The One Stop Shop for Your Lazarus Scandal Needs!

[Lord Dominator]

I already answered your question several pages ago in this very thread. Your just needlessly repeating questions now.



Because most of them were elected officials from the now defunct Celestial Union government. I guess be angry at the voters of Lazarus?

I do hope that LWU-occupied Lazarus at least has an election without fake natives or balder puppets.

Elections. What madness is that?

[Indo-Malaysia]

I do hope that LWU-occupied Lazarus at least has an election without fake natives or balder puppets.

Elections. What madness is that?

THIS, IS, SPARTAAAA!!!!!!

Sorry, you reminded me of an overused film scene

[Roavin]

In IC terms, I think that the whole francoist "userite" thing is a bunch of buzzwords. If you're looking for real struggle, it can be found between the defenders and the raiders.

Lame. As fun as R/D is, it's a stupid basis for politics. Entire political blocs on the basis of how a region's military prefers to spend their time on missions over arbitrary regions not related to any regional casus belli?

Yes, there is struggle between raiders and defenders (hell, I led the most high-profile organization on the latter side up until a month ago - I know). But that is, or at least should be, a different layer of metagaming, in my opinion (and not just mine). The feederite/sinkerite/userite stuff isn't just a set of buzzwords, even though they have been used like that on occasion recently, but rather a very real thing. The GCRs are inherently important and since the dawn of NationStates there have been fights over them by people from pretty much any identifyable faction. The natives of GCRs (the "feederites" and "sinkerites"), who have settled in a GCR for one reason or another, therefore have to fight off the scourge of outsiders ("userites") vying for control of these very powerful and important pieces of real estate.

So no, not buzzwords. Reality.

[Galiantus III]

Why does Communism use the same branding for all its flags? It's distinctive. But no one called Vietnam, China, and the USSR the same county.

Obvious, after half a day of flying the Wolfist standard we felt the need to come up with a new Wolfist flag unique to the Lazarus Khanate. I can understand your initial confusion, but now it just seems like you're trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.

Explain why the WFE said Lazarus Wolves United and how most of the regional officers are LWU members.

Your defender subversion argument is heavily hypocritical, as the government in Lazarus might as well just be LWU.

The problem with this is that so-called "Wolfism" wasn't even suggested to be an ideology until after it was concocted as an explanation for Lazarus being ruled by Lone Wolves United. "Wolfism" only exists because you need it to.

I do hope that LWU-occupied Lazarus at least has an election without fake natives or balder puppets.

What do you care? You only seem concerned with your own agenda. I am quite sure that if we had an election you'd be decrying it and screaming about how it wasn't really fair, or how all the "natives are fake" or how there was an inherent political climate, perpetuated by the Wolfist Revolution, that meant the outcome was essentially fixed anyway and choice is an illusion.

Get out of here with that false logic.

You lost all legitimate claims to being democratic almost a year ago, when you started importing illegal voters into Lazarus, then subsequently replaced the constitutional democracy with a constitutional monarchy. You stripped the region of the democratic process, and any objections otherwise are just evidence of your inability or unwillingness to acknowledge your faults.

[Killer Kitty]

The problem with this is that so-called "Wolfism" wasn't even suggested to be an ideology until after it was concocted as an explanation for Lazarus being ruled by Lone Wolves United. "Wolfism" only exists because you need it to.

No, not at all. As already pointed out, in the very post I just linked Indo to above even, the Wolfist Manifesto was created in 2007. It's a philosophy that has existed and been known and written about for over a decade. You're wrong in just about every way.

You lost all legitimate claims to being democratic almost a year ago, when you started importing illegal voters into Lazarus

An accusation that was never proven and was solely used by Ike and company as a justification for their failed coup attempt in July.

You have no idea what you're talking about, you're just echoing other people's lies.

[McChimp]

Lame. As fun as R/D is, it's a stupid basis for politics. Entire political blocs on the basis of how a region's military prefers to spend their time on missions over arbitrary regions not related to any regional casus belli?

Yes, there is struggle between raiders and defenders (hell, I led the most high-profile organization on the latter side up until a month ago - I know). But that is, or at least should be, a different layer of metagaming, in my opinion (and not just mine). The feederite/sinkerite/userite stuff isn't just a set of buzzwords, even though they have been used like that on occasion recently, but rather a very real thing. The GCRs are inherently important and since the dawn of NationStates there have been fights over them by people from pretty much any identifyable faction. The natives of GCRs (the "feederites" and "sinkerites"), who have settled in a GCR for one reason or another, therefore have to fight off the scourge of outsiders ("userites") vying for control of these very powerful and important pieces of real estate.

So no, not buzzwords. Reality.

Whether a user decided to move into a different region or not when they first joined the game isn't arbitrary in any way, then? You tell me that the GCR natives must fight off the userites but you can't tell me why. Even the definition of a userite is hazy-you, who literally just admitted to being the leader of a userite gameplay org, are somehow not a userite? How are the members of LWU, who have made Lazarus their native home, userite subversives when you, who led TGW whilst simultaneously being an influential native of TSP, are not? It's so inconsistent that the only purpose I can see for it is as a propagandist "us" and "them" label, explaining its popularity with all sides of NSGP.

[Escade]

Oh if only that image wasn't significant evidence that you, as an LWU supporter, weren't attempting to deny.

Or course any credibility you have as a player was lost the minute you tried to said "no u r" in response to clear, hard evidence about actual userite subversion. Your group has tried very hard to make defenders seem like the bogeyman while you up and purged and couped a former sinker and are still supporting the LWU through a lot of flailing.

I guess what sucks for you is that only two regions actually are still trying hard to justify their involvement. Actually possibly only one, the other might just be trying to save face. I always think its better to cut ties before you end up with someone else's debt on your lap.

Posting an image multiple times does not increase the strength of the argument it supports.

I'm not in Lazarus or it's discord server anymore because of the TRR thing.

In IC terms, I think that the whole francoist "userite" thing is a bunch of buzzwords. If you're looking for real struggle, it can be found between the defenders and the raiders. Wolfist Lazarus is raider inclined largely in the same way TSP is defender inclined. How it ended up like that seems rather unimportant. You seem rather desperate to present raiders as "bogeymen" yourself. You ever try just playing the game as a game? Or are you going to start telling me about how raiders are nasty and how they destroy communities?

"I always think its better to cut ties before you end up with someone else's debt on your lap"-this coming from someone who used to go on and on about honouring treaty agreements. Doesn't this boil down to cutting your friends loose before they become a burden?

1. Are you arguing that raiders are now supporting coups of GCRS based on real or perceived R\D alignment? This sets a dangerous tone that having raiders in your GCR could very well lead to a coup. Still, I'm glad at least it's out in the open. Some raiders at least believe that they have the right to coup GCRs to purge whoever they want without consequence. That's just how they play the "game" and they don't want you to be upset if they do it to you. You can call it whatever you want but targeting a GCR to "purge" it means that every region is now under threat of the userite raider groups.

2. It is very important how it happens. Lazarus had a democratic government, the Celestial Union, which was infiltrated and subverted by LWU. Then LWU purged all opposition, and turned Lazarus into a monarchy. Under the LWU, Lazarus was a dead region that could not get the slightest bit of activity, interest, or anything going. Then LWU, bored at the inactivity, came out with their true colors (hence this WFE)

but some of their supporters were like "WTH?" and so they are now trying to backtrack hard.

TSP has has fought off two coups (one that was imperialist backed). The threats to us have never come from defenders, they have always come from the same spheres and players. Hell, Wolf tried to subvert TSP through voter importation. I never forget the players who tried to harm my region. The goal of these threats is to forcibly remove me and other TSPers who have helped to build our community over years. Then turn the region into dead space and trophies that gather dust and nothing else. No.

3. Are you trying the "the game is just a game" argument now. That argument is the "have nothing else to say" and comes in two flavors: 1. trying to suppress discussion or 2. 1 & also trying to say "Don't fight back or censure us for our actions that impact you and your friends or allies."

Every action has a reaction, those are the laws of physics.

If you come after my region or my friends or my allies, I will fight back:


4. Actually it's not about cutting your friends loose. Its either TWP and Balder supported the coup of Lazarus knowing full and well that it was an LWU raider coup or they didn't know and now have time to set a precedent about what happens when coupers lie to their friends and make them look like userite tools in the process.

[Ikania]

The problem with this is that so-called "Wolfism" wasn't even suggested to be an ideology until after it was concocted as an explanation for Lazarus being ruled by Lone Wolves United. "Wolfism" only exists because you need it to.

No, not at all. As already pointed out, in the very post I just linked Indo to above even, the Wolfist Manifesto was created in 2007. It's a philosophy that has existed and been known and written about for over a decade. You're wrong in just about every way.

You lost all legitimate claims to being democratic almost a year ago, when you started importing illegal voters into Lazarus

An accusation that was never proven and was solely used by Ike and company as a justification for their failed coup attempt in July.

You have no idea what you're talking about, you're just echoing other people's lies.

Well, let's be frank here. At first it was a suspicion. It wasn't acted upon because it couldn't be proved outside circumstantial evidence.

But every action taken by the plotters since then have more or less confirmed our worst fears. It really wouldn't have been that hard to explain the overwhelming likeliness of such a thing had it really just been a coincidence that inactive raider-aligned citizens were functioning as vote bots and illegally participating in our elections to astroturf out selected incumbents with the silent consent of our election commissioner.

Anyway, glad to see Cormac has come around. I can't say I like you bud, but I love you.

Escade, you make a perfectly fine point without the gifs <3

[Nakari]

Lame. As fun as R/D is, it's a stupid basis for politics. Entire political blocs on the basis of how a region's military prefers to spend their time on missions over arbitrary regions not related to any regional casus belli?

Yes, there is struggle between raiders and defenders (hell, I led the most high-profile organization on the latter side up until a month ago - I know). But that is, or at least should be, a different layer of metagaming, in my opinion (and not just mine). The feederite/sinkerite/userite stuff isn't just a set of buzzwords, even though they have been used like that on occasion recently, but rather a very real thing. The GCRs are inherently important and since the dawn of NationStates there have been fights over them by people from pretty much any identifyable faction. The natives of GCRs (the "feederites" and "sinkerites"), who have settled in a GCR for one reason or another, therefore have to fight off the scourge of outsiders ("userites") vying for control of these very powerful and important pieces of real estate.

So no, not buzzwords. Reality.

Whether a user decided to move into a different region or not when they first joined the game isn't arbitrary in any way, then? You tell me that the GCR natives must fight off the userites but you can't tell me why. Even the definition of a userite is hazy-you, who literally just admitted to being the leader of a userite gameplay org, are somehow not a userite? How are the members of LWU, who have made Lazarus their native home, userite subversives when you, who led TGW whilst simultaneously being an influential native of TSP, are not? It's so inconsistent that the only purpose I can see for it is as a propagandist "us" and "them" label, explaining its popularity with all sides of NSGP.

How are the members of LWU who are present in Lazarus native, when nations such as Harmoneia, Drop Your Pants, Amerion etc, who had been in Lazarus for years, were all defenderist subversives who needed to be purged? If the LWU nations are native enough, weren't the nations they purged also native enough?

[Galiantus III]

The problem with this is that so-called "Wolfism" wasn't even suggested to be an ideology until after it was concocted as an explanation for Lazarus being ruled by Lone Wolves United. "Wolfism" only exists because you need it to.

No, not at all. As already pointed out, in the very post I just linked Indo to above even, the Wolfist Manifesto was created in 2007. It's a philosophy that has existed and been known and written about for over a decade. You're wrong in just about every way.

You lost all legitimate claims to being democratic almost a year ago, when you started importing illegal voters into Lazarus

An accusation that was never proven and was solely used by Ike and company as a justification for their failed coup attempt in July.

You have no idea what you're talking about, you're just echoing other people's lies.

Ah, okay. This is easily the first time most people have heard of Wolfism in a while, so excuse the assumptions. At the same time, however, you still need to explain how it is anything other than a tool for subjugating regions under LWU control.

Also, don't think I didn't notice how you tried to ignore my point about a your replacing democracy with monarchy. I don't have a preference for one or the other, here on NS, but it is fair for those outside Lazarus to see such drastic changes in government as evidence of a coup. You don't like democracy because it provides a way for others to challenge your power, so you removed it once it had served its purpose helping you acquire power.

[Roavin]

Whether a user decided to move into a different region or not when they first joined the game isn't arbitrary in any way, then?

It may be, but isn't necessarily. I very deliberately decided to stay in the region I was founded in on April 7, 2016.

You tell me that the GCR natives must fight off the userites but you can't tell me why.

Did you even read what I wrote? I told you exactly why. Here, let me quote myself:

The GCRs are inherently important and since the dawn of NationStates there have been fights over them by people from pretty much any identifyable faction. The natives of GCRs (the "feederites" and "sinkerites"), who have settled in a GCR for one reason or another, therefore have to fight off the scourge of outsiders ("userites") vying for control of these very powerful and important pieces of real estate.

It's actually the same argument as for UCR natives, except more high-stakes precisely because it involves more high-stakes regions.

Even the definition of a userite is hazy-you, who literally just admitted to being the leader of a userite gameplay org, are somehow not a userite? How are the members of LWU, who have made Lazarus their native home, userite subversives when you, who led TGW whilst simultaneously being an influential native of TSP, are not?

"Userite" refers to people with their main affiliation in a UCR seeking to exploit, subvert, or in any other way take advantage of a GCR for the benefit of that UCR. I've not done that. I have been very open about my dual role, have always said that I see TGW as a hobby and TSP as a home (for example, here), and held a strict policy of TGW keeping distance from GCRs for my entire tenure as First Warden. Indeed, you will see that while I was opposing the initial Lazarus coup last summer in my capacity in TSP, TGW maintained a neutral stance even though I could have snapped my fingers and gotten the entire machinery of TGW involved (which would have made a significant difference, as even EW himself conceded).

It's so inconsistent that the only purpose I can see for it is as a propagandist "us" and "them" label, explaining its popularity with all sides of NSGP.

I have been very consistent, as shown above.

[Killer Kitty]

How are the members of LWU who are present in Lazarus native, when nations such as Harmoneia, Drop Your Pants, Amerion etc, who had been in Lazarus for years, were all defenderist subversives who needed to be purged? If the LWU nations are native enough, weren't the nations they purged also native enough?

First, DYP was never purged.

Second, I'm trying to deconstruct your argument and I just can't because it's a total mess. Your argument can be used to state that no native should ever be banned from any region ever.

I can't even.

[Ikania]

How are the members of LWU who are present in Lazarus native, when nations such as Harmoneia, Drop Your Pants, Amerion etc, who had been in Lazarus for years, were all defenderist subversives who needed to be purged? If the LWU nations are native enough, weren't the nations they purged also native enough?

First, DYP was never purged.

Second, I'm trying to deconstruct your argument and I just can't because it's a total mess. Your argument can be used to state that no native should ever be banned from any region ever.

I can't even.

What she is pointing out, as you so blindly refuse to acknowledge, and I had stated earlier, is the egregious double standard set by your insistence that long-time natives such as Funk and yourself could never sell out the region to foreign interests, while other long-time natives with much longer tenure and experience are obviously defenderist plants who have sold their region out to foreign interests.

[McChimp]

1. Are you arguing that raiders are now supporting coups of GCRS based on real or perceived R\D alignment? This sets a dangerous tone that having raiders in your GCR could very well lead to a coup. Still, I'm glad at least it's out in the open. Some raiders at least believe that they have the right to coup GCRs to purge whoever they want without consequence. That's just how they play the "game" and they don't want you to be upset if they do it to you. You can call it whatever you want but targeting a GCR to "purge" it means that every region is now under threat of the userite raider groups.

Did you actually read any of the wolfist stuff that got published? It identifies two classes, the raider and the defender, and pledges support to the raider. It openly encourages conflict in the GCRs. You seem to have missed the whole point until now. YES.

2. It is very important how it happens. Lazarus had a democratic government, the Celestial Union, which was infiltrated and subverted by LWU. Then LWU purged all opposition, and turned Lazarus into a monarchy. Under the LWU, Lazarus was a dead region that could not get the slightest bit of activity, interest, or anything going. Then LWU, bored at the inactivity, came out with their true colors (hence this WFE)

(Image)

but some of their supporters were like "WTH?" and so they are now trying to backtrack hard.

So really the angle you're going for here is a democratic one. I mean, there's a significant body of evidence to suggest that there was going to be an anti-Funk coup (a discord server, even), so the whole "was there a democratic faction in the Celestial Union?" question is a pretty muddy one.
All of the branding in wolfist Laz is pretty poor, tbh. Wolves just aren't a great theme, it's too hard to expand upon seriously. I've seen multiple people assume it's a furry thing. The LWU stuff was pointlessly sentimental and has harmed endeavours in the short term. Across the UCRs, people saw the condemnation, looked at Lazarus and said "wow, that's a hell of a raid". It's a PR nightmare, there's no denying it. If this wasn't the case, though, I'm convinced the ideology and government could've gathered popular support. That was what I wanted to see.

TSP has has fought off two coups (one that was imperialist backed). The threats to us have never come from defenders, they have always come from the same spheres and players. Hell, Wolf tried to subvert TSP through voter importation. I never forget the players who tried to harm my region. The goal of these threats is to forcibly remove me and other TSPers who have helped to build our community over years. Then turn the region into dead space and trophies that gather dust and nothing else. No.

I'm reticent to argue with you, an influential defender in TSP, about whether defenders are in control of TSP. There hasn't been a defender coup in TSP, that's true. I think it's probably fair to say that there hasn't even been covert action in TSP committed by the defenders, or anything sinister like that. Nonetheless, a club of defenders hold the most influential positions in there and it's absurd to suggest that their R/D leanings do not affect TSP's policy.

3. Are you trying the "the game is just a game" argument now. That argument is the "have nothing else to say" and comes in two flavors: 1. trying to suppress discussion or 2. 1 & also trying to say "Don't fight back or censure us for our actions that impact you and your friends or allies."

Every action has a reaction, those are the laws of physics.

I'd like to protest that there was a point in that paragraph, you just couldn't find it. I'll try and simplify it: you yourself often demonise raiders for actions they commit even when they're not controlling GCRs. Why should they not treat you the same? Do you see how I said that without abusing Newton's third?

If you come after my region or my friends or my allies, I will fight back

Spooky stuff.

4. Actually it's not about cutting your friends loose. Its either TWP and Balder supported the coup of Lazarus knowing full and well that it was an LWU raider coup or they didn't know and now have time to set a precedent about what happens when coupers lie to their friends and make them look like userite tools in the process.

Maybe TWP and Balder like the idea of a raider-inclined Lazarus, who knows? Maybe they'd rather like to see this raider's paradise. I know I did.

[Killer Kitty]

What she is pointing out, as you so blindly refuse to acknowledge, and I had stated earlier, is the egregious double standard set by your insistence that long-time natives such as Funk and yourself could never sell out the region to foreign interests, while other long-time natives with much longer tenure and experience are obviously defenderist plants who have sold their region out to foreign interests.

I believe the true reason you guys specificlly were banned was Treason, Conspiracy, etc.

The argument falls apart when you use the actual reason, and not something you just made up to fit your narrative.

[Ikania]

What she is pointing out, as you so blindly refuse to acknowledge, and I had stated earlier, is the egregious double standard set by your insistence that long-time natives such as Funk and yourself could never sell out the region to foreign interests, while other long-time natives with much longer tenure and experience are obviously defenderist plants who have sold their region out to foreign interests.

I believe the true reason you guys specificlly were banned was Treason, Conspiracy, etc.

The argument falls apart when you use the actual reason, and not something you just made up to fit your narrative.

I explain that a double standard is set as to who can be accused of treason and who can't based on loyalty to the ones with power. You respond that yes, I was indeed banned.

This is an irrelevant point. The statement is left unanswered.

[Killer Kitty]

I explain that a double standard is set as to who can be accused of treason and who can't based on loyalty to the ones with power. You respond that yes, I was indeed banned.

This is an irrelevant point. The statement is left unanswered.

You're basically arguing that no one is a true native, and no one can really accuse anyone of treason because no one has the moral authority and that everything is invalid forever. >_>

[McChimp]

It may be, but isn't necessarily. I very deliberately decided to stay in the region I was founded in on April 7, 2016.

But as an uninformed action, I see no way that can give you greater claim to said region. This will become important later in this post.

Did you even read what I wrote? I told you exactly why... It's actually the same argument as for UCR natives, except more high-stakes precisely because it involves more high-stakes regions.

On a second reading, I see some of the reasoning but do not think it gives greater intellectual weight to francoism. The GCRs may be a valuable prize, but the difference between a userite and a feederite is still very much rooted in the idea of nativeness, a notoriously shaky concept.
I'd argue that there is even an inherently undemocratic aspect to this point of view. In theory, it denies newcomers to the region from UCRs the opportunity to gain influence on the premise alone that they would have to take that influence from those who already possess it simply because influence in a GCR is a precious thing. On the other hand, it suggests that those who do not leave the region for whatever reason upon their founding somehow have a right to that influence despite the fact that they're trying to take it from the same people. As discussed above, the difference between the two groups is arbitrary and therefore this discrimination based upon it is also arbitrary.

"Userite" refers to people with their main affiliation in a UCR seeking to exploit, subvert, or in any other way take advantage of a GCR for the benefit of that UCR. I've not done that. I have been very open about my dual role, have always said that I see TGW as a hobby and TSP as a home (for example, here), and held a strict policy of TGW keeping distance from GCRs for my entire tenure as First Warden. Indeed, you will see that while I was opposing the initial Lazarus coup last summer in my capacity in TSP, TGW maintained a neutral stance even though I could have snapped my fingers and gotten the entire machinery of TGW involved (which would have made a significant difference, as even EW himself conceded).

Maybe you thought that involving TGW directly would be too obvious a move. As we're demonstrating here, the optics of a UCR getting involved in GCRs are remarkably poor. Maybe any pro-defender influence you've had on TSP has been indirect, affecting opinion rather than deployment, still benefiting the defender cause. Maybe you are in fact whiter than white, and your defender opinions haven't affected TSP at all. Can the same be said for all of the other defenders in TSP or TRR? Where on that continuum does the line between an honest native and a userite subversive lie? Again, more vagueness. This creates these arguments about who is being subverted by who that go on and on and on. The whole idea of userite subversion is flawed.

[Ikania]

I explain that a double standard is set as to who can be accused of treason and who can't based on loyalty to the ones with power. You respond that yes, I was indeed banned.

This is an irrelevant point. The statement is left unanswered.

You're basically arguing that no one is a true native, and no one can really accuse anyone of treason because no one has the moral authority and that everything is invalid forever. >_>

Not at all. Here is what I am saying.

Natives can, in fact, betray their region. There is nothing inherently wrong with accusing us natives of treason, though I regard it to be a libellous falsehood. The issue taken, however, is when the regime attempts to hold up their native-ness as proof of their credibility. The idea of perpetrating a coup on the behalf of an outside force somehow falls apart because the perpetrators are such dedicated natives. I don't buy this, and I wouldn't buy it from anyone. A traitor is a traitor and a quisling is a quisling. You are a traitor and you have free rein to label me as such, but I will take particular issue with trying to use nativity as your strength and our weakness.

[Of The Toads]

I explain that a double standard is set as to who can be accused of treason and who can't based on loyalty to the ones with power. You respond that yes, I was indeed banned.

This is an irrelevant point. The statement is left unanswered.

You're basically arguing that no one is a true native, and no one can really accuse anyone of treason because no one has the moral authority and that everything is invalid forever. >_>

Went from can't even to logic fast... Must be an idiot savant. Im honored to have finally met one.

[Kyrusia]

You're basically arguing that no one is a true native, and no one can really accuse anyone of treason because no one has the moral authority and that everything is invalid forever. >_>

Went from can't even to logic fast... Must be an idiot savant. Im honored to have finally met one.

Of The Toads: *** Warning for flaming. ***

[Galiantus III]

I explain that a double standard is set as to who can be accused of treason and who can't based on loyalty to the ones with power. You respond that yes, I was indeed banned.

This is an irrelevant point. The statement is left unanswered.

You're basically arguing that no one is a true native, and no one can really accuse anyone of treason because no one has the moral authority and that everything is invalid forever. >_>

Q: Did high ranking members of LWU use their position as natives to remove the legitimate government of Lazarus, the LCU, from the region?
A: Yes.

Q: Does that constitute subversion and treachery?
A: Yes.

I acknowledge you and other members of LWU are Lazarus natives. However, you used your position to overthrow a legitimate government. It might be arguable that the LCU had defender subversives in it (I don't know enough to make an argument there) but even if that were the case, you yourself have gone to the extreme compared to those defender subversives, if there were any. If this really were about removing defender subversives from Lazarus, you would not have changed the government, abandoned the LCU, and instituted despotism. Instead, you would have simply replaced the subversives and kept the LCU intact. It is because you did not do this that people are finally beginning to wake up to the fact that it is you and the rest of the fluff-balls who call themselves wolves that are the real traitors.

[Escade]

1. Are you arguing that raiders are now supporting coups of GCRS based on real or perceived R\D alignment? This sets a dangerous tone that having raiders in your GCR could very well lead to a coup. Still, I'm glad at least it's out in the open. Some raiders at least believe that they have the right to coup GCRs to purge whoever they want without consequence. That's just how they play the "game" and they don't want you to be upset if they do it to you. You can call it whatever you want but targeting a GCR to "purge" it means that every region is now under threat of the userite raider groups.

Did you actually read any of the wolfist stuff that got published? It identifies two classes, the raider and the defender, and pledges support to the raider. It openly encourages conflict in the GCRs. You seem to have missed the whole point until now. YES.

2. It is very important how it happens. Lazarus had a democratic government, the Celestial Union, which was infiltrated and subverted by LWU. Then LWU purged all opposition, and turned Lazarus into a monarchy. Under the LWU, Lazarus was a dead region that could not get the slightest bit of activity, interest, or anything going. Then LWU, bored at the inactivity, came out with their true colors (hence this WFE)

(Image)

but some of their supporters were like "WTH?" and so they are now trying to backtrack hard.

So really the angle you're going for here is a democratic one. I mean, there's a significant body of evidence to suggest that there was going to be an anti-Funk coup (a discord server, even), so the whole "was there a democratic faction in the Celestial Union?" question is a pretty muddy one.
All of the branding in wolfist Laz is pretty poor, tbh. Wolves just aren't a great theme, it's too hard to expand upon seriously. I've seen multiple people assume it's a furry thing. The LWU stuff was pointlessly sentimental and has harmed endeavours in the short term. Across the UCRs, people saw the condemnation, looked at Lazarus and said "wow, that's a hell of a raid". It's a PR nightmare, there's no denying it. If this wasn't the case, though, I'm convinced the ideology and government could've gathered popular support. That was what I wanted to see.

TSP has has fought off two coups (one that was imperialist backed). The threats to us have never come from defenders, they have always come from the same spheres and players. Hell, Wolf tried to subvert TSP through voter importation. I never forget the players who tried to harm my region. The goal of these threats is to forcibly remove me and other TSPers who have helped to build our community over years. Then turn the region into dead space and trophies that gather dust and nothing else. No.

I'm reticent to argue with you, an influential defender in TSP, about whether defenders are in control of TSP. There hasn't been a defender coup in TSP, that's true. I think it's probably fair to say that there hasn't even been covert action in TSP committed by the defenders, or anything sinister like that. Nonetheless, a club of defenders hold the most influential positions in there and it's absurd to suggest that their R/D leanings do not affect TSP's policy.

3. Are you trying the "the game is just a game" argument now. That argument is the "have nothing else to say" and comes in two flavors: 1. trying to suppress discussion or 2. 1 & also trying to say "Don't fight back or censure us for our actions that impact you and your friends or allies."

Every action has a reaction, those are the laws of physics.

I'd like to protest that there was a point in that paragraph, you just couldn't find it. I'll try and simplify it: you yourself often demonise raiders for actions they commit even when they're not controlling GCRs. Why should they not treat you the same? Do you see how I said that without abusing Newton's third?

If you come after my region or my friends or my allies, I will fight back

Spooky stuff.

4. Actually it's not about cutting your friends loose. Its either TWP and Balder supported the coup of Lazarus knowing full and well that it was an LWU raider coup or they didn't know and now have time to set a precedent about what happens when coupers lie to their friends and make them look like userite tools in the process.

Maybe TWP and Balder like the idea of a raider-inclined Lazarus, who knows? Maybe they'd rather like to see this raider's paradise. I know I did.

I've numbered things because the quotes within quotes isn't working quite right.

1. So everyone supporting the coup was in on it from the beginning and supports this ideology where some random raiders want to infiltrate and subvert GCRs to start wars? Good to know that the userite raider menace is real.

2. Nyet. The first point has been argued to death. From your perspective you think players should just roll over and be invaded by raider userites without complaining or trying to fight back. Every GCR would try to take actions and protect themselves. A group that first purges all dissenters then forces through, with outsider support, a government change is the worst fear of most GCRs. Most of the GCRs today have to worry about internal coups moreso than external ones.

Then, the second point seems like whining about why the regional activity has been dead for awhile. Themes don't make or break activity or stop a region from being active for several months. Players do. Any set of competent players can take a lukewarm theme and bring it to life. This is a case of trying to blame the theme for the players lack of ability.

3. I've been a defender for only a year, and in a few days it will be the 5 year anniversary of my main (took a break in between). The reason that TSP, as a region, democratically elects players has less to do with their R\D ideology than their contributions to the region over time.

I've held many titles in TSP over the years I've been active and guess what my pride is that we don't bow down to anyone, especially raider userites. Not that some of your fellows didn't try voter importation among other nasty tricks which is why they get the reception they do. It's also fair to say that my and some of my region's views of a subset of raiders, such as yourself, comes from direct interactions (such as those in the TSP embassy thread where a lot of hostility by the raider userite faction was initiated against us or from those voter importation attempts).

4. I have little direct interaction with raiders from certain spheres unless stalked on my own region's embassy thread. If certain userites feel threatened by the mere idea of my posting positive vibes about the things I love, then that speaks to their own precarious position and inferiority complexes.

Your actions have resulted in the reaction and receptions you receive. LWU's actions are why other GCRs may take a good hard look at the raider userite menace in their own regions.

5. Really? To say that players love the regions they built over time and will try their best to protect them is spooky? And I wonder what you would call taking regions away from the people who supported and built them up over years. The fact is that every GCR community would try their utmost hardest to fight back against coupers and purgers.

6. It saddens me because I know that each GCR, as is stands now, would want their communities to fight against such raider userite plans to turn their regions into mere dead spaces. Can't keep the warzone Lazarus alive, what else gets to die a slow agonizing death into ignominy ?

[McChimp]

As a pretext, I'm not going to rehash the discussion I just had with Roavin about whether the francoist "userite/feederite" perpective is worth applying. That's worth reading, I think. It was good.

1. So everyone supporting the coup was in on it from the beginning and supports this ideology where some random raiders want to infiltrate and subvert GCRs to start wars? Good to know that the userite raider menace is real.

I dunno whether that was the plan from the start or whether everyone knew what the plan was from the start. I wasn't there from the start. I jumped on when I saw stuff I liked. The people in charge of Lazarus are definitely a raider menance (actually wrote that as a genuine typo, leaving it in) to their enemies.

2. Nyet. The first point has been argued to death. From your perspective you think players should just roll over and be invaded by raider userites without complaining or trying to fight back. Every GCR would try to take actions and protect themselves. A group that first purges all dissenters then forces through, with outsider support, a government change is the worst fear of most GCRs. Most of the GCRs today have to worry about internal coups moreso than external ones.

Then, the second point seems like whining about why the regional activity has been dead for awhile. Themes don't make or break activity or stop a region from being active for several months. Players do. Any set of competent players can take a lukewarm theme and bring it to life. This is a case of trying to blame the theme for the players lack of ability.

I don't really care if they fight back or not. Personally I rather liked the ideas and thought that they'd form an interesting and eventually stable GCR, something new to spice things up. If anything I think the Wolfist encouragement of GCR conflict demands pushback rather than discourages it. They're probably rather enjoying all of the resistance.

I know you're not a great fan of criticism, Escade, but you could respond to it differently at least once. It was even about a group you don't like this time and you still called it whining. It's good to accept that there are different opinions in the world, you know? There's no greater sin than knowing that you're right.

3. I've been a defender for only a year, and in a few days it will be the 5 year anniversary of my main (took a break in between). The reason that TSP, as a region, democratically elects players has less to do with their R\D ideology than their contributions to the region over time.

I've held many titles in TSP over the years I've been active and guess what my pride [Why say "guess what" here? You realise that sounding aggressive is rhetorically detrimental, don't you?] is that we don't bow down to anyone, especially raider userites. Not that some of your fellows didn't try voter importation among other nasty tricks which is why they get the reception they do. It's also fair to say that my and some of my region's views of a subset of raiders, such as yourself, comes from direct interactions (such as those in the TSP embassy thread where a lot of hostility by the raider userite faction was initiated against us or from those voter importation attempts).

Either way TSP is still ruled by defenders. The second paragraph here is like one of Ike's speeches but done much less eloquently. I think the issue with it is that it's an attempt to change my mind emotionally whilst I'm trying to have a logical debate with you. It doesn't work.

4. I have little direct interaction with raiders from certain spheres unless stalked on my own region's embassy thread. If certain userites feel threatened by the mere idea of my posting positive vibes about the things I love, then that speaks to their own precarious position and inferiority complexes.

The line is a little blurry in a game based on text, but have you ever thought that people might argue with you because they personally disagree with you rather than because they feel threatened by you? I see no reason to criticise someone for challenging your agreement with ideas that they themselves disagree with. It's not just fine, in fact, it's important that people do that. It seems unreasonable to respond to them with threatening and insulting rhetoric. Nobody here has an inferiority complex about you, Escade. There'd need to be people here inferior to you for that.

Your actions have resulted in the reaction and receptions you receive. LWU's actions are why other GCRs may take a good hard look at the raider userite menace in their own regions.

I don't feel particularly isolated. Nobody I talked to before this has become any more hostile because of the position I took for a short while. Honestly I don't see what you're trying to get at here.

5. Really? To say that players love the regions they built over time and will try their best to protect them is spooky? And I wonder what you would call taking regions away from the people who supported and built them up over years. The fact is that every GCR community would try their utmost hardest to fight back against coupers and purgers.

No, I was being sarcastic about the warning you made. Not that you didn't know that.

6. It saddens me because I know that each GCR, as is stands now, would want their communities to fight against such raider userite plans to turn their regions into mere dead spaces. Can't keep the warzone Lazarus alive, what else gets to die a slow agonizing death into ignominy ?

You're right. It is sad that on this flawed thing most of the GCRs are in agreement. Whether Lazarus is actually falling inactive has been discussed at least five different times in this thread and I'm not getting into it. Still, though. If it's got to the point where TSP is applying namecalling to a whole region, perhaps the userite cause is not lost in Lazarus yet.

[Killer Kitty]

If it's got to the point where TSP is applying namecalling to a whole region, perhaps the userite cause is not lost in Lazarus yet.

I've noticed that TSP is slowly going from "We don't like LWU Lazarus" to "We don't like Undead Lazarus" to "We don't like Wolfist Lazarus" to "We don't like Warzone Lazarus" to "We don't like Lazarus".

It's slow progress, but we're getting there.