The One Stop Shop for Your Lazarus Scandal Needs!

[Killer Kitty]

This ongoing takeover by LWU is a textbook example of userite subjugation of a GCR for their own gain

Aren't you in Gatesville?

[Cormactopia Prime]

Did The West Pacific also support the Brotherhood of Malice trophy period between the KRO and OFO₁?

Fairly sure they did, yes. I don't think their military was involved (not sure they had much of a military at that time), but I seem to recall them releasing a statement recognizing our Delegate's right to govern the region as he saw fit. Which is pretty par for the course for them.

More directly, did The West Pacific support United RussoAsia's right to give The West Pacific to DEN?

No, but the West Pacific has always supported the right of the regional population to reject their Delegate, same as they've supported the right of the sitting Delegate to govern as they see fit. It's about game mechanics for them. Within their own region, they rose up and rejected the DEN Delegate as was their right in their own region. In matters of foreign affairs, they recognize the sitting Delegate on a de facto basis and leave rejection of the sitting Delegate to the native population, where that decision rightly belongs. There is no actual contradiction there.

Wasn't Pierconium responsible for NPO foreign affairs when OFO₂ left the Accords?

As you know, the Emperor is ultimately in charge of all affairs of the NPO, and Pergamon quite clearly has the ear of the Emperor. I don't think it's an accident that Pierconium resigned over that incident rather than remaining in charge of the NPO's foreign affairs. If he had backed the course of action Aleisyr had chosen, under Pergamon's influence, he would have remained in his role and just told Osiris to walk like an Egyptian.

By giving Pergamon free reign to undermine the NPO's alliances, Aleisyr has essentially undone Pierconium's foreign affairs achievements. It's unfortunate, because I don't think anyone could ever have expected the NPO could accomplish so much, so quickly, but under Pierconium the NPO was able to rebuild its credibility at a surprising pace. That is now being completely erased by Pergamon, with Aleisyr's blessing. I'm not sure how the West Pacific can remain an ally of the NPO now with their Tribune and Senator openly accusing the West Pacific of selling out to raiders. It's just another example of how the NPO treats its allies under this regime, which is more likely to side with hostile defenders than its own allies.

Also, isn't the core NPO stance that alliances by GCRs with UCRs are fraught with the danger of domination by the UCRs, and that GCRs must oppose such domination? Should we expect the NPO to value alliances with other regions over their core values?

As far as I'm aware, the NPO moved on from Francoism years ago. At least that's what Pierconium had often said. Under his rule, the NPO took a much more pragmatic approach in recognizing the authority of the sitting Delegate, similar if not identical to the West Pacific's own philosophy.

Regardless, I don't think it's at all unreasonable to expect that the NPO would respect an ally's philosophy enough not to question their ally's integrity, when that philosophy has been public knowledge and totally consistent for years -- predating the current NPO-TWP alliance. If they had such an irreconcilable problem with the West Pacific's philosophy, why establish the alliance at all? The answer is because the NPO of the past didn't have a problem with it. It's Pergamon's NPO, which throws its allies under the bus in favor of defenders, that has the problem with it.

@Cormac: Actually I believe it was TWP philosophy at one time to oppose foreign takeovers - the key is foreign. They’re different shades of anarchism. One believes the delegacy of a GCR is fair game for all native residents to pursue (a kind of grassroots anarchism), the other believes the delegacy is fair game for anyone including foreign powers to pursue - which endorses imperialism and the annexation of regions against the will of the grassroots community.

This, perhaps technical, distinction is why most coups in the past pretended to not have a direct connection to a foreign power. Gatesville and NPO often failed to provide plausible deniability in those regards...

Truth though is TWP’s own colleagues are involved in this; their position will be decided based on politics and association, rather than ideological consistency.

I don't think the West Pacific has ever actually made that distinction. If they did, it hasn't been in the time I've been playing at least, which has now spanned more than six years. They didn't make that distinction during any of the coups in Osiris, at least. Gatesville raised its flag over Osiris and linked its forum on our WFE, but the West Pacific supported them until the Aezean Combine's involvement was revealed. Venico, Koth, and I raised the Brotherhood of Malice flag over Osiris and declared Osiris BoM's protectorate, but the West Pacific supported Venico's right to govern.

I'm not sure how you even determine "foreign" in a Feeder or Sinker anyway, if I'm being honest. Sure, I've thrown the word around before in propaganda because it's a potent word. But are Funkadelia, Lamb Stone, and Evil Wolf really "foreign" when they've spent years as natives of Lazarus? Are people involved in multiple regions "foreign" in all of them because they are involved in other regions? The truth is that the very concept of "foreign" in NationStates is a fluid concept, because most of us are "foreign" to a degree, or were at some point. At least in gameplay regions, rare is the native who has been confined only to one region throughout their time in NationStates, and who has never had any feeling of loyalty to any other region in which they've been involved. So "foreign" is essentially a useless concept to apply here.

This is a Certified Hot Take(tm). If TWP didn't have prior knowledge that supporting a userite takeover of a GCR would piss off the NPO (y'know, the whole founders of the Userite vs Feederite thing), then that's TWP's piss poor diplomacy.

See above. The NPO knew this was the West Pacific's philosophy when they established the alliance. If they didn't like it, they shouldn't have established the alliance in the first place -- but of course, as I've noted, there was no problem with that philosophy in the NPO of the past. It's Pergamon's NPO that has the problem, because Pergamon's NPO has bought into the quasi-defender "Francoism" hybrid of the PRL/NLO period, which was and remains a total fraud and existed only to (badly, in the end) serve the NPO's imperialistic purposes in Lazarus and elsewhere.

[Lord Dominator]

So who wants to take bets with me on when, if ever, Osiris will end up removing the claim to being the largest raider region in the world, since Lazarus now has them beat by a couple hundred nations?

[Lenlyvit]

So who wants to take bets with me on when, if ever, Osiris will end up removing the claim to being the largest raider region in the world, since Lazarus now has them beat by a couple hundred nations?

Oh, I will! Maybe in a month.

[Davelands]

Thank you Cormac for twice saving me a lot of typing today. :-)
Not that I would have bothered. I'm quite comfortable with my decisions and see no need to defend myself against others' opinions of The West Pacific.

For a very long time we have been quite consistent in our philosophy. We believe in the Sovereignty of the Delegacy and we stand by our treaties.

This is an internal change by the Delegate and his chosen successor. Nowhere has there been any indication that Funk has been forced into these moves. As such, we will stand by the new Delegate. It is their choices. If in the future the native population (not the native population under control of an external force) decides that they wish for a change and make that change to become the new, legitimate government of Lazarus, then we will let them be.

TWP also has a treaty with Lazarus that is still in effect. We will assist the sovereign government in defending themselves against outside forces using whatever means are at our disposal.

Consistency... We don't agree with TSP on most things but we do not interfere with their right to run their region as they see fit. Heck, we didn't even complain much when they slipped a clause into their recent treaties in a pathetic attempt to make their treaties the primary ones. And we have more in common with NPO in the userite/feederite space than most people give us credit for. However in this case we are standing by our history and principals. I certainly hope that any disruption this causes in our relationship is temporary but it's their region to do as they see fit.

[Lord Dominator]

Is the Civil War that was lost 6 months ago back on?

WA campaign telegramThe Free Lazarus Campaign of Rakdoz → region: Lazarus, -tag: wa
8 minutes ago
TempestShadow,

Your help is urgently needed to help save Lazarus!

Lazarus has been captured by Lone Wolves United. Don't believe anything Aleister or his cronies tell you, because they are usurping your region for their own benefit.

But don't panic: There are people working to free you. If you want to fight back and help your allies like the Pacific, The North Pacific, and the South Pacific free you, you need to follow these instructions:

First, you will need to join the World Assembly. Make sure you have an email address so you can receive the confirmation email, then go to the World Assembly page and click the "Apply to Join" button. Next, open your email and click the link to confirm that you do indeed want to join the WA. Please be aware you are only allowed to have one nation in the WA at a time. Congratulations! You are now a member of the WA!

Second, make sure you are NOT endorsing Aleister, Killer Kitty, Imkiville Delescluze, or Chef Big Dog. If you are endorsing any of these nations, withdraw your endorsement from them immediately.

Third, endorse Courlany, Darkium, Aigania, The New California Republic, and also endorse as many other people as you can.

The fate of the region hangs in the balance, and your commitment is what will decide the difference whether Lazarus remains a free and soveriegn region, or becomes the puppet of the Lone Wolves United.

Viva la revolución! Sic semper tyrannis!
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Copy-pasted as-is, the only differenceso being in any bbcode tags not being present.

[Pencil Sharpeners 2]

So who wants to take bets with me on when, if ever, Osiris will end up removing the claim to being the largest raider region in the world, since Lazarus now has them beat by a couple hundred nations?

Likely Osiris will go through another coup/crisis/kerfuffle before they get around to this.

[Sarakart]

The New California Republic has already acquiesced to the new regime, if you check the RMB for Lazarus, so either they're lying or the Free Lazarus movement can't keep proper track of who's they're supposed to endorse.

[Lord Dominator]

The New California Republic has already acquiesced to the new regime, if you check the RMB for Lazarus, so either they're lying or the Free Lazarus movement can't keep proper track of who's they're supposed to endorse.

I was guessing that they were just naming high-endo people who aren't in the government

[Sarakart]

The New California Republic has already acquiesced to the new regime, if you check the RMB for Lazarus, so either they're lying or the Free Lazarus movement can't keep proper track of who's they're supposed to endorse.

I was guessing that they were just naming high-endo people who aren't in the government

Poor NCR is trying to get his count down so he can get under endorsement cap and people are trying to re-endorse him

[Lord Dominator]

I was guessing that they were just naming high-endo people who aren't in the government

Poor NCR is trying to get his delegate count down so he can get under endorsement cap and people are trying to re-endorse him

[Galiantus III]

This ongoing takeover by LWU is a textbook example of userite subjugation of a GCR for their own gain

Aren't you in Gatesville?

Yeah, but what has that got to do with anything? I can advocate in favor of GCR sovereignty from any region.

I was guessing that they were just naming high-endo people who aren't in the government

Poor NCR is trying to get his count down so he can get under endorsement cap and people are trying to re-endorse him

That's the idea, it would seem.

[Killer Kitty]

Aren't you in Gatesville?

Yeah, but what has that got to do with anything?

Perhaps you are not familiar with Gatesville history.

[Pencil Sharpeners 2]

I think it may be time for the Lazarus debate to be declared 'NSGP-complete'. Every NSGP debate can be transformed to the Lazarus debate in polynomial time.

[Galiantus III]

Yeah, but what has that got to do with anything?

Perhaps you are not familiar with Gatesville history.

Oh I am quite familiar. I have direct contact with several of the original members of GV who are still around.

[Killer Kitty]

Oh I am quite familiar. I have direct contact with several of the original members of GV who are still around.

Maybe you need to talk to Nevadar more then.

[Galiantus III]

Oh I am quite familiar. I have direct contact with several of the original members of GV who are still around.

Maybe you need to talk to Nevadar more then.

What about? How important regional sovereignty is? Because that is a pretty central belief of Gatesville, and one of the values Nevadar has insisted Gatesville live by.

[Killer Kitty]

What about? How important regional sovereignty is? Because that is a pretty central belief of Gatesville, and one of the values Nevadar has insisted Gatesville live by.

No, about the one time LWU, Gatesville, and TWP took over The East Pacific...

[Galiantus III]

What about? How important regional sovereignty is? Because that is a pretty central belief of Gatesville, and one of the values Nevadar has insisted Gatesville live by.

No, about the one time LWU, Gatesville, and TWP took over The East Pacific...

Ooooh, so you're saying that since I'm a part of Gatesville and I'm not willing to compromise on my values that makes me a traitor. Got it. Well if Nevadar tells me I should support your regime I will. But for now I am following the principals I believe in.

[Solorni]

No, about the one time LWU, Gatesville, and TWP took over The East Pacific...

Ooooh, so you're saying that since I'm a part of Gatesville and I'm not willing to compromise on my values that makes me a traitor. Got it. Well if Nevadar tells me I should support your regime I will. But for now I am following the principals I believe in.

But you're not from the real Gatesville region though, you're only from Gatesville Inc.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Maybe you need to talk to Nevadar more then.

What about? How important regional sovereignty is? Because that is a pretty central belief of Gatesville, and one of the values Nevadar has insisted Gatesville live by.

Well it's taken me a few minutes, but I've finally finished laughing.

You definitely do need to have a talk with Nevadar, because Gatesville's regional sovereignty philosophy applies to Gatesville. As she once described it to me, Gatesville is a proudly userite regions, and they do not look on Feeders and Sinkers as sovereign regions -- they look on them as regions controlled by a central figure (whom she regards as being like the region's Founder), and if power slips from that central figure, it is their problem and not Gatesville's. In her view the sovereignty of a region rests in the region's Founder. If a region doesn't have a Founder, the situation is more fluid.

I can say with 100% certainty Nevadar would have no problem with what's happening in Lazarus. She'd probably be supporting it. Enthusiastically.

[Vespertania]

.

I can say with 100% certainty Nevadar would have no problem with what's happening in Lazarus. She'd probably be supporting it. Enthusiastically.

That's quite a claim to make. But can you prove it here?

[Galiantus III]

What about? How important regional sovereignty is? Because that is a pretty central belief of Gatesville, and one of the values Nevadar has insisted Gatesville live by.

Well it's taken me a few minutes, but I've finally finished laughing.

You definitely do need to have a talk with Nevadar, because Gatesville's regional sovereignty philosophy applies to Gatesville. As she once described it to me, Gatesville is a proudly userite regions, and they do not look on Feeders and Sinkers as sovereign regions -- they look on them as regions controlled by a central figure (whom she regards as being like the region's Founder), and if power slips from that central figure, it is their problem and not Gatesville's. In her view the sovereignty of a region rests in the region's Founder. If a region doesn't have a Founder, the situation is more fluid.

I can say with 100% certainty Nevadar would have no problem with what's happening in Lazarus. She'd probably be supporting it. Enthusiastically.

Within the past few weeks she has insisted on Gatesville being a defender region. She was so adamant, in fact, that she rejected allowing me to run military operations against the WA in Gatesville's name, because that would "be a breach of regional sovereignty". Hence why I've decided to advertise Gilgamesh openly here on the GP forums. In other words, I disagree with Nevadar on what it means to protect regional sovereignty, but I'm not going to leave Gatesville over it.

[Unibot III]

I don't think the West Pacific has ever actually made that distinction. If they did, it hasn't been in the time I've been playing at least, which has now spanned more than six years. They didn't make that distinction during any of the coups in Osiris, at least. Gatesville raised its flag over Osiris and linked its forum on our WFE, but the West Pacific supported them until the Aezean Combine's involvement was revealed. Venico, Koth, and I raised the Brotherhood of Malice flag over Osiris and declared Osiris BoM's protectorate, but the West Pacific supported Venico's right to govern.

The foreign distinction is an extremely important part to the philosophy because otherwise TWP wouldn’t have grounds to abstain from a counter-invasion / liberation - if it’s okay for a foreign power to invade a GCR, it’s fair for a foreign power to participate in a liberation of a foreign power! TWP’s officials never wanted to participate in liberations, so they’d tout their line about foreign impositions - problem is they couldn’t keep their bullshit straight: the moment their allies have couped a GCR they’ve been too giddy about it to keep their story straight.

As for Davelands suggesting TWP respects TSP’s way of governance, now I’ve seen everything. TWP declared war over that, man. TWP’s dislike of “forum democracies” was used as a wedge between TWP and TSP on TWP’s behalf - they would never have burned diplomatic bridges with TEP in the same manner, despite TEP and TSP both having forum-based democracies.

[Vadia]

I see you are back. Remember when you said someone bullied someone into not running, and Catalyse, the person you said was bullied, said you were full of crap?

So, remember when you said that Lazarus was going to belong to the natives and that outsiders shouldn't be controling it, then you said we were outsiders and puppets, and that the other side totally wasn't LWU?

Cormactopia iv → region: the Rejected Realms
217 days ago

Hey there, Vadia! Your fellow Reject, Cormactopia iv here with a quick request...

I am asking today for your endorsement to be the next Delegate of the Rejected Realms. I am also asking you to withdraw your endorsements from The Church of Satan, Zyonn, and Unibot III, to facilitate a more speedy transition.

Why am I asking for your endorsement for Delegate? An unpleasant incident has occurred over the past few days via the Regional Message Board in which Unibot III intimidated Catalyse to withdraw from a free, fair, and thoroughly democratic election for Delegate via the regional forum. Rather than putting a stop to this intimidation campaign by condemning Unibot III's behavior and suppressing his posts, The Church of Satan stood by and allowed Unibot III to discourage democracy in the Rejected Realms. In fact, The Church of Satan had the audacity to click the "Like" button on one of Unibot III's attack posts, demonstrating his approval of Unibot III's tactics and implicitly encouraging him to continue. All of this can be seen in the below Regional Message Board posts:

page=rmb/postid=26661032
page=rmb/postid=26661114
page=rmb/postid=26666203
page=rmb/postid=26675746
page=rmb/postid=26680775

This is not the first time that The Church of Satan has, as Delegate, allowed the Regional Message Board of the Rejected Realms to descend into incivility and indecency. He does not understand that in a region such as the Rejected Realms, which has no means to eject troublemakers intent on disrupting the community, a Delegate must use all of the tools at his or her disposal to do his best to protect the community from such troublemakers. I do understand that, and that is why I am asking for your endorsement as Delegate today.

If I am elected Delegate of the Rejected Realms with your endorsement, I will enforce strict standards of civility and decency on the Regional Message Board. That will be my focus as Delegate. That is the sole reason I want to be Delegate -- there is nothing more, and nothing less, on my agenda. The current government will otherwise be free to continue as it always has via the existing forum, and will be empowered with Regional Officer positions to carry out their government tasks. I will participate only as much or as little as the government wants, provided I am not impeded in bringing civility and decency back to the Regional Message Board.

If the current government can't accept this agenda to bring civility and decency back to the Regional Message Board, in the coming days I will put forward my own comprehensive vision for the future of the Rejected Realms, including a new off-site community as an alternative to the existing forum and Discord server. Should a new off-site community become necessary, all residents of the Rejected Realms will be invited and encouraged to participate provided they are participating in good faith. You may hear more about this in the coming days, depending on how the situation unfolds. Stay tuned to the Regional Message Board and your telegram inbox.

I hope you will do me the honor of endorsing me to be your next Delegate, so that I can restore basic civility and decency to the Regional Message Board. I will be happy to accept support from any and all current or prospective residents of the Rejected Realms -- we're all Rejects and I am proud to have the endorsement of any present or future Reject. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact me by telegram. I can also be reached via Discord at Cormac#9408."

Yeah, but what has that got to do with anything?

Perhaps you are not familiar with Gatesville history.

Perhaps you are not familiar with the history of LWU or Lazarus. You live in a glass house.