Lazarus - Statement Regarding The Roman Empire

[Linkinson]

Treaty of Regenesis

We, the sister Sinker regions of Balder and Lazarus, hereinafter jointly referred to as "the signatories", hereby enter into this treaty to advance the mutual interests and security of our sovereign regions.

Article I: Mutual Recognition

1. The signatories recognize the constitutional governments in force at the time of ratification of this treaty and any legitimate successor governments as the sole and sovereign governments of their respective sinker regions.

By the way, on what grounds has Balder decided to violate the Treaty of Regenesis by supporting a coup d'etat against the Dominion of Lazarus, which was the "legitimate," constitutional successor to the Undead Dominion of Lazarus? The LWU coup government isn't a legal successor to the Dominion.

Balder has assessed the Khanate of Lazarus to be the legitimate successor to the Undead Dominion. That assessment is entirely reasonable.

The argument that establishing the Khanate of Lazarus involved a coup against the immediate prior government is facetious in the extreme. The Khanate of Lazarus is a thematic and ideological rebranding actually performed by the previous government. The Dominion government no longer exists as a separate entity and its officials are now uniformly part of the Khanate, the new government set up by the Dominion. Even the defender conspirators now protesting against the sovereignty of Lazarus have, in the course of the discussion over the last few days, advanced arguments predicated on genuine continuity between the Undead Dominion and the Khanate. From a factual perspective, the Khanate is clearly the Dominion's successor.

Unlike other treaty wordings where the successor government is defined purely in legal terms, the text of the Treaty of Regenesis does not bind Balder to adopt only a legalistic view of the legitimate government of Lazarus. The wording of such clauses is a choice which regions make when they enter into treaties of this kind, based on the circumstances of the regions concerned. Balder will always uphold whatever treaty it has entered into. Balder will never give into public pressure to betray our allies coming from those who have already been declared persona non grata for acting against Balder's interests.

[Guy]

What I can surmise from this is that Balder cares more about the fact it doesn’t like TRR than the fact Lazarus is going around accusing people of being fascist-sympathisers.

[Onderkelkia]

What I can surmise from this is that Balder cares more about the fact it doesn’t like TRR than the fact Lazarus is going around accusing people of being fascist-sympathisers.

Who said anything about the relationship between Balder and The Rejected Realms?

The above discussion relates to Cormac's argument about the Treaty of Regenesis. No one from Balder has posted anything in defence of that article.

Balder disagrees with the article published on Liberate Kaiserreich. The Rejected Realms's history of publishing inaccurate and derogatory media articles about Balder is entirely irrelevant to Balder's assessment of the Lazarus newspaper article. The only party inserting the Balder-TRR dispute into this is you.

[Guy]

I got that from:

Balder will never give into public pressure to betray our allies coming from those who have already been declared persona non grata for acting against Balder's interests.

Regardless, even if you assert that your relationship with TRR is not affecting your response to Lazarus’ article, then the point remain: You care more about your treaty with Lazarus than the fact that they’re calling people fascist sympathisers. I don’t really understand why your in-game alignment feeds into your response to something so abhorrent.

Oh, and equivocating between your issues with TRR’s article (where you were called a ‘sinkerist’) and an article that falsely accuses people of being fascist-sympathisers is pretty disgusting.

[Onderkelkia]

I got that from:

Balder will never give into public pressure to betray our allies coming from those who have already been declared persona non grata for acting against Balder's interests.

The Statsminister is referring to Cormac, not The Rejected Realms. Cormac has been persona non grata within Balder for some time.

That should have been perfectly apparent from the fact the Statsminister was replying to Cormac's criticisms over the treaty.

Regardless, even if you assert that your relationship with TRR is not affecting your response to Lazarus’ article, then the point remain: You care more about your treaty with Lazarus than the fact that they’re calling people fascist sympathisers. The only decent thing to do is to tell them to stuff off.

Oh, and equivocating between your issues with TRR’s article (where you were called a ‘sinkerist’) and an article that falsely accuses people of being fascist-sympathisers is pretty disgusting.

No one is "equivocating" between anything. No statement suggested equivalence. You referred to Balder not liking The Rejected Realms to argue that affected Balder's approach to Lazarus's article - an allegation that must qualify as highly insulting given the seriousness which you are attaching to the article. My response highlighted that your characterisation of Balder's attitude towards TRR is wrong - rather it comes down a years-long history of TRR Times undermining Balder going back to 2014 - and secondly that our relations with TRR have zero impact on Balder's assessment of the issue.

Unsurprisingly, you are assuming the worst, jumping to unsupported conclusions and not approaching any of this in a rational manner.

[Escade]

Onder, or whoever chooses to speak on behalf of Balder, what is your stance on your ally LWU choosing to make a revolting OOC accusation of fascism against TRR for printing an article critical of the LWU in a independent and IC news organization? Is this something you support?

[Guy]

That conclusion was bolstered by the fact that mere minutes ago, Balder’s Queen has remarked to me:

Also maybe if your region wanted balder to do stuff for you, you guys shouldn't have screwed that up?

The bottom line is that Balder’s response to this is inadequate. Whether your motivations are related to NS or not, merely condemning the article while continuing to otherwise support those behind it is not good enough.

I’m addressing Balder here because you’ve posted in this thread, but my response would be the same to anyone who continues supporting those behind the article.

[McChimp]

That article was out of order.

It is also out of order to relentlessly pester Lazarus' allies about the report, using an OOC problem to pursue your IC agenda.

[Guy]

That article was out of order.

It is also out of order to relentlessly pester Lazarus' allies about the report, using an OOC problem to pursue your IC agenda.

This is an OOC issue, absolutely. No one should be dealing with the people behind the article in any capacity, including by supporting them in other capacities.

Would you have a treaty with a region headed by Govindia?

[Escade]

That article was out of order.

It is also out of order to relentlessly pester Lazarus' allies about the report, using an OOC problem to pursue your IC agenda.

The article was printed publicly, has there been an apology or retraction? This is the second time Lamb has attempted to use OOC to pursue your IC agenda. It's not okay and should be stopped ffs.

This is why I mistrust this whole swath of supporting players. If anyone on our side did this you would skewer them alive and make life hell for them. Here you find it pestering to simply ask for shitty OOC behavior to support IC agendas to fucking stop.

[McChimp]

The article was printed publicly, has there been an apology or retraction? This is the second time Lamb has attempted to use OOC to pursue his IC agenda. It's not okay and should be stopped ffs.

Fixed that for you.

[Escade]

The article was printed publicly, has there been an apology or retraction? This is the second time Lamb and the LWU to use OOC to pursue their IC agenda in Lazarus. It's not okay and should be stopped ffs.

This is why I mistrust this whole swath of supporting players. If anyone on our IC side did this you would skewer them alive and make life hell for them. Here you find it pestering to simply ask for shitty OOC behavior to support IC agendas to fucking stop.

Fixed that for you.

I also edited it to make my point clear.

[McChimp]

I also edited it to make my point clear.

I'm just going to deny your assertion that I would do what you're doing because it's baseless.

[Escade]

This is why I don't bother, because you can play semantics all you want and try to drown this out but this is the second time that Lamb\LWU have tried to use OOC attacks against region\players who criticize them IC. So guess what, if you silently stand back and support that and your main role in this is to try to engage in pointless back and forth then no need to engage with your likes.

[McChimp]

This is why I don't bother, because you can play semantics all you want and try to drown this out but this is the second time that Lamb\LWU have tried to use OOC attacks against region\players who criticize them IC. So guess what, if you silently stand back and support that and your main role in this is to try to engage in pointless back and forth then no need to engage with your likes.

"Semantics! Everything you say is semantics! I am right! You are wrong!"

[Solorni]

I'd like to point out that while Guy has criticized Balder's position in public, that he has not approached Balder to discuss the issue as far as I know. In addition to his first post; it comes across as more public spectacle than anything else. This is also not the first time TRR has posted private logs to further promote the popularity of their posts at the expense of their diplomatic efforts and at the expense of peoples respect of them.

It is all the more strange because there is sympathy for The Rejected Realms in Balder in relation to that article. When Onderkelkia himself is the one saying that Balder did not agree with the article; it is a clear demonstration that this feeling runs deep. Unfortunately Guy has chosen to seek attention for himself rather than utilize the goodwill we have for his region regarding the article. If The Rejected Realms or any other group would like to have a serious discussion regarding concerns they have, they are more than welcome to discuss it with our officials.

[Aumeltopia]

This is why I don't bother, because you can play semantics all you want and try to drown this out but this is the second time that Lamb\LWU have tried to use OOC attacks against region\players who criticize them IC. So guess what, if you silently stand back and support that and your main role in this is to try to engage in pointless back and forth then no need to engage with your likes.

"Semantics! Everything you say is semantics! I am right! You are wrong!"

Semantics is a real field of study with a real meaning and I resent your abuse of the term.

[Drop Your Pants]

It is all the more strange because there is sympathy for The Rejected Realms in Balder in relation to that article. When Onderkelkia himself is the one saying that Balder did not agree with the article; it is a clear demonstration that this feeling runs deep.

Where did Onder say that? Too lazy to look through his post history.

[Solorni]

It is all the more strange because there is sympathy for The Rejected Realms in Balder in relation to that article. When Onderkelkia himself is the one saying that Balder did not agree with the article; it is a clear demonstration that this feeling runs deep.

Where did Onder say that? Too lazy to look through his post history.

Balder disagrees with the article published on Liberate Kaiserreich.

viewtopic.php?p=33696996#p33696996

[Cormactopia Prime]

By the way, on what grounds has Balder decided to violate the Treaty of Regenesis by supporting a coup d'etat against the Dominion of Lazarus, which was the "legitimate," constitutional successor to the Undead Dominion of Lazarus? The LWU coup government isn't a legal successor to the Dominion.

Balder has assessed the Khanate of Lazarus to be the legitimate successor to the Undead Dominion. That assessment is entirely reasonable.

The argument that establishing the Khanate of Lazarus involved a coup against the immediate prior government is facetious in the extreme. The Khanate of Lazarus is a thematic and ideological rebranding actually performed by the previous government. The Dominion government no longer exists as a separate entity and its officials are now uniformly part of the Khanate, the new government set up by the Dominion.

Can you point me to the part of the Dominion's laws that allowed the Delegate to abolish all of the institutions of the Dominion government, take its off-site forum out of service, eject and ban natives without trial, etc.? You can't, of course, because it doesn't exist, because that wasn't permitted.

It's ludicrous to say that this is a legitimate successor of the Dominion. The Dominion had processes by which a legitimate successor state could have been established, and those processes weren't followed. Balder had a treaty with the Dominion of Lazarus, not with Aleister, Evil Wolf, and Funkadelia. That they overthrew the government they themselves proposed doesn't make it any less a coup, especially when you consider that they are ejecting and banning native participants of the Dominion whose only "crime" is dissenting against the overthrow of the Dominion.

All of that said, thank you for clarifying that laws and treaties mean nothing to Balder. I'm sure that will be comforting to Balder's remaining allies.

Balder disagrees with the article published on Liberate Kaiserreich.

But you don't disagree with it enough to stop piling in support of its publisher? Do you disagree with Aleister's prior OOC behavior enough to do that?

[Guy]

I'd like to point out that while Guy has criticized Balder's position in public, that he has not approached Balder to discuss the issue as far as I know. In addition to his first post; it comes across as more public spectacle than anything else. This is also not the first time TRR has posted private logs to further promote the popularity of their posts at the expense of their diplomatic efforts and at the expense of peoples respect of them.

It is all the more strange because there is sympathy for The Rejected Realms in Balder in relation to that article. When Onderkelkia himself is the one saying that Balder did not agree with the article; it is a clear demonstration that this feeling runs deep. Unfortunately Guy has chosen to seek attention for himself rather than utilize the goodwill we have for his region regarding the article. If The Rejected Realms or any other group would like to have a serious discussion regarding concerns they have, they are more than welcome to discuss it with our officials.

I'd be much happier if this matter was settled with Balder other than on the pages of the NS forum. Given the back-and-forth between Cormac and Balder officials in this thread, I jumped in with my thoughts - that Balder aren't taking this matter seriously enough. I'd only done so as a commentator, and not someone seeking to engage in diplomacy with Balder - because I'm not the person you ought to be speaking to on diplomatic matters. If you had gleaned any other intention from my posts, it was not there, and I apologise for any misunderstanding.

What I am, though, is quite seriously appalled by Lamb's article, and wish that Balder would do more than merely condemn it to show its strong disapproval and sympathy for TRR on this matter. Balder is far from alone in this boat, and I'd make the same comment at anyone else whose words (or, in some cases, not even words) on this matter haven't been backed by action.

[Aflana]

Can you point me to the part of the Dominion's laws that allowed the Delegate to abolish all of the institutions of the Dominion government, take its off-site forum out of service, eject and ban natives without trial, etc.? You can't, of course, because it doesn't exist, because that wasn't permitted.

It's ludicrous to say that this is a legitimate successor of the Dominion. The Dominion had processes by which a legitimate successor state could have been established, and those processes weren't followed. Balder had a treaty with the Dominion of Lazarus, not with Aleister, Evil Wolf, and Funkadelia. That they overthrew the government they themselves proposed doesn't make it any less a coup, especially when you consider that they are ejecting and banning native participants of the Dominion whose only "crime" is dissenting against the overthrow of the Dominion.

All of that said, thank you for clarifying that laws and treaties mean nothing to Balder. I'm sure that will be comforting to Balder's remaining allies.

As a citizen of Lazarus for months, and someone who even served in the high sepulchre during the undead dominion and was involved in the government during the dominion, I can agree with this. Aleister, and Funkadelia have ignored the rights of citizens under the Dominion consitution, and have broken the Dominion's laws several times. I, a citizen of the Dominion was banjected from Lazarus without trial for being a "suspected defender". This is outrageous, first I'm not even a defender, it's not even a law in the Dominion, and I was not given a trial. After all this, I still can't believe how some regions still support Aleister and friends.

[Vox Populi Reporter]

---

After reflecting on the wording of the piece, Vox Populi hereby retracts the article "Liberate KAISERREICH" published in our edition on the 19th March. We apologize for the implication that The Rejected Realms sympathized with Kaiserreich and Fascism as a result of their decision to vote against the resolution. While we still disagree with TRR's vote and Canton Empire's presence within TRR, we realize that we went too far in suggesting that these issues could mean that TRR was open to Fascism. We're aware this retraction is coming late for some, but we truly regret running the "Liberate KAISERREICH" article in that form. Lazarus recognizes that the fight against Fascism must involve mutual respect for parties across the gameplay divide and we will strive to uphold this standard in our editorial decisions going forward.

[Lord Dominator]

(Image)

---

After reflecting on the wording of the piece, Vox Populi hereby retracts the article "Liberate KAISERREICH" published in our edition on the 19th March. We apologize for the implication that The Rejected Realms sympathized with Kaiserreich and Fascism as a result of their decision to vote against the resolution. While we still disagree with TRR's vote and Canton Empire's presence within TRR, we realize that we went too far in suggesting that these issues could mean that TRR was open to Fascism. We're aware this retraction is coming late for some, but we truly regret running the "Liberate KAISERREICH" article in that form. Lazarus recognizes that the fight against Fascism must involve mutual respect for parties across the gameplay divide and we will strive to uphold this standard in our editorial decisions going forward.

As a Wolfist, I consider this to be a great decision, and I'm glad it has happened.

[Cormactopia Prime]

(Image)

---

After reflecting on the wording of the piece, Vox Populi hereby retracts the article "Liberate KAISERREICH" published in our edition on the 19th March. We apologize for the implication that The Rejected Realms sympathized with Kaiserreich and Fascism as a result of their decision to vote against the resolution. While we still disagree with TRR's vote and Canton Empire's presence within TRR, we realize that we went too far in suggesting that these issues could mean that TRR was open to Fascism. We're aware this retraction is coming late for some, but we truly regret running the "Liberate KAISERREICH" article in that form. Lazarus recognizes that the fight against Fascism must involve mutual respect for parties across the gameplay divide and we will strive to uphold this standard in our editorial decisions going forward.

As a Wolfist, I consider this to be a great decision, and I'm glad it has happened.

Some of LWU's pilers have consciences. This was bound to happen sooner or later as long as the issue wasn't allowed to be swept under the rug.

Out of curiosity, what is your rank in TBH, and how does the Council of the Hawks feel about their members participating in an LWU coup against a GCR? It was my understanding that TBH didn't meddle in GCRs. That has always been Souls' excuse for not lifting a finger to help during situations in Osiris, for example. If TBH's members are going to be given free rein to participate in this stuff, some GCRs should probably reevaluate working with TBH.