NationStates

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:00 pm**

Unibot III wrote:
Mallorea and Riva wrote:

The New Balder Order would not be a very likable government.

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:56 pm**

Imagine if Rachel were to be suddenly ejected from the WA or deleted. Then Balder's leadership defaults to NES immediately, who is not particularly active:

Most Recent Government Activity: 3 days ago

Presumably, TNP and Euro would immediately begin piling in to support NES' account and prop them up. But it really would all depend on what NES did or didn't do in the next seventy two hours.

The delegacy would have lost fifty endorsements or so dropping from Rachel to NES. I think it's fair to say TNP & Euro could get near to closing gap. However, if Rachel has fifty more native endorsements, that means they're out there! In theory, an anonymous tarter who arrived in Balder early when the hammer dropped could out-trade an inactive vice delegate and take the delegacy over a few days. The real problem is regional influence, which Francos didn't face. NES would still have regional influence - loads of it. Francos ejected TheDoc by August 29, but I think it'd take a bit more than five months for the couper to eject NES; to expedite that process and keep their position, the couper would have to be running a very ruthless (and successful) barrage of unendorsement messages to the endorsees of NES.

It's a long shot, but there would be advantages in the couper's corner. Francos was able to criticize TheDoc for his unreliability and focus on knocking the resistance's credibility. There would be similar lines of discussion - accurate or not - to trot out in the case of Balder. Moreover, Balder's regime would receive foreign support that was distributed in a very partisan manner. Defenders would hold off helping - and independents might go overboard and give the couper fuel to use for his/her propaganda, which Francos pioneered in his fight against the ADN. This all would be, essentially, the Francos method: (1) take advantage of extraordinary circumstances, (2) tart, (3) stay quiet and anonymous during the initial takeover and then ridicule and delegitimize your opponents upon taking the delegacy, (4) exploit update mechanics.

Only in your wildest fantasies, Unibot. :lol:

I think you are getting a bit ahead of yourself, assuming that because I hadn't logged into the nation for 3 days that I was not around - watching. Always watching.

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:11 pm**

North East Somerset wrote:
Imagine if Rachel were to be suddenly ejected from the WA or deleted. Then Balder's leadership defaults to NES immediately, who is not particularly active:

Most Recent Government Activity: 3 days ago

Presumably, TNP and Euro would immediately begin piling in to support NES' account and prop them up. But it really would all depend on what NES did or didn't do in the next seventy two hours.

The delegacy would have lost fifty endorsements or so dropping from Rachel to NES. I think it's fair to say TNP & Euro could get near to closing gap. However, if Rachel has fifty more native endorsements, that means they're out there! In theory, an anonymous tarter who arrived in Balder early when the hammer dropped could out-trade an inactive vice delegate and take the delegacy over a few days. The real problem is regional influence, which Francos didn't face. NES would still have regional influence - loads of it. Francos ejected TheDoc by August 29, but I think it'd take a bit more than five months for the couper to eject NES; to expedite that process and keep their position, the couper would have to be running a very ruthless (and successful) barrage of unendorsement messages to the endorsees of NES.

It's a long shot, but there would be advantages in the couper's corner. Francos was able to criticize TheDoc for his unreliability and focus on knocking the resistance's credibility. There would be similar lines of discussion - accurate or not - to trot out in the case of Balder. Moreover, Balder's regime would receive foreign support that was distributed in a very partisan manner. Defenders would hold off helping - and independents might go overboard and give the couper fuel to use for his/her propaganda, which Francos pioneered in his fight against the ADN. This all would be, essentially, the Francos method: (1) take advantage of extraordinary circumstances, (2) tart, (3) stay quiet and anonymous during the initial takeover and then ridicule and delegitimize your opponents upon taking the delegacy, (4) exploit update mechanics.

Only in your wildest fantasies, Unibot.

I think you are getting a bit ahead of yourself, assuming that because I hadn't logged into the nation for 3 days that I was not around - watching. Always watching.

NES is best

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:28 pm**

Fauxia wrote:It’s amazing that an obscurity did this. I mean, imagine if an anonymous nation nobody’s heard of coup’ed one of the Feeders now. Do you think that would be possible?

Wasn't Sedge/Devonitians the last one to do this? Devonitians wasn't known and seemingly managed to endotart his way to the delegacy.

This was in 2011 when all the tools are available, TSP's security apparatus was just that slack.

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:52 pm**

Oh no, I think I may have actually have found Francos Spain's first main account by pure accident while researching something else.

Mid-level Farker/Pirate that participated in the invasion of America.
Communist-themed.
Later stashed as a puppet in Spain for a few years.

Urrrgh. I'll keep the name a secret, I think. But yeah, it's out there...

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:06 pm**

Unibot III wrote:Oh no, I think I may have actually have found Francos Spain's first main account by pure accident while researching something else.

Mid-level Farker/Pirate that participated in the invasion of America.
Communist-themed.
Later stashed as a puppet in Spain for a few years.
Urrrgh. I'll keep the name a secret, I think. But yeah, it's out there...

I'm not well-versed in early NS history, so if I may ask, did or does anyone know Francos personally?

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:21 pm**

Unibot III wrote:Oh no, I think I may have actually have found Francos Spain's first main account by pure accident while researching something else.

Mid-level Farker/Pirate that participated in the invasion of America.
Communist-themed.
Later stashed as a puppet in Spain for a few years.
Urrrgh. I'll keep the name a secret, I think. But yeah, it's out there...

Dude, now you have to reveal it!

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:38 pm**

Unibot III wrote:Oh no, I think I may have actually have found Francos Spain's first main account by pure accident while researching something else.

You NEED to tell us now.

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:40 pm**

Fantastic read Uni

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:21 pm**

I know this assumption wasn't made here, though it could easily be inferred and I want to point it out: neither Poskrebyshev or Francos Spain could have been InfernoIce, because all three were WA members at the same time (InfernoIce appears to have been Francos Spain's first endorser).

Posted: **Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:29 pm**

Parazzia wrote:I know this assumption wasn't made here, though it could easily be inferred and I want to point it out: neither Poskrebyshev or Francos Spain could have been InfernoIce, because all three were WA members at the same time (InfernoIce appears to have been Francos Spain's first endorser).

Take that order of endorsements with a grain of salt. It was more than a month after the coup, so there would be a lot of turnover in a crisis zone like the Pacific. FS also lost all of his endorsements due to a server error that deleted his nation before then, so the order may reflect who re-endorsed him right away.

I can assure you, for instance, Poskrebyshev was not FS' second endorsement. Poskrebyshev's nation was only created after the coup had already happened.

That having been said, InfernoIce is definitely an individual player, yes. His own history seems quite interesting. He was banned the Pacific for being a tyrant delegate, he then proceeded to try to cause trouble in the East Pacific when it was created. The rumour was always that TAO was InfernoIce but I have no idea regarding the substance of that rumour (I'll note the ADN IP Bible featured irregularities with InfernoIce.)

Posted: **Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:07 am**

I wonder why Franco's Spain left the game?

Posted: **Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:33 am**

Frog World wrote:I wonder why Franco's Spain left the game?

Probably the same reason as everyone else- real life

Posted: **Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:20 am**

Frog World wrote:I wonder why Franco's Spain left the game?

NPO’s coup of TNP went sour in the summer of 2004. Francos Spain was ejected and banned from TNP in the onslaught. He then proceeded to CTE. The widely held belief - that he committed suicide - was untrue but that didn’t stop NPO from reporting it and capitalizing on the international sympathy as they transitioned to the PRP. Insiders say he tried to return to the NPO in 05/06 on different platforms and was turned away at the door.

No non-NPOer really knows the answer to your question - I’ve heard some wild and dramatic rumours - but if I were to take a stab at it based on the available evidence: He had a hissy fit over losing TNP and stormed off NS. Perhaps claiming suicide was a twisted way of saving face after failing to take TNP, I dunno. I do suspect though there’s something missing from this story.

Posted: **Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:39 am**

Unibot III wrote:
Frog World wrote:I wonder why Franco's Spain left the game?

NPO’s coup of TNP went sour in the summer of 2004. Francos Spain was ejected and banned from TNP in the onslaught. He then proceeded to CTE. The widely held belief - that he committed suicide - was untrue but that didn’t stop NPO from reporting it and capitalizing on the international sympathy as they transitioned to the PRP. Insiders say he tried to return to the NPO in 05/06 on different platforms and was turned away at the door.

No non-NPOer really knows the answer to your question - I’ve heard some wild and dramatic rumours - but if I were to take a stab at it based on the available evidence: He had a hissy fit over losing TNP and stormed off NS. Perhaps claiming suicide was a twisted way of saving face after failing to take TNP, I dunno. I do suspect though there’s something missing from this story.

I mean, what’s the likelihood that someone committed suicide over a web game?

Wait. But Francos Spain only CTEd in 2011

Posted: **Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:59 am**

Fauxia wrote:I mean, what’s the likelihood that someone committed suicide over a web game?

Wait. But Francos Spain only CTEd in 2011

Francos Spain briefly revived his nation for the 10th Year Anniversary of the August Revolution in 2013.

It should also be noted that no NPO official ever stated Francos Spain committeed 'suicide'. The official thread on the proboards forum simply talks about a real-life disaster which has forced him to leave the game. It really is low to attempt to claim that somehow the entire NPO Senate was conspiring so that the New Pacific Order could gain some in-game sympathy.

Posted: **Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:02 am**

It is what was communicated to enemy factions through private channels.

Posted: **Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:08 am**

Crazy girl wrote:It is what was communicated to enemy factions through private channels.

Could you be kind enough to tell us which nations communicated that message to 'enemy factions'?

I don't doubt that the rumor was spread as it was all over the game; what I doubt is that this was an attempt by the NPO government to gain 'sympathy' or whatever that is supposed to mean, as Unibot stated.

Posted: **Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:09 am**

Yeah, sure, just let me dig through a few thousand messages on different forums from back in 2004.

Posted: **Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:15 am**

Yeah I wouldn't do that either, too bothersome.

Though it would be better if Unibot has some kind of proof for his ridiculous claims.

Posted: **Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:32 am**

Hmm, I did some digging actually, it seems it was mentioned on the old Meritocracy forum. My post that I did find on a different forum mentions Unlimited and Myrth confirmed the news of Francos Spain committing suicide. It is possible they were duped as well, I'd hate to think they were in on the lie and used it to stop the takeover that was happening during that time and was aborted when this news did come out.

Posted: **Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:44 am**

Revolutionary Vanguardism wrote:
Fauxia wrote:I mean, what’s the likelihood that someone committed suicide over a web game?

Wait. But Francos Spain only CTEd in 2011
Francos Spain briefly revived his nation for the 10th Year Anniversary of the August Revolution in 2013.

It should also be noted that no NPO official ever stated Francos Spain committeed 'suicide'. The official thread on the proboards forum simply talks about a real-life disaster which has forced him to leave the game. It really is low to attempt to claim that somehow the entire NPO Senate was conspiring so that the New Pacific Order could gain some in-game sympathy.

The public statements suggest a "personal tragedy" and yes, don't indicate a death. But that story differs greatly from what was doing the rounds on IRC/IM/MSN. Not wanting to seem unsympathetic, the ADN's hand was twisted to put out a "fond farewell." They were then hammered by Senator BlackAdder in the Independent Press for "taking advantage of a personal tragedy" for trying to liberate the Pacific during the transition:

Whether you liked Franco’s Spain or you hated him, if you were anybody in NationStates you knew him. The week started off with the resignation of Franco’s Spain from the game because of a “catastrophic tragedy” in his life as he stated on the Pacific forums. It was at that point that the 7,000 nation strong region was at it’s weakest. They were leaderless and in the process of reorganization.

But at that time it was with “Strength and Honor” that the Alliance Defense Network chose to invade the Pacific showing their true colors. The motto of the A.D.N. is “With Strength and Honor” and being an independent observer I was definitely impressed that the A.D.N. was able to live up to their motto. It was with honor that that they took advantage of a personal tragedy for their regional leader and started a siege against Unlimited, a nation in the Pacific government whom is expected to fill the void of the former leader.

It was with honor that the A.D.N. violated treaties they had signed with the Meritocracy to justify the war which happened to coincide with the personal tragedy of Franco’s Spain.

It was with strength that the A.D.N. expressed regrets about the departure of Franco’s Spain but at the same time tried to destabilize all that he had worked for in the Pacific.

So thank you A.D.N. for demonstrating your true convictions to the world. Thank you for living up your motto. Thank you for expressing respect and courage in defending your own interests at the same time as the figurehead of the region you are invading is experiencing personal tragedy and a life altering event. Thank you showing your bravery by violating treaties and taking advantage of the sense of trust that others had in you. Why do I say thank you? Because we used to trust you A.D.N., we wanted to support you, we believed your goal was noble at one point but don’t worry. We, and the world will never make that mistake again.

The circumstances surrounding FS were most certainly milked to their fullest propaganda value at a time when NPO badly needed public sympathy and a public relations coup. The transition was precarious, FS had abandoned the delegacy to invade the North Pacific. You remember that PR exercise that NPO went on after NLO? NLO was a children's birthday party compared to the invasion of TNP. Imagine the PR circuit that was needed after a World Factbook Entry like this...

July 11 wrote:THE PACIFIC

World Factbook Entry: newpacificorder.proboards19.com/index.cgi

UN nations are requested to temporarily move to The North Pacific and endorse Francos Spain.

UN Delegate: None.

Posted: **Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:48 pm**

Crazy girl wrote:Hmm, I did some digging actually, it seems it was mentioned on the old Meritocracy forum. My post that I did find on a different forum mentions Unlimited and Myrth confirmed the news of Francos Spain committing suicide. It is possible they were duped as well, I'd hate to think they were in on the lie and used it to stop the takeover that was happening during that time and was aborted when this news did come out.

I can't recall either of us 'confirming' that. Not that it matters either way, the security of the Pacific was of paramount concern to which the end always justify the means.

Posted: **Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:56 pm**

Myrth wrote:
Crazy girl wrote:Hmm, I did some digging actually, it seems it was mentioned on the old Meritocracy forum. My post that I did find on a different forum mentions Unlimited and Myrth confirmed the news of Francos Spain committing suicide. It is possible they were duped as well, I'd hate to think they were in on the lie and used it to stop the takeover that was happening during that time and was aborted when this news did come out.

I can't recall either of us 'confirming' that. Not that it matters either way, the security of the Pacific was of paramount concern to which the end always justify the means.

Can't tell if joking, or if actually saying that feigning the death of real players is all well and good.

Posted: **Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:05 pm**

I feel it might be apropos to link my lecture from the 2014 NationStates World's Fair: On Ethics in Gameplay.

I am by no means a primary source on the historical matter, but I may well be the first source Unibot encountered on this subject. More importantly however, I disagree entirely with the idea that those means would be justified by in-game ends. A spy lying about where they live and how old they are? Probably fine, in terms of real life ethics. A player falsely telling another player that someone had died in order to gain an in-game advantage? I don't think the person who is that first player would be acting ethically.

NationStates

The Anatomy of the Coup: How Francos Spain Won