameplay) and then attempted to blame a member of Unknown for it. When that failed, he used his other regions (Westphalia and Islandia, both willing and enthusiastic participants at the time) to declare war on Unknown, and waged both a lengthy propaganda campaign and several efforts to retake New Earth itself (left founderless because the mods took issue with him and DEATed that account).

I'm fairly disgusted (but not surprised) by how many people and regions, especially within gameplay, have been prepared to overlook that due to the raider/defender divide, when we'd been doing so well for several years on bipartisan action there. The region of Westphalia is under raider control, but their community and government survive at RHINIA, and that's more than what their leadership left New Earth with.

I'm not new to NS, but I am unfamiliar with gameplay between nations. So I'm just a bit confused on this question:

Why is it so bad to delete a forum?

Because a forum holds a regions, and a communities, history. By deleting a forum you're literally destroying everything the region worked to create, and destroying their records. Forum destruction is something that should not be done.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Their founder used to also be the leader of a close ally, New Earth. One day, he went nuts- he destroyed the forums of New Earth (an enormous taboo in NS Gameplay) and then attempted to blame a member of Unknown for it. When that failed, he used his other regions (Westphalia and Islandia, both willing and enthusiastic participants at the time) to declare war on Unknown, and waged both a lengthy propaganda campaign and several efforts to retake New Earth itself (left founderless because the mods took issue with him and DEATed that account).

I'm fairly disgusted (but not surprised) by how many people and regions, especially within gameplay, have been prepared to overlook that due to the raider/defender divide, when we'd been doing so well for several years on bipartisan action there. The region of Westphalia is under raider control, but their community and government survive at RHINIA, and that's more than what their leadership left New Earth with.

I'm not new to NS, but I am unfamiliar with gameplay between nations. So I'm just a bit confused on this question:

Why is it so bad to delete a forum?

When you delete a forum, you erase a regions history and community. You also erase the often not inconsiderable efforts of many members.

Obviously, that's different from someone making a forum unavailable for a few days to move it or the like.

[Topid]

What was Westphalia's beef with Unknown?

Their founder used to also be the leader of a close ally, New Earth. One day, he went nuts- he destroyed the forums of New Earth (an enormous taboo in NS Gameplay) and then attempted to blame a member of Unknown for it. When that failed, he used his other regions (Westphalia and Islandia, both willing and enthusiastic participants at the time) to declare war on Unknown, and waged both a lengthy propaganda campaign and several efforts to retake New Earth itself (left founderless because the mods took issue with him and DEATed that account).

I'm fairly disgusted (but not surprised) by how many people and regions, especially within gameplay, have been prepared to overlook that due to the raider/defender divide, when we'd been doing so well for several years on bipartisan action there. The region of Westphalia is under raider control, but their community and government survive at RHINIA, and that's more than what their leadership left New Earth with.

I remember a time years ago when Unknown was abhorred by the idea that an act of forum destruction by a single member of the region was something that should be held against the whole region.

Zingers aside, I would generally say you are as right now as you were wrong then. (Okay, the zingers are actually aside now.)

And it is worth mentioning in reply to Souls, that you would have if you needed to, but yes it is a far more efficient use of influence not to if you have the luxury. The broader point is that it does not reflect really a change in defender ability or willingness to help natives that they don't just hurl walls of swapped endorsements at occupied regions. It seems just as likely to me that there is now a realization that while yes it would still cost raiders a good chunk of influence. They can now spend basically limitless hunks of influence. Whereas in my day raiders could only use one person's chunk at a time, and that person could only be changed every 24 hours. Now it is only 13 people's chunks at a time, and twelve of those can be changed as often as needed. The other is once every 12 hours. You could have just devoted half of your RO positions to clearing out the defenders that jumped and left the lead and potential leads unaffected totally. Looking at it realistically, more is not done during massive piles because the game lacks any real useful ways to respond to massive piles. That'd be why [they're] a big ol snoozer.

[edit]: I used the wrong one.

[Topid]

When you delete a forum, you erase a regions history and community. You also erase the often not inconsiderable efforts of many members.

Obviously, that's different from someone making a forum unavailable for a few days to move it or the like.

By the way, it is obviously also different than erasing thousands of pages of RMB posts. Not sure why - the logic is fuzzy. But it definitely is because TBH is going to do it without a second thought.

Probably because when we first decided region destruction was okay and forum destruction was bad the RMB didn't store messages permanently, and once an ideological trench is entered into one must never allow reconsideration.

[Klaus Devestatorie]

When you delete a forum, you erase a regions history and community. You also erase the often not inconsiderable efforts of many members.

Obviously, that's different from someone making a forum unavailable for a few days to move it or the like.

By the way, it is obviously also different than erasing thousands of pages of RMB posts. Not sure why - the logic is fuzzy. But it definitely is because TBH is going to do it without a second thought.

Probably because when we first decided region destruction was okay and forum destruction was bad the RMB didn't store messages permanently, and once an ideological trench is entered into one must never allow reconsideration.

We're being generous and helping them save those, actually.

[Raionitu]

By the way, it is obviously also different than erasing thousands of pages of RMB posts. Not sure why - the logic is fuzzy. But it definitely is because TBH is going to do it without a second thought.

How and where are we gonna do it? We don't control Westphalia or have any nations still in there. Both ROs are unknowns, and it is officially their region now.

[Unibot III]

I'm fairly disgusted (but not surprised) by how many people and regions, especially within gameplay, have been prepared to overlook that due to the raider/defender divide, when we'd been doing so well for several years on bipartisan action there. The region of Westphalia is under raider control, but their community and government survive at RHINIA, and that's more than what their leadership left New Earth with.

People aren't overlooking it, they just know it's bullshit to burn a region down for something they didn't know anything about. You picked a fight with Mike and you're using an innocent community to get to him.