NS World Fair: All Aboard!

[RiderSyl]

The list of things that Almonaster Nuevo blames for how the NSWF Committee handled the situation:

Unreasonable expectations
Sabotage
The reaction to the forum skin that nobody had experience making/Europeia didn't help with
The Committee themselves
A very hostile atmosphere leading to a "siege mentality" within the committee
Having to give people "free speech"
Lack of expertise from a lecturer
Having to back off from asking a lecturer to modify their lecture
Committee members being worldwide
Bad timing
Tiredness
Rumors adding 'fuel to the flames', making the committee determined to keep the ban
Europeia "jumping in", giving the Committee another argument to deal with while they were "already stretched"

The actual list of things to blame for how the NSWF Committee handled the situation:

The Committee themselves

[Syberis]

Fun fact, committee. If I'm agreeing with Syl, Ro, and Escade all at once, it's not a bandwagon. There's no massive TSP/Osiris/TWP conspiracy theory, though that would be utterly fucking hilarious.

It's mismanagement. There's not one side of NSGP shitting on what you did. It's a huge amount of active players across the spectrum. Figure that out.

[Davelands]

Could not agree more with Syb.

You have managed to pull people together who don't normally agree with each other. So congratulations for that.

You had one job. And you couldn't do that properly. Moderation is not rocket science. There are dozens of regions that manage to successfully moderate a Forum and Discord server every day. Why couldn't you?

[RiderSyl]

Ya, it's very obvious to see that the NSWF Committee handled the security situation very poorly. What makes it worse is they mishandled a security situation involving an accusation of harassment, while running a theme about safety, the year that NSWF finally made the NS News section.

Still being totally silent isn't going to make it go away. Putting 99.9% of the blame on everything/everyone else like Almonaster did isn't going to fool anyone as to where the fault really lies.

Anyone that was formerly on the Committee needs to understand why we're still talking about it. While trying to provide a platform for lectures about safety, you guys actually provided the best lesson. A lesson of how not to handle security, how not to moderate, and how to compromise the safety of a community. It consisted of more actions than words. The way y'all behaved, if copied, would open other communities up to acting on prematurely-made accusations... and worse, intentionally false accusations.

It's why competent admin teams wait for evidence before acting. Not assurances that evidence exists somewhere behind a locked door they can't open.

[Conservative Values]

I want to add just my thoughts because I don't want anyone to feel dog-piled, and I don't think AN appropriately set up the question he posed to us all. First let me say that I hate to see and read what has happened, and I hate that it did happen. Thank you to AN for stepping forward to provide some response. For what it is worth, that does seem like a difficult situation to have been put in.

To me the irony is palpable that this event was derailed by admins and moderators taking action on conduct that occurred offsite. I know the emotions are still raw for everyone, but isn't it amazing how things in NationStates seem to happen that seem like fiction? Because of course that's how this was going to end. This thread was started a week before the petition and the theme of security was very much a response to that horrible event and others like it that were being revealed. The Fair itself started a month after the petition. Europeia seemed like a great host because Gameplay at large was impressed by their handling of that situation both from as their Admin Team, and their regional government (and even outside of the event, they're an impressive region. But this year even more so than normal is obviously what I mean). So we come straight out of that, and into this event.

It is so easy for me to understand how a community that in the weeks prior to this event were angry that not enough was being done to make sure harassers and dangerous folks are kept away from NationStaters came into the next month a bit on edge about this. There was a lot of sensitivity about this issue.

So to set up AN's question to all of us lets play a mental game and move these events around chronologically a few weeks. Lets say the Europeian investigation that caused the petition was kicked off a mere month (not that long in the timespan the particular user was involved on this site and theirs) later, and it was ongoing when this event took place. And the user that was under investigation in Europeia was at the World Fair. Would the Europeian admin team feel the need to alert the NSWF admin team to maybe be on the lookout? Would they feel comfortable sharing any of the evidence they had accumulated about a long time friend and trusted member of their community given how explosive they knew it was going to be if/when they went public?

If I play that mental game, I can see how a notification that an investigation is ongoing with no attached evidence could seem pretty serious. I can also see how the region doing the notifying might feel they really needed to do it - especially in the more-sensitive-than-normal climate. And it does indeed put the Committee in a pickle where it feels like there's no easy call. I don't think it even matters what AN said about not having a statement ready and not having someone ready to run communications, because what could really be said?

It is easy for me to understand how this happened. It is easy for me to relate to the actions of the Committee even if I don't agree with them. To me the more useful conversation is not being critical about what happened, it is having the same conversation we originally had in the 'Petition' thread but now among ourselves instead of with the NationStates Staff.

What should we do when find out something bad might have happened, and someone using a site we admin might have done it, when we don't have all the evidence or we don't have a way to verify the evidence? And, what if we're wrong? That's a really hard question. And also, if we think something might have happened but haven't proven it yet, should we give a warning to other admins who might ought to be looking out themselves, or should we keep our suspicions quiet. That's a hard question too. It's an easy question to say with hindsight and say that the region didn't end up banning the user under investigation, and it looks like the user was innocent, so the Committee made a dumb decision. But it also doesn't develop any useful guidelines or community standards for people facing a hard question to follow in the future. Because sometimes hindsight will say the user was in fact dangerous.

[RiderSyl]

What should we do when find out something bad might have happened, and someone using a site we admin might have done it, when we don't have all the evidence or we don't have a way to verify the evidence?

Verify the evidence you do have the best that you can, and then act on it within reason. If you have no evidence at all, you do not proceed.

And, what if we're wrong?

Then you own up to it.

if we think something might have happened but haven't proven it yet, should we give a warning to other admins who might ought to be looking out themselves, or should we keep our suspicions quiet.

Depends on the situation.

It's an easy question to say with hindsight and say that the region didn't end up banning the user under investigation, and it looks like the user was innocent, so the Committee made a dumb decision.

It was easy to say without hindsight, while it was happening, too.

But it also doesn't develop any useful guidelines or community standards for people facing a hard question to follow in the future.

One, there are already existing guidelines and standards for how to handle security issues like this as a moderation team, like the "no evidence, no action" one that the NSWF Committee decided wasn't important. Two, if the NSWF hadn't messed this up so badly that regions pulled out and the Fair essentially died, there would have been more useful guidelines and community standards discussed and possibly discovered.

[Bran Astor]

Don't forget that the latest from TNP on the matter is "Rome wasn't built in a day."

[Conservative Values]

It was easy to say without hindsight, while it was happening, too.

Verify the evidence you do have the best that you can, and then act on it within reason. If you have no evidence at all, you do not proceed.

One, there are already existing guidelines and standards for how to handle security issues like this as a moderation team, like the "no evidence, no action" one that the NSWF Committee decided wasn't important.

The definition of "evidence" is important here, because to some a serious concern from someone you find trustworthy counts as evidence that something probably is questionable enough to be seriously concerned. I learned that lesson the hard way once as some may know. The entire point of the petition was that evidence beyond the black and white that can be 100% verified should be valid. Just the same, ultimately the NSWF can have no evidence with 100% confidence except what happens on their site. That's black and white, everything else is some level of grey. Now I will grant you that just the existence of an investigation is very very light grey, and I'm not trying to defend the course of action. But I do understand (especially in that particular moment in Gameplay culture) how it could happen. My point is merely that there was a big push to knock the NationStates Staff for keeping things so black and white, and we (as a community, not me myself) were so passionate that when it comes down to it if it is grey then it isn't worth the risk. I have to believe that feeling was in the hearts of the committee at least somewhat when they made this call, and so I can understand it even if I don't agree with it.

Though none of this is fun, it has to bring Fris and Monitor at least some sense of resolve that we didn't make it a month ourselves without a major backlash for not-grey-enough.

The petition itself highlighted the need to balance "certainty against risk" - well the risk is always pretty bad. Where I feel we need more work is how much uncertainty makes it worth exposing people to that risk.

Then you own up to it.

Owning up to a bad judgement call is indeed always good. Obviously. I don't know what was or wasn't said to the falsely banned in this case in private. It sounds like not much. That is a shame.

if we think something might have happened but haven't proven it yet, should we give a warning to other admins who might ought to be looking out themselves, or should we keep our suspicions quiet.

Depends on the situation.

I think this is worth exploring further. Because it definitely is also true that NSWF Committee wouldn't have been in this position had a certain admin or admin team not decided to share a partial story.

Two, if the NSWF hadn't messed this up so badly that regions pulled out and the Fair essentially died, there would have been more useful guidelines and community standards discussed and possibly discovered.

Fair enough, but alternatively any guidelines that came out of a NSWF that itself allowed for all they knew another Brunhilde to waltz around it wouldn't have aged well either.

Look, I'm not saying that people should be banned based on this evidence. They shouldn't! But they were, and personally I can understand based on how the Gameplay community at-large reacted to the events just weeks before why there was extreme hesitation to not act on any perceived danger. So if it is understandable, why focus on the mistakes and assigning blame? Seems dumb to me. I agree a certain someone is owed an apology - I doubt anyone of that list involved would disagree. But beyond that it just seems to highlight to me we need a lot more discussion about this and the specifics about what level of uncertainty is acceptable to those who signed the petition to avoid the risk.

[Syberis]

Even from what little rumors I was told and managed to scrub together from the situation, the circumstances and accusations were nowhere near the same as Brunhilde's (Though, I'll say the rumors don't exactly paint TNP in a good light). Conflating the two is either a deliberate obfuscation of the weight of the situation, or shows an utter lack of awareness of the situation in regards to the NSWF.

Please refrain from doing that in the future.

[Syberis]

Apologies for the double-post, but this is something that absolutely needs to be reiterated.

The job of offsite administration is to collect evidence, verify the integrity of that evidence, and act on that evidence. It is not to take "Oh, just trust me" as standard, and it is not to act based on sob-stories and half-truths. The correct action for the NSWF to do if they don't have the evidence, like they claim they didn't, is to act on the evidence, and to present it to other admin teams so they can operate based on the same evidence. That is something that was literally discussed by admin teams in the wake of the issue with Euro, and for months before, even. The NSWF's admin staff was either corrupt or incompetent, and there's no debating that, merely which one.

If you don't have evidence, can't present evidence, and aren't willing to communicate with other organizations' admin staff to make sure that they also are aware of exactly what kind of individual is in their community, then you don't act. If you do have the information, share it with admin staffs. If you can't trust an admin team, make that clear. That is how you keep a community safe, and if you don't know how to do that, don't run a massive, community-spanning event.

I will continue to lobby against the NSWF, as well as TNP's admin staff until this situation is made right, as I utterly cannot trust their administration. I will, however, be at the table with anyone who seeks to host a competing event, and Osiris will be attending that competing event.

[Darcania]

Don't forget that the latest from TNP on the matter is "Rome wasn't built in a day."

A single everyday citizen of TNP is not an official from TNP's government nor from TNP's administration.

[Syberis]

Don't forget that the latest from TNP on the matter is "Rome wasn't built in a day."

A single everyday citizen of TNP is not an official from TNP's government nor from TNP's administration.

Then you guys might want to hurry up and draft something, Darc. Stop hiding and hoping we will all forget.

I await your response today with bated breath.

[Jakker]

As far as I know, there was not complete consensus amongst the committee to move forward with banning Imki. I believe that the decision was even done without all of the committee being online. Please correct me if this is not true.

However, if it is true, the committee should stop trying to act as a unified front and really focus on exactly who went ahead with the decision. Who approached the committee about this? Who initiated the idea to ban Imki? Who voted in favor of that?

I get that this is a tough situation, but I feel like only way that this will be put to rest is if the actual people who were directly involved in this come forward and just own up to what happened rather than certain members of the committee trying to take the fall for everyone. At this point, transparency may finally start allowing harm to be repaired.

[Roavin]

I get that this is a tough situation, but I feel like only way that this will be put to rest is if the actual people who were directly involved in this come forward and just own up to what happened rather than certain members of the committee trying to take the fall for everyone. At this point, transparency may finally start allowing harm to be repaired.

At the time, I argued for the Committee to just release (with reasonable redactions) the related discussions they had internally surrounding the issue. I still think that would be a good idea.

[Jakker]

I get that this is a tough situation, but I feel like only way that this will be put to rest is if the actual people who were directly involved in this come forward and just own up to what happened rather than certain members of the committee trying to take the fall for everyone. At this point, transparency may finally start allowing harm to be repaired.

At the time, I argued for the Committee to just release (with reasonable redactions) the related discussions they had internally surrounding the issue. I still think that would be a good idea.

I'm sure people would like that. Let's just be careful about not letting this get too heated and personal. Since I have contributed to the conversation, I won't be overseeing this thread as a mod. With that said, I worry about things getting to a bad place.

[Malphe]

At the time, I argued for the Committee to just release (with reasonable redactions) the related discussions they had internally surrounding the issue. I still think that would be a good idea.

I'm sure people would like that. Let's just be careful about not letting this get too heated and personal. Since I have contributed to the conversation, I won't be overseeing this thread as a mod. With that said, I worry about things getting to a bad place.

When I saw this thread getting active again I sighed. Not because of any opinions on the matter, I've got none, but because this controversy can bring out the worst in people. Let's hope it doesn't get to that level.

[Tim-Opolis]

Yikes @ TNP Administration

Double Yikes @ The NSWF Committee

[Darcania]

Then you guys might want to hurry up and draft something, Darc. Stop hiding and hoping we will all forget.

I await your response today with bated breath.

While I regret that we didn't do the first to any reasonable standard ("hurry up"), admin is working on the second ("draft something"). I was also unaware that I was hiding or hoping you'd forget, considering I've posted on the GP forums regarding this topic the most out of TNP admin. As well, if anything, it would be worse for all involved if everyone forgot considering the events in question.

In any case, I have no stake in this anymore. Something about my OOC disability being used against me in an online game convinced me that such a game isn't worth partaking in any longer, so I'm no longer an admin and am significantly lowering my involvement in the game. Do enjoy yourselves.

[Syberis]

Then you guys might want to hurry up and draft something, Darc. Stop hiding and hoping we will all forget.

I await your response today with bated breath.

While I regret that we didn't do the first to any reasonable standard ("hurry up"), admin is working on the second ("draft something"). I was also unaware that I was hiding or hoping you'd forget, considering I've posted on the GP forums regarding this topic the most out of TNP admin. As well, if anything, it would be worse for all involved if everyone forgot considering the events in question.

In any case, I have no stake in this anymore. Something about my OOC disability being used against me in an online game convinced me that such a game isn't worth partaking in any longer, so I'm no longer an admin and am significantly lowering my involvement in the game. Do enjoy yourselves.

"Admin is working on it"

"I'm no longer an Admin"

So... can you please direct someone who can give us some sort of status update to this thread, please, instead of speaking for them? Additionally, it is a shame someone used your disability against you. I am quite sorry to hear that happened.

[Syrixia]

Don't forget that the latest from TNP on the matter is "Rome wasn't built in a day."

Actually not TNP. Just me. I said that as a private citizen of The North Pacific. I don't speak for the regional government or the admin team, but I do reserve the right to share my opinions.

[Syberis]

Don't forget that the latest from TNP on the matter is "Rome wasn't built in a day."

Actually not TNP. Just me. I said that as a private citizen of The North Pacific. I don't speak for the regional government or the admin team, but I do reserve the right to share my opinions.

Thank you for your clarification. As per my prior policy, I still don't frequent the TNP forums for my own personal security. So thank you for clarifying that.

[Darcania]

"Admin is working on it"

"I'm no longer an Admin"

So... can you please direct someone who can give us some sort of status update to this thread, please, instead of speaking for them?

I am informing you of what I know. That's at least one thing you wanted, information and updates about what's going on, right? Not only am I saying what was already said, but I was an admin until about three minutes ago.

In any case, you already know who is on TNP's admin team. If you don't want my words then you know where to go and who to poke. If you don't remember the full list, then admins maintain a public list of forum staff members here: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/7211921/

[Syberis]

"Admin is working on it"

"I'm no longer an Admin"

So... can you please direct someone who can give us some sort of status update to this thread, please, instead of speaking for them?

I am informing you of what I know. That's at least one thing you wanted, information and updates about what's going on, right? Not only am I saying what was already said, but I was an admin until about three minutes ago.

In any case, you already know who is on TNP's admin team. If you don't want my words then you know where to go and who to poke. If you don't remember the full list, then admins maintain a public list of forum staff members here: http://forum.thenorthpacific.org/topic/7211921/

To reiterate, due to my utter lack of faith in TNP's admin team to secure me or my people, I'm not accessing the TNP forum. Care to post a list?

[Darcania]

To reiterate, due to my utter lack of faith in TNP's admin team to secure me or my people, I'm not accessing the TNP forum. Care to post a list?

Sorry, didn't read the last post when it showed up.

• Eluvatar
• flemingovia
• Great Bights Mum
• mcmasterdonia
• r3naissanc3r
• Abbey
• SillyString

There are other "Emeritus" admins, but the Emeritus label is generally used for admins who aren't active, so I removed them from the list for convenience.

[Syberis]

Thank you. I do hope things improve for you.