The Kemetic Chronicle ~ Osirian ConCon in Chaos

[Glen-Rhodes]

If the underclass of Osiris vote in a constitution establishing democracy -- the same way, presumably, Cormac called his own convention -- and the elite refuse to accept it, wouldn't they be the ones conducting a coup?

[Queen Yuno]

[Cormactopia Prime]

<snip>

I think, to be honest, you just don't at all grasp the differences between Sinkers and Feeders. You make it sound like it's okay if "democracy" screws up as long as everyone keeps pursuing it. In a Sinker, if "democracy" screws up and a coup occurs, there is unlikely to be a second chance to get it right. It's not like in Feeders where you can be pretty much assured that a tyrant will eventually be ousted. Unless a tyrant in a Sinker is very incompetent, they are very likely to win. So it's a much more dire situation than you seem to grasp and it's not at all conducive to Feeder-style "democracy," because it's just about impossible for a GCR "democracy" to thrive with that much constant danger to its existence.

You make it sound like I have some strong preference for authority. I don't. I think TNP's system is interesting and can be a lot of fun. Europeia's system is very exciting. TSP's system would be great with a different group of people. I don't have any strong aversion to GCR "democracy," but I know what doesn't work in Osiris by now, and GCR "democracy" certainly doesn't. I value maintaining the community in Osiris above "democracy." I realize this instinct for community preservation for some reason makes me the devil in your eyes and in the eyes of a great many other people who think GCR "democracy" is right for all GCRs, but it is what it is. I know what doesn't work in Osiris. You clearly have no idea.

If the underclass of Osiris vote in a constitution establishing democracy -- the same way, presumably, Cormac called his own convention -- and the elite refuse to accept it, wouldn't they be the ones conducting a coup?

The "underclass of Osiris" -- and I'm sure they're deeply inspired by you calling them that -- can propose a "democratic" constitution in this very convention, which was called by the legislature, not me. No one is proposing it because very few even want to go more democratic, and those few (I actually only know of one) who do don't want to force it on the vast majority who don't. In other words, no one here is interested in what you're selling.

If the required majority of citizens wanted a GCR "democracy," I wouldn't stand in the way. You probably don't believe that, but it's true. Everything I've tried to do in Osiris has been to try to further its community and let the community independently decide its own course instead of being manipulated by opportunists like Biyah, Jesus Whale, and now Adytus, as well as others. Some of what I've done wasn't pretty, and some of it was the wrong thing to do, but I had the right intentions all along and if the community of Osiris said right now that they want GCR "democracy" I would say okay.

I also wouldn't stick around, because I've already seen the results of "democracy" in Osiris, it isn't pretty, and I have no interest in revisiting the inevitable outcome of "democracy" in Osiris. You, of course, don't mind that outcome, because you don't care about Osiris or its community.

[Glen-Rhodes]

So... again... y'all are gonna proscribe TSPers from Osiris because I said Osirans should throw out the elite class... which is what you're saying they're allowed to do, they just don't want to.

But ya, like I said, I shouldn't look this gift horse in the mouth.

[Cormactopia Prime]

So... again... y'all are gonna proscribe TSPers from Osiris because I said Osirans should throw out the elite class... which is what you're saying they're allowed to do, they just don't want to.

But ya, like I said, I shouldn't look this gift horse in the mouth.

You said they should throw out the legal Delegate. You didn't say they should amend the constitution in favor of "democracy." Your actual words do matter.

[Glen-Rhodes]

So... again... y'all are gonna proscribe TSPers from Osiris because I said Osirans should throw out the elite class... which is what you're saying they're allowed to do, they just don't want to.

But ya, like I said, I shouldn't look this gift horse in the mouth.

You said they should throw out the legal Delegate. You didn't say they should amend the constitution in favor of "democracy." Your actual words do matter.

Actually, I just said "throw them out." Y'all choose to read that as "coup" because that's the kind of players you are.

Can your legislature waive the 2 day debate btw? How long will this vote last?

[Cormactopia Prime]

Actually, I just said "throw them out." Y'all choose to read that as "coup" because that's the kind of players you are.

Can your legislature waive the 2 day debate btw? How long will this vote last?

No it can't, and voting lasts for three days. So assuming discussion is not extended, a total of five days for discussion and voting.

That's if you're asking about proscribing TSP. If you were asking about the convention, it's a different time table.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Shame it's gonna take so long :'(

Anyways, there's like.. a whole 2 Osiris/TSP crossover players. Let's see if you guys let Imki off the hook like Balder did

[Cormactopia Prime]

Shame it's gonna take so long :'(

Anyways, there's like.. a whole 2 Osiris/TSP crossover players. Let's see if you guys let Imki off the hook like Balder did

There are no exemptions permitted under current law. We hope Imki will decide to stay with us, but we understand whatever decision she makes. I do think she should consider that while there is probably no one in Osiris who hopes she'll choose TSP and leave Osiris, there are probably plenty of people in TSP who hope she will choose Osiris and leave TSP. Nonetheless, she's been dedicated to TSP for a long time so I'd understand if she stays in TSP.

[Unibot III]

<snip>

I think, to be honest, you just don't at all grasp the differences between Sinkers and Feeders. You make it sound like it's okay if "democracy" screws up as long as everyone keeps pursuing it. In a Sinker, if "democracy" screws up and a coup occurs, there is unlikely to be a second chance to get it right. It's not like in Feeders where you can be pretty much assured that a tyrant will eventually be ousted. Unless a tyrant in a Sinker is very incompetent, they are very likely to win. So it's a much more dire situation than you seem to grasp and it's not at all conducive to Feeder-style "democracy," because it's just about impossible for a GCR "democracy" to thrive with that much constant danger to its existence.

You make it sound like I have some strong preference for authority. I don't. I think TNP's system is interesting and can be a lot of fun. Europeia's system is very exciting. TSP's system would be great with a different group of people. I don't have any strong aversion to GCR "democracy," but I know what doesn't work in Osiris by now, and GCR "democracy" certainly doesn't. I value maintaining the community in Osiris above "democracy." I realize this instinct for community preservation for some reason makes me the devil in your eyes and in the eyes of a great many other people who think GCR "democracy" is right for all GCRs, but it is what it is. I know what doesn't work in Osiris. You clearly have no idea.

So your solution to preventing a dictatorship is preemptively being a dictatorship first? Surely even you can recognize the futility of that logic. Community and democracy go hand in hand. You cannot protect a community by distancing the community from the operations of its state. The "Game of Thrones" that authoritarianism and unpredictable transitions of power promotes, ultimately disrupts regional communities - it challenges camaraderie, factionalizes residents covertly, and encourages them to communicate their intentions in code under the "spreading chestnut tree."

I believe you do think you're doing what is best for Osiris, the issue is that most autocrats make that mistake too.

Conceptualizing the problem you're describing in mathematical terms would be an interesting project. You've suggested that in the past, Osiris' regular crises may have engendered a sort of 'endorsement fatigue' which would be unique to Osiris - that's a factor to consider separately too. If we were to hold the size of a region's WA electorate as K, the equality of its endorsements, a gini coefficient, as E_e, and the equality of influence, also a gini coefficient, as E_i - the question is whether there is a negative relationship between the size of the region and the equality of either its endorsements or influence? Off the top of my head, I don't think there would be, but if there was, I would suggest a dual executive as TSP has turned to*. I would speculate however - and this is just my immediate sense - that the problem you've identified applies to all feeders and sinkers, except TRR, and has nothing to do with the size of the region's electorate, but the equality of endorsements and influence In situ. Incumbents in all GCRs with an ejection button are very difficult to depose. To achieve stability and security, the gap in terms of endorsements and influence has to first be voluntarily ceded through administrative policy encouraging endorsement trading. A leap of "faith" that most GCR governments are not willing make.

*If Osiris were to pursue such a policy, naturally the next challenge would be to consider who is in fact trustworthy as a Head of State given virtually everyone who could be Head of State has a history of couping Osiris at least once if not in multiple instances.

[Roavin]

Just to clarify, I agree with GR and Roavin that the Guardians are probably being self-serving here, but that doesn't make them wrong to oppose the new constitution.

That's not what I said - I was just countering the OP, which tried to paint the picture that the three Guardians (of four, so not all of them) did some last minute juggling to "save" Osiris from some sort of Cormac/NK/Syberis autocracy, when in fact the plan to have more Pharaoh/Delegate power was plainly (and publicly) stated before the legal framework for such a convention was even made a law.

Now you may very well be right (and given the statements by KQ/Koth/Cormac/Wymond/etc., it sure seems like it), but my post was only the second reply and this is news that is still developing.

[Unibot III]

Just to clarify, I agree with GR and Roavin that the Guardians are probably being self-serving here, but that doesn't make them wrong to oppose the new constitution.

That's not what I said - I was just countering the OP, which tried to paint the picture that the three Guardians (of four, so not all of them) did some last minute juggling to "save" Osiris from some sort of Cormac/NK/Syberis autocracy, when in fact the plan to have more Pharaoh/Delegate power was plainly (and publicly) stated before the legal framework for such a convention was even made a law.

Now you may very well be right (and given the statements by KQ/Koth/Cormac/Wymond/etc., it sure seems like it), but my post was only the second reply and this is news that is still developing.

I RETRACT! I RETRACT! DON'T HURT ME!

[SYG]

Adytus, Wrektopia, and Weast Jurmany have collectively moved their nations to Lazarus. :^)

[Roavin]

So the three Guardians in question left for Lazarus, plus cleared the WFE on their way out.

EDIT: Dammit, Syg sniped me

[Ikania]

Another day, another controversy in a region that likes to pretend it cares about opinions contradicting the ruling clique.

[SYG]

Alas, I'll give them credit for putting more effort into the WFE than they did the Constitutional Convention.

[Marilyn Manson Freaks]

Oh my.

[Kanglia]

Oh boy

[Canton Empire]

Funks Lazarus is a Osiris copy

[Tim-Opolis]

The irony of this whole situation is that the same people screaming bloody murder about Glen's personal comments number among the same ranks as those who vehemently defend Solorni for her personal comments.

I mean, that doesn't change the fact that Adytus is an opportunistic carpetbagger, but still.

[Killer Kitty]

This thread is giving me Lazarus Civil War flash backs for all the wrong reasons.

You got the anonymous "news" puppet, the obligatory over the top slant, TSP officials running around everywhere trying to force their opinion on the thread, and even the now obligatory Rahl Conspiracy meme.

So when does TSP officially come out and declare that the Osiris government is illegitimate and they will be supporting the "resistance" with military force?

[Canton Empire]

This thread is giving me Lazarus Civil War flash backs for all the wrong reasons.

You got the anonymous "news" puppet, the obligatory over the top slant, TSP officials running around everywhere trying to force their opinion on the thread, and even the now obligatory Rahl Conspiracy meme.

So when does TSP officially come out and declare that the Osiris government is illegitimate and they will be supporting the "resistance" with military force?

Well I'll be damned, I actually agree with you for the first 2/3rds of this post.

[Ikania]

This thread is giving me Lazarus Civil War flash backs for all the wrong reasons.

You got the anonymous "news" puppet, the obligatory over the top slant, TSP officials running around everywhere trying to force their opinion on the thread, and even the now obligatory Rahl Conspiracy meme.

So when does TSP officially come out and declare that the Osiris government is illegitimate and they will be supporting the "resistance" with military force?

Man, maybe next we'll even have an illegal purge of dissenting community members!

[Killer Kitty]

Man, maybe next we'll even have an illegal purge of dissenting community members!

You sound bitter. What's the matter, can't find anyone to support an overthrow of your new refuge in TEP?

[Kanglia]

Can we all just drop Lazarus & be a little more interested in Osiris?