Out of the loop about Westphalia

[Granluras]

Since I joined NationStates a few days ago Westphalia is a topic I’ve heard being discussed many times. Being the newcomer that I am, I am utterly clueless as to the details, history and global significance of the entire Westphalia fiasco. Can anyone explain the entire situation to me? Thanks.

Is this the right forum to be posting this in?

[Tinhampton]

In short: a fuckton of raider groups (speared by the Black Hawks) take over about 30 days ago, defenders try and fail miserably, all natives eventually booted and the region permanently held under lockdown.

[Indo-Malaysia]

Correct forum indeed, as military gameplay belongs in: Gameplay. Welcome to the board!

Westphalia was a Defender region part of an alliance named SWORD. Recently, it had been invaded by raiders such as The Black Hawks.

There's a bit more than the simplified version I will tell you, but here's it bullet pointed:

- Unknown has beef with Westphalia
- Westphalia joins SWORD
- Westphalia's founder nation ceases-to-exist, leaving the region vulnerable
- Raiders invade Westphalia, occupying it with around 90-120 real players
- Occupation lasts several days with little to no resistance
- Raiders voluntarily end occupation- with a catch: 2 would remain to maintain control, and the region would be handed to Unknown to settle old scores

[Tim-Opolis]

defenders try and fail miserably

That would imply we actively tried. A 100+ nation pile isn't exactly beatable. Plus, credit to TBH and Friends, their initial updater force was very formidable as well.

The fact of the matter is, we told Westphalia for months to get a password. We also identified Scrapped 142 as the sleeper and told Westphalia to ban him well in advance. They disregarded both of these critical pieces of advice.

We can only do so much. If natives aren't willing to also help themselves, even when they're being spoonfed what they need to do, then it's not going to end well for them. Hopefully Westphalia will serve as an effective reminder to other founderless natives that when Defenders tell you about something relating to your security, there's a pretty damn good chance that we're right. If you choose to live in a founderless UCR, you have to know the risks and you should try to address the risks.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Geez, tell the plebs how The Grey Wardens really feel about fellow defenders facing the destruction of their region.

[Tim-Opolis]

Geez, tell the plebs how The Grey Wardens really feel about fellow defenders facing the destruction of their region.

It's a personal opinion, not an organization opinion.

Sorry that I'd rather tell it how it is rather than coddle people and tell them that they totally did everything they could. Had Westphalia listened to the advice presented to them, they would still be here rather than being a TBH trophy. Them's the facts.

[Fauxia]

Geez, tell the plebs how The Grey Wardens really feel about fellow defenders facing the destruction of their region.

It's a personal opinion, not an organization opinion.

Sorry that I'd rather tell it how it is rather than coddle people and tell them that they totally did everything they could. Had Westphalia listened to the advice presented to them, they would still be here rather than being a TBH trophy. Them's the facts.

And if the founder hadn’t forgotten the password to the founder nation...

[Glen-Rhodes]

Geez, tell the plebs how The Grey Wardens really feel about fellow defenders facing the destruction of their region.

It's a personal opinion, not an organization opinion.

Sorry that I'd rather tell it how it is rather than coddle people and tell them that they totally did everything they could. Had Westphalia listened to the advice presented to them, they would still be here rather than being a TBH trophy. Them's the facts.

You're a defender. You're high ranking in The Grey Wardens, the biggest name in defending for now. If your idea of defending is expecting perfection from inexperienced players, then placing all blame and attacking them when their region is destroyed, I genuinely have no clue how you've risen through the ranks. Your role as a defender leader is to teach the inexperienced, protect them regardless, and help them learn after failure. Not to call natives coddled and stupid and blame them for TBH's region destruction.

[Drop Your Pants]

Your role as a defender leader is to teach the inexperienced, protect them regardless, and help them learn after failure. Not to call natives coddled and stupid and blame them for TBH's region destruction.

Times have changed (thankfully). Moral's are out the door, as well as most of the fossils.

[Fauxia]

It's a personal opinion, not an organization opinion.

Sorry that I'd rather tell it how it is rather than coddle people and tell them that they totally did everything they could. Had Westphalia listened to the advice presented to them, they would still be here rather than being a TBH trophy. Them's the facts.

You're a defender. You're high ranking in The Grey Wardens, the biggest name in defending for now. If your idea of defending is expecting perfection from inexperienced players, then placing all blame and attacking them when their region is destroyed, I genuinely have no clue how you've risen through the ranks. Your role as a defender leader is to teach the inexperienced, protect them regardless, and help them learn after failure. Not to call natives coddled and stupid and blame them for TBH's region destruction.

It isn't about perfection from inexperienced players, though. It's about those same inexperienced players listening to the experienced players who give them advice and intelligence. Defenders did exactly what you say Tim needs to do and Westphalia chose not to listen. The natives were told who to eject on multiple occasions, without listening (I believe also from SWORD as well- the group they are supposed to be a member of, so they should listen to them). That just seems like a ridiculous oversight to me. Plus they were told multiple times they were on the hit list of some invaders and should password. It might be different in cases where a raid only could have been prevented. In this case, it not only could have been prevented, it, in all right, should have been prevented. Defenders are annoyed that they had to deal with an unbreakable piler coalition on a region that should not have been raided in the first place. Or are we not allowed to be annoyed when there are huge security oversights anymore? Defenders are just supposed to take the blame, regardless of whether they deserve it or not. And you can't be angry at natives who completely ignored security advice to those who would know about it.

[Tim-Opolis]

You're a defender. You're high ranking in The Grey Wardens, the biggest name in defending for now. If your idea of defending is expecting perfection from inexperienced players, then placing all blame and attacking them when their region is destroyed, I genuinely have no clue how you've risen through the ranks. Your role as a defender leader is to teach the inexperienced, protect them regardless, and help them learn after failure. Not to call natives coddled and stupid and blame them for TBH's region destruction.

Frankly, I'm not sure how some armchair activist has any place telling me what Defending is about. I've put in more than 250 updates for the Wardens, and a couple hundred prior to that too. What have you done, besides for being Unibot's political lapdog for a couple years? Let me spell it out for you again, within your own definition of my role even. We attempted to teach the inexperienced natives of Westphalia how to secure their region. They ignored us, repeatedly. We regularly worked to protect them anyway, because that's what we do. Then, we identified a Black Hawk sleeper in their region. We told them exactly what nation it was, and they disregarded us. We still kept keeping an eye on the region for them. Then a massive updater force from TBH and Friends hit their region during an update. We couldn't stop it, because there's only so much we can do. However, we persisted. We advised them to not submit an awfully-written far-too-preemptive Liberation proposal. They once again disregarded us, and the Liberation proposal was shot to hell in the vote. Defenders did what we could. Westphalia fell because it's natives, under numerous circumstances, failed to take the proper steps to secure their region.

Please, though, lecture me more about what I'm supposed to do, oh wise one.

[Unibot III]

Your role as a defender leader is to teach the inexperienced, protect them regardless, and help them learn after failure. Not to call natives coddled and stupid and blame them for TBH's region destruction.

Times have changed (thankfully). Moral's are out the door, as well as most of the fossils.

Sorry, who’s the fossil? You’ve lost me. Which one of us joined in 2005?

Decency is out the door. Not to mention, conviction.

This isn’t the way to talk about native communities who are in the process of losing their region. The real problem with defenders today is they’re so eager to get the approval of smarmy neutrals here on the Gameplay subforum, they’re more than willing to shit on natives to get it. You guys deserve the “fenda” slur that you’ve adopted. It’s like watching kids wearing oversized jeans to ‘look cool.’ I guess it’s up to “Gramps” to tell y’all you look ridiculous.

What have you done, besides for being Unibot's political lapdog for a couple years?

If for the past ten years, Glen has been my lapdog, I demand a refund because he's never stopped arguing with me from the moment we became friends in the WA. It's not what Glen-Rhodes has done in defenderdom, but what he never did - he was never a dick to natives. And it doesn't take fucking Moses to figure out it's beneath the role of defender to blame natives.

[Lord Dominator]

Woah, felling a bit spicy today Uni?

[Jakker]

It would be fun to see moral defenders make a comeback and truly give NS the chance to see which type of defending is the most effective.

Edit: and I like Tupelope's idea of bringing back moral defenders who destroyed forums as well.

[Tupelope]

It would be fun to see moral defenders make a comeback and truly give NS the chance to see which type of defending is the most effective.

Edit: and I like Tupelope's idea of bringing back moral defenders who destroyed forums as well.

hey i deleted cuz i couldnt remember if it was defenders or raiders who did that my memory is foggy

[Jakker]

It would be fun to see moral defenders make a comeback and truly give NS the chance to see which type of defending is the most effective.

Edit: and I like Tupelope's idea of bringing back moral defenders who destroyed forums as well.

hey i deleted cuz i couldnt remember if it was defenders or raiders who did that my memory is foggy

You were not wrong that defenders like RLA were involved in forum destruction.

[Tim-Opolis]

hey i deleted cuz i couldnt remember if it was defenders or raiders who did that my memory is foggy

You were not wrong that defenders like RLA were involved in forum destruction.

He also wasn't wrong that invaders like Unknown were involved in forum destruction. I mean if we're bringing up scandals in each others factions, let me know, so I can remind you about Predator for the 500th time

I guess it’s up to “Gramps” to tell y’all you look ridiculous.

What's also ridiculous is tiptoeing around admissions of guilt just vaguely enough to avoid getting punished. Go back to your retirement home.

[Drop Your Pants]

Sorry, who’s the fossil? You’ve lost me. Which one of us joined in 2005?

Oh I'm a fossil and proud. But this fossil's wheelchair still works, if a little slow and squeaky. I haven't melded with the bedrock of spite and moaning that is old R/D.

[Glen-Rhodes]

The condescending attitudes towards natives are exactly why it’s been so easy to villainize defenders. So while you can pat yourself on the back, Tim, by calling simple empathy too moralistic for modern day defenders, you’re only building a weak foundation that will crumble in the future when newbies look at TGW and think, “Wow these guys are pretty full of themselves.”

And I can only imagine what the rest of the defender community thinks about being looked down upon for simply caring about natives. You may admit that you don’t care one iota about them, but the defender community at large does. And your response is to call it out of touch moralism, and connect caring about natives to being a “lapdog” to Unibot.

Also, let’s not pretend that you and the rest of the defender establishment fumbled on the Liberation proposal. Fratt made obvious points that the idea that a Liberation would make Westphalian insecure was wrong. You guys charged forward anyways with lobbying against it— you as part of the TSP Cabinet have the official recommendation to vote against it. Here we are 3 weeks later and Westphalia is just another destroyed region that will be refounded as a trophy for TBH and Unknown. While TGW was bickering with TBH about whether or not Westphalia was technically a defender region, the defender establishment joined arm in arm with raiders to defeat the only chance at stopping the destruction everybody saw coming. Now y’all are standing there looking around and going, “Wait, did nobody rewrite it 2 weeks later like we said needed to be done when we helped kill it?”

Westphalia is another failure of the defender establishment to protect a region from destruction. Every defender org and region involved in killing the Liberation should genuinely reevaluate their strategy in the SC. And TGW should rethink its PR move of labeling natives as nothing more than obstacles in their way of fighting raiders. If that’s not the stance of TGW, then their commanders should probably avoid making it appear so.

[Pergamon]

The condescending attitudes towards natives are exactly why it’s been so easy to villainize defenders. So while you can pat yourself on the back, Tim, by calling simple empathy too moralistic for modern day defenders, you’re only building a weak foundation that will crumble in the future when newbies look at TGW and think, “Wow these guys are pretty full of themselves.”

And I can only imagine what the rest of the defender community thinks about being looked down upon for simply caring about natives. You may admit that you don’t care one iota about them, but the defender community at large does. And your response is to call it out of touch moralism, and connect caring about natives to being a “lapdog” to Unibot.

Also, let’s not pretend that you and the rest of the defender establishment fumbled on the Liberation proposal. Fratt made obvious points that the idea that a Liberation would make Westphalian insecure was wrong. You guys charged forward anyways with lobbying against it— you as part of the TSP Cabinet have the official recommendation to vote against it. Here we are 3 weeks later and Westphalia is just another destroyed region that will be refounded as a trophy for TBH and Unknown. While TGW was bickering with TBH about whether or not Westphalia was technically a defender region, the defender establishment joined arm in arm with raiders to defeat the only chance at stopping the destruction everybody saw coming. Now y’all are standing there looking around and going, “Wait, did nobody rewrite it 2 weeks later like we said needed to be done when we helped kill it?”

Westphalia is another failure of the defender establishment to protect a region from destruction. Every defender org and region involved in killing the Liberation should genuinely reevaluate their strategy in the SC. And TGW should rethink its PR move of labeling natives as nothing more than obstacles in their way of fighting raiders. If that’s not the stance of TGW, then their commanders should probably avoid making it appear so.

Morals < Logic.
TGW has a logic consistency and I always cherished the fact that they tend to quit defensive operations if they no longer promise any success due to the stupidity of the "less capable nations". (To put it into nice words: e.g. specifically people that cannot be helped and refuse to accept any aid or listen to meaningful advice). In the end it's the natives' fault, isn't it?
The cold rationality is what was lacking on Defender side. I really, really appreciate this change. It was yet another step into the direction of an orderly game world, where facts, rationality and reason define scenarios - action and consequence - and not irrational and pitiful morals which should have been cut altogether years and years ago.
Could have saved some GCRs from ruin and spared me from some atrocious battles against foolish people, with foolish beliefs that just love to play the hero in here too much without using their brain.

[Prusswitonsiakekingkailand]

Honestly every time I hear the word "Westphalia" I think "WESTPHAAALIA BORN AND RAISED", then I realize its a region that was raided and it gives me a short kick of anger. The part of "Westphalia being raided" that bothers me is that Westphalia is such a good name and gives so much possibility for a region theme wise.

Honestly, i'm half out of the loop, and half on the front lines.

[Big Bad Badger]

Your role as a defender leader is to teach the inexperienced, protect them regardless, and help them learn after failure. Not to call natives coddled and stupid and blame them for TBH's region destruction.

Times have changed (thankfully). Moral's are out the door, as well as most of the fossils.

Not enough of the fossils are out the door as evident by this thread...

[Jar Wattinree]

It's practically a living museum.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

At this point y’all might as well explain a decade+ of defender infighting too, becuase I can’t imagine the poor OP feels any more in the loop with y’alls bickering.

[Jar Wattinree]

At this point y’all might as well explain a decade+ of defender infighting too, becuase I can’t imagine the poor OP feels any more in the loop with y’alls bickering.

I was gonna say, you can learn a lot just by watching the elite argue constantly in GP.