The Pacific are attempting to invade St Abbaddon

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Once again, put up or shut up. Where is this forced takeover except in your imagination? You've completely failed to point to or provide evidence to that point. I don't see why you bother harping on about it if you can't even back up the claims.

Excerpt from a confidential telegram from someone still active and participating frequently in St Abbaddon:

"I had heard that you went really inactive, and I'm sorry. I don't agree with what the NPO are doing at all, and I think it's 100% completely unfair."

Every message I received from people within the region indicated that the arrangement was made entirely on an "or else" basis.

But all of this can be fleshed out in great detail once I'm back in the top seat.

just gonna repost that to start, because yeah, I'm pretty peripheral and I've heard from a few different folks that the internal discussion at the time was very much "we have to do this or else," despite your claims that there was no coercion. Shall I also repost Perg as well?

Let's continue with the narrative: This right time to strike was the moment of the recent massive Invasion of St Abbaddon. We considered it highly unlikely that someone that eternally declared war on us would be willing to hand over a region in general or without proper means to enforce it. Nonetheless we didn't anticipate to obtain the region (Pacifica) anyways, so we rather decided to go for a permanent punishment for Topid. Nothing suits better than a removal from the Region he called home to equalize his wrongdoings. With both, the invading forces and the defenders deployed being in almost equal numbers, we jumped in to ultimately decide the fate of this battle. As I said, I will be ultimately honest, without alternating the narrative to make it sound more appealing: We received a notification that St Abbaddon would be under siege and some of our allies requested our help considering this operation. Since we are no raiders, we accepted to help them with the unchangeable fact and term that Topid has to be punished once the region is claimed, additionally with the term and notification to their command that all support will cease if we get what we came for by other means. So we at first, fortified the Invaders, not with the intention to shut down the region but rather to have Topid punished. It is Pacifican nature that the end always justifies the means. Anyhow, this forced the deployed Defenders into negotiations with us. The leadership of these defenders did not only understand our reasons, but as outcome of the negotiations brought us to switch to endorse the native Delegate Kitsco.

According to their version, TP was there to get what they wanted, by force, and defenders agreed to support that removal in return for winning the day. Yes, there were "negotiations" after that, but it seems pretty clear that the natives viewed the alternative to agreeing, explicitly or implicitly, as being threatened again by TP.

As for activity, please evidence where during the NPO involvement in St Abbadon there was any significant change in St Abbadon activity. Once again you make baseless claims which are founded in your imagination rather than reality. You claim that NPO presense directly caused it, so please provide the requisite evidence to prove that.

But, if you insist on your own metrics - the most recent RMB post is 24 days ago, and the tenth most recent (top of the RMB) is 56 days ago. Willing to accept that it’s a husk under its supposed benefactors now?

I can collect more data if you'd like, but that the region has declined to barely being on life support is a pretty unrefuteable fact.

[Kylia Quilor]

I'd like to applaud the Wardens for doing what I previously thought impossible, making me miss the UDL. It never would have done this.

Someone really should revive it, or start something like it. There needs to be an alternative to fendas who condone and assist NPO imperialism. That's gross.

Pretty sure the UDL supported NPO lower-case 'i' imperialism more than once. See: the PRL Coup.

[Vuori Kunin-Grrs]

Once again, put up or shut up. Where is this forced takeover except in your imagination? You've completely failed to point to or provide evidence to that point. I don't see why you bother harping on about it if you can't even back up the claims.

As for activity, please evidence where during the NPO involvement in St Abbadon there was any significant change in St Abbadon activity. Once again you make baseless claims which are founded in your imagination rather than reality. You claim that NPO presense directly caused it, so please provide the requisite evidence to prove that.

With the way you're arguing, you're either being wilfully misleading, or your understanding of these events borders somewhere in the realm of non-existent.

Providing the evidence would be repetitive - it has been posted by others, above, after your post.

[Warden Roavin]

These are the facts of what defenders did:

• In a time-sensitive situation, negotiation between one defender and the NPO managed to ensure the NPO did not pile the invader delegate, but rather the native.
• Afterwards, while the NPO and Kitsco were negotiating regarding Topid, the same defender informed Kitsco of potential consequences of various options.

These are the facts of what happened that did not involve defenders:

• Topid left the region on his own, to return after the time demanded by NPO.
• The NPO piled Kitsco long enough to pay back the influence lost from Topid's nation leaving the region.
• The NPO offered the protectorate status as an optional "thank you"; the decision to accept that offer was made by Kitsco and Kitsco alone.

These are the capricious and malignant lies and misinterpretations that high-ranking individuals from The Black Hawks and others are claiming in this thread:

• The Protectorate status killed activity in the region — untrue, activity had been low long before the incident.
• Defenders agreed to support the removal of Topid in order to get a "win" — untrue, the dealings after that update did not involve defenders further than informing Kitsco.
• The Grey Wardens colluded with the NPO to essentially coup St Abbaddon — untrue, Kitsco remains the autonomous Delegate and could decide to unilaterally end the protectorate status at any time without consequence.
• Defenders condone the actions of the NPO — untrue, as stated several times here and can be confirmed by people from a variety of regions with individuals that have access to Libcord #officers - in fact, it was a major source of contention at the time.

[Mallorea and Riva]

I've split out some offtopic posts. I really don't want to have to drop any warnings over what should be a simple case of staying on topic, but I will if it continues from players who I've told off already.

[Cinnibar]

I want this thread closed.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Lol, Topid. Still waiting for your apology about the heinous acts of aggression you committed against a new delegate in trying to overthrow her government for some petty stuff she didn't know or care about.~

Didn't TSP help raid St. Abby a few times? I feel like any efforts made to hit back at TSP would be pretty justified

As for that long post that I'm not reading except a random snippet because honestly, some of ya'll go to some boring farming implement\manure\stuff based drama school and therefore reading your posts is like *yawn*

I...You realize that you just came in, threw around baseless accusations, were asked to prove them, and basically just said "nah I don't feel like it," right? That you're the one creating half the drama around here?

Why you hold a position where you represent a GCR is beyond me.

I want this thread closed.

No thread ownership in GP, mate.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

These are the facts of what defenders did:

• In a time-sensitive situation, negotiation between one defender and the NPO managed to ensure the NPO did not pile the invader delegate, but rather the native.
• Afterwards, while the NPO and Kitsco were negotiating regarding Topid, the same defender informed Kitsco of potential consequences of various options.

These are the facts of what happened that did not involve defenders:

• Topid left the region on his own, to return after the time demanded by NPO.
• The NPO piled Kitsco long enough to pay back the influence lost from Topid's nation leaving the region.
• The NPO offered the protectorate status as an optional "thank you"; the decision to accept that offer was made by Kitsco and Kitsco alone.

These are the capricious and malignant lies and misinterpretations that high-ranking individuals from The Black Hawks and others are claiming in this thread:

• The Protectorate status killed activity in the region — untrue, activity had been low long before the incident.
• Defenders agreed to support the removal of Topid in order to get a "win" — untrue, the dealings after that update did not involve defenders further than informing Kitsco.
• The Grey Wardens colluded with the NPO to essentially coup St Abbaddon — untrue, Kitsco remains the autonomous Delegate and could decide to unilaterally end the protectorate status at any time without consequence.
• Defenders condone the actions of the NPO — untrue, as stated several times here and can be confirmed by people from a variety of regions with individuals that have access to Libcord #officers - in fact, it was a major source of contention at the time.

So what you've saying is that Perg's account of the events is widly inaccurate? Because this here contradicts several key points in his telling of the matter at the time, not to mention several key events in Topid's telling of things.

[Warden Roavin]

Such as?

[Reploid Productions]

These are the facts of what defenders did:

• In a time-sensitive situation, negotiation between one defender and the NPO managed to ensure the NPO did not pile the invader delegate, but rather the native.
• Afterwards, while the NPO and Kitsco were negotiating regarding Topid, the same defender informed Kitsco of potential consequences of various options.

• Negotiating with the NPO, a third-party, to pile the native rather than the invader delegate is worse than trying to liberate the region while both regions were still piling. Why was the NPO supporting the invader delegate in the first place? The very act of the NPO supporting an invader operation, even though you, as TGW, work with them quite often (but deny that you are ever "allies") makes the NPO untrustworthy, as if they were forcing you to the negotiating table.
• Was Kitsco even a knowledgeable native, knowing full well exactly the implications of the consequences of the various options? Was Kitsco actively involved in the region? In effect, could Kitsco be depended on as a responsible guardian of the region? Was there any alternative, or was Topid forced into giving Kitsco the position?

These are the facts of what happened that did not involve defenders:

• Topid left the region on his own, to return after the time demanded by NPO.
• The NPO piled Kitsco long enough to pay back the influence lost from Topid's nation leaving the region.
• The NPO offered the protectorate status as an optional "thank you"; the decision to accept that offer was made by Kitsco and Kitsco alone.

Topid left the region on his own, on his own terms, not by anything demanded by the NPO. He left of his own free will, and could come back at any time. However, did Kitsco receive any personal benefits from the NPO piling and the protectorate status that were unrelated to the duties of guarding the region? Is Kitsco connected to the NPO in any way (former member, NPO-friendly, etc).

These are the capricious and malignant lies and misinterpretations that high-ranking individuals from The Black Hawks and others are claiming in this thread:

• The Protectorate status killed activity in the region — untrue, activity had been low long before the incident.
• Defenders agreed to support the removal of Topid in order to get a "win" — untrue, the dealings after that update did not involve defenders further than informing Kitsco.
• The Grey Wardens colluded with the NPO to essentially coup St Abbaddon — untrue, Kitsco remains the autonomous Delegate and could decide to unilaterally end the protectorate status at any time without consequence.
• Defenders condone the actions of the NPO — untrue, as stated several times here and can be confirmed by people from a variety of regions with individuals that have access to Libcord #officers - in fact, it was a major source of contention at the time.

Activity in the region, I would say, lowered further after the incident. It was low, but not as low as it is now, and that in itself is a detrimental side effect of this defender-negotiated NPO-involved catastrophe. The second rebuttal I agree with, but it happened as a result of the NPO-defender negotiations, which adds to the catastrophe. The third rebuttal I somewhat disagree with: Is Kitsco being pressured/influenced in any way? Does he receive any benefits from the protectorate status? Is the NPO doing something that ensures that Kitsco never would want to end the protectorate status, maintaining its protectorate? The fourth rebuttal I hope is true - if it isn't, I seriously doubt the integrity of all defenders. [this font is unusually glitched - edited for normal appearance]

[Escade]

Oh I think I need Mall's and Kylia Quilor's permission to respond to a post responding to my post because it might be threadjacking and the post you quoted has been moved somewhere else.

Or is Souls also threadjacking by responding to my alleged threadjack?

Lol, Topid. Still waiting for your apology about the heinous acts of aggression you committed against a new delegate in trying to overthrow her government for some petty stuff she didn't know or care about.~

Didn't TSP help raid St. Abby a few times? I feel like any efforts made to hit back at TSP would be pretty justified

I didn't do anything against St. Abby and didn't and don't authorize raids lol. I was a new delegate with a random guy sending out TGs to my entire region asking them to un-endorse me. It was quite frightening and stressful. Considering that there are some people bringing up Topid as the saint of NS who is the only one who can determine anything about the region of St. Abby - just providing a more rounded picture of ethics and ethical behavior. Good players can make mistakes and etc. I have no quibbles with the dude, more than enough people have said, "That's not what he's really like, etc" in private to make me think he was just having a bad moment.

As for that long post that I'm not reading except a random snippet because honestly, some of ya'll go to some boring farming implement\manure\stuff based drama school and therefore reading your posts is like *yawn*

I...You realize that you just came in, threw around baseless accusations, were asked to prove them, and basically just said "nah I don't feel like it," right? That you're the one creating half the drama around here?

Why you hold a position where you represent a GCR is beyond me.

I've held several positions in that said GCR and have been over time invited to every major one (and could pull a lot of fun invites some from even so-called enemies) with the hopes that I could bring over what I do for my own region. So far as yet, sticking to my own but always willing to help out a good place with activity or other issues.

I'm not sure what you're talking about actually - what baseless accusation? I could say the same about why someone so hell bent on seeming like a "good guy" has a leadership role in what was, at some point, one of the elite raider regions.

This whole thread is basically you trying to prove that some defenders, in the past or recent past, did something that makes you feel like you're on their level or they're on your level. The facts of the case as presented are divergent and you seem to be arguing that your facts are the only facts and all others are wrong. How is that different from the majority of NSGP?

I'm simply arguing that instead of so feverishly comparing yourself to defenders or trying to either be on their level or get on their level or bring them down to whatever level you conceive - that you might take a different approach and exalt in the things that you enjoy or love about your community. It would make for less whine for one and also instead of you always instigating things and then asking other people to be the better person in response, would instead allow people to see you as less of "oh that guy."

Do you really care about what the "other side" has to say? Or will you pretty much shrug off anything that doesn't fit with what you're trying to prove? Who are you trying to prove your case to?

And now we've pretty much circled back to the argument of banter vs. salt. vs. petty vs. like etc.

[Topid]

I feel like we've gone back and forth on this a few times Escade, but I did not target *YOU* for the unendorsement campaign. I targeted the delegate of TSP, who just happened to be you. There was no reason to take it personally - I did not mean it as such and you're being rather dramatic to bring it up all this time later. I could look through my sent box to find the exact message but as I recall it really focused on "TSP government is attacking this super old and cool region and you (dear nation) don't seem like the kind of bloke that would be that big of a dick so why are you endorsing the leader of that government." It's possible I put some other stuff in there - I don't remember but it isn't like me to pull punches so I'd bet I through everything and the kitchen sink into that telegram. And I seriously intended to be a major pain in the ass until you lot backed out of the raid. And the raid went away and I went back to being totally cool with things.

You were the delegate of a region that raided my region. You were in charge. It is crazy to think my region gets raided and I'm supposed to just sit there and trust you lot are just going to leave on your own accord after a few weeks. That's a dumb and stale way to expect R/D to work. When you actively attempt to be the leader of a region that regularly pushes other regions - don't be surprised if on the first day someone is waiting to push you back. Just as Souls and I can chat as friends after this is all over I should be able to go back to being cool with you too. You lot came in and messed with my region. I did in fact intend to regularly mess with yours until you stopped. Why do you get to hold hard feelings against me but natives are supposed to be able to get over being raided?

Now, having said that, there are some things immediately preceding that raid that I will admit I probably screwed up and should have handled better. But even that story is only usually half told - and this is all super old crap that isn't even relevant.

Bottom line, I don't claim to be a saint or even a good guy. But I am someone who will go to bat and actually do work for St Abbaddon. And I am the only one who will do so. Evidenced by the fact that everyone that is in that region currently has the opportunity to be recruiting or trying to build a region that will last. And they are not doing so.

And for fuck sakes Tim the evidence that St Abbaddon would be more active if a poorly planned short-term bit of gun boat diplomacy hadn't ousted me from the region is that I'm posting in this damn thread.

[Vuori Kunin-Grrs]

Such as?

Though Topid here is referencing Tim, I think this part of Topid's post also is useful in giving you evidence:

And for fuck sakes Tim the evidence that St Abbaddon would be more active if a poorly planned short-term bit of gun boat diplomacy hadn't ousted me from the region is that I'm posting in this damn thread.

Never before have defenders been contradicted by a native. A major keystone native, too.

[Vuori Kunin-Grrs]

Never before have defenders been contradicted by a native. A major keystone native, too.

...except, this has happened before. I just remembered, I wrote a whole article on it. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=383672&p=29318140&sid=45c50313caafadc336fbcbef6d534ddc#p29318140

"The Pacific are Attempting to Invade St Abbaddon" should be revised to "The Pacific are Attempting to Invade St Abbaddon, With Pseduo-Defenders' 'Negotiations'".

Defenders should be consistent in their actions, they can't just defend founderless regions merrily and turn right around and be cold, or at least unhelpful, towards St Abbaddon.

[Topid]

I've split out some offtopic posts. I really don't want to have to drop any warnings over what should be a simple case of staying on topic, but I will if it continues from players who I've told off already.

Apologies if super old St Abby stuff isn't the topic of this thread. Could you maybe let us know exactly what was off topic? I can't see the posts that are gone to know if I am off from what you're saying the topic is. (I thought normally posts were split to a separate locked thread so we could see what not to discuss.)

[Tananat]

I've split out some offtopic posts. I really don't want to have to drop any warnings over what should be a simple case of staying on topic, but I will if it continues from players who I've told off already.

Apologies if super old St Abby stuff isn't the topic of this thread. Could you maybe let us know exactly what was off topic? I can't see the posts that are gone to know if I am off from what you're saying the topic is. (I thought normally posts were split to a separate locked thread so we could see what not to discuss.)

It was some posts of Escade's and replies to them, I think.

[Drop Your Pants]

Defenders should be consistent in their actions, they can't just defend founderless regions merrily and turn right around and be cold, or at least unhelpful, towards St Abbaddon.

Since when have you dictated what defenders can or cannot do? Also, learn a bit about R/D before you type. Raiders also target foundered regions with exec delegates. Which you'd know if you if you knew what R/D even was. Go ask your buddy Woodhouse, at least he know's what R/D is.

[Kalinin K-7]

Defenders should be consistent in their actions, they can't just defend founderless regions merrily and turn right around and be cold, or at least unhelpful, towards St Abbaddon.

Since when have you dictated what defenders can or cannot do? Also, learn a bit about R/D before you type. Raiders also target foundered regions with exec delegates. Which you'd know if you if you knew what R/D even was. Go ask your buddy Woodhouse, at least he know's what R/D is.

Woodhouse is no buddy to me as he is to you. No thank you.

I have never dictated what defenders can or cannot do. I'm just stated my opinion, you can't just generalize the opinion, and in no way do I act like I dictated so. Additionally, of course I know that raiders also target foundered regions with executive delegates, but what does that have to do with any of this? Raiders don't have to be consistent. Defenders consistently invade fascist regions if they can.
Acting as if you were above me by assuming I know nothing about R/D is simply insulting. [EDIT 2]: You've edited your post.

[EDIT]: - Vuori

[Drop Your Pants]

I have never dictated what defenders can or cannot do. I'm just stated my opinion, you can't just generalize the opinion, and in no way do I act like I dictated so.

Excuse my while I look through your forum posts then die laughing.

Acting as if you were above me by assuming I know nothing about R/D is simply insulting. [EDIT 2]: You've edited your post.

Do you know anything about R/D? I mean really? Because you're either a noob or the best deceiver of this NS generation. And my edit was for a typo, turns out I can't spell at 2am.

[RiderSyl]

I have never dictated what defenders can or cannot do.

examples of you trying to dictate what defenders can or cannot do

- CAIN
- The Lazarene Resistance vs. Funk
- Liberate Femdom Empire

oh and that time you posed as TRR in the Security Council was in pretty bad faith
do you still own The Rejected Realms, btw?

it's not yours, La Navasse

[Cormactopia Prime]

<snip>

<snip>

As the lead on that raid of St Abbaddon for The Brotherhood of Malice, I can confirm that Topid had every reason to be concerned. While we didn't initially intend to stay very long, and we weren't initially going to empty the region, we were deliberately vague about our intentions as is fairly common with raids. Given The Brotherhood of Malice's record of attempting to empty and refound regions whenever possible, not even to mention my own personal record, he had every reason to believe that was exactly what we were going to do to St Abbaddon. After he sent out unendorsement campaigns in TSP and Osiris (and possibly others, can't remember) to retaliate for them supporting our raid, our plans changed and I made very clear we were going to try to empty and refound the region. I only relented on that after he agreed to cease his unendorsement campaigns, and after Frattastan, as Delegate of the Rejected Realms, made some additional concessions, the details of which I won't disclose all this time later -- because really, who cares?

I should note that all participants in that raid, including TSP, were consulted about our change of plans to empty and refound the region, and approved them. There is absolutely no reason for anyone who was in the government of TSP at that time to be playing the innocent victim. TSP was absolutely delighted to raid Topid's region -- that's why TSP participated in the raid, actually -- and even more thrilled to empty and refound it. Topid had every right, as a native of that region, to retaliate, and then I had every right to escalate our plans in response to his retaliation. As the saying goes, all's fair in love and war. A settlement agreeable to all parties was eventually reached and everything worked out in the end, and I doubt there are many people besides us who even remember this incident. It's the height of pettiness to be bringing it up as a mark against Topid's character all this time later. Topid was doing what any dedicated native would do for their region, if they had the know-how to do it. I respect him for that.

How this somehow now justifies TSP, TGW, and other fendas in condoning NPO imperialism is beyond me. If that was even the point of what's been said here about that long ago raid which is now ancient history. It's hard to decipher a point sometimes, I must admit.

Personally, I hope to see Topid back in the Delegacy of St Abbaddon soon, and if I had an endorsement to lend him I would.

[The Rejected Realms]

I have never dictated what defenders can or cannot do. I'm just stated my opinion, you can't just generalize the opinion, and in no way do I act like I dictated so.

Excuse my while I look through your forum posts then die laughing.

Acting as if you were above me by assuming I know nothing about R/D is simply insulting. [EDIT 2]: You've edited your post.

Do you know anything about R/D? I mean really? Because you're either a noob or the best deceiver of this NS generation. And my edit was for a typo, turns out I can't spell at 2am.

Your edit wasn't for a typo, it was for an inflammatory statement that you removed. And yes, I do know R/D, and I rather have you facing my argument then questioning my intellect.

I have never dictated what defenders can or cannot do.

examples of you trying to dictate what defenders can or cannot do

- CAIN
- The Lazarene Resistance vs. Funk
- Liberate Femdom Empire

oh and that time you posed as TRR in the Security Council was in pretty bad faith
do you still own The Rejected Realms, btw?

it's not yours, La Navasse

I can't dictate anything that defenders do. Why would I? I can only give my opinion and attempt to support it, but you can't say I'm trying to dictate what they do. Additionally, how is this nation not mine? There's nothing to speak to the contrary. In no way pushing my opinion is effectively me trying to dictate what defenders do in this thread.

[EDIT]: -Vuon

[Glen-Rhodes]

TSP was absolutely delighted to raid Topid's region -- that's why TSP participated in the raid, actually -- and even more thrilled to empty and refound it.

Uh... no "TSP" wasn't. Southern Bellz made the decision to pile for you guys on his own, yes in retaliation for Topid leaking op intel on the New Southern Army's planned raid of Nazi Europe. Under no circumstance was TSP "thrilled" at the idea of destroying the place.

First of all, the raid didn't even pop up on most TSPers' radars. When the unendorsement campaign happened, TSPers had no clue what was going on. Having no clue is hardly being "delighted." TSP's Cabinet didn't huddle together and make some big decision about piling for the Brotherhood of Malice. It was SB's decision alone, and he was hardly in line with the rest of the Cabinet when it came to military alignment. So maybe SB was delighted, I guess.

You're talking about a time when Escade was Delegate, Kris was her VD, and I was Minister of Foreign Affairs.

[Swift Sure]

I haven't been reading this topic because I didn't think it was serious and was resolved awhile back but now I guess I have to figure out what this controversy is xD

[Cormactopia Prime]

Uh... no "TSP" wasn't. Southern Bellz made the decision to pile for you guys on his own, yes in retaliation for Topid leaking op intel on the New Southern Army's planned raid of Nazi Europe. Under no circumstance was TSP "thrilled" at the idea of destroying the place.

First of all, the raid didn't even pop up on most TSPers' radars. When the unendorsement campaign happened, TSPers had no clue what was going on. Having no clue is hardly being "delighted." TSP's Cabinet didn't huddle together and make some big decision about piling for the Brotherhood of Malice. It was SB's decision alone, and he was hardly in line with the rest of the Cabinet when it came to military alignment. So maybe SB was delighted, I guess.

You're talking about a time when Escade was Delegate, Kris was her VD, and I was Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Was Southern Bellz not your Minister of Military Affairs, and thus acting on behalf of TSP as its elected head of military? Southern Bellz was TSP for the purposes of that operation. That's what he was elected to be. So yes, insofar as he supported it and TSP's military supported it under his orders, TSP did in fact support the operation. Unless you're now going to tell us official military operations of TSP aren't representative of TSP.