NationStates

No, I haven't created one. I'm sure you'll all be relieved to hear that.

Rather, this thread is to discuss the need for an off-site NSGP forum, given the extensive over-moderation of the Gameplay forum lately. Please note that this thread is not intended to discuss whether over-moderation has taken place, but rather is to discuss the feasibility of an off-site alternative, whether it would be used, and how we can address some issues that would immediately arise. Some issues to consider:

• Is an off-site NSGP forum even feasible? What are the drawbacks and how might we compensate for them so we can move forward?
• Would you, or in the case of regional and organizational leadership, also your regions/orgs, use an off-site NSGP forum?
• Who should be the root administrator for such a forum? I am asking for specific people and detailed reasoning.
• How should other administrators and moderators of such a forum be selected?

This should get the ball rolling on a discussion that I think many of us feel needs to be had, given recent trends in moderation of Gameplay.

Well, one drawback is that no matter who you choose as a root admin you're going to have to deal with a cacophony of people decrying bias and the other side going "Oh what, just because he's [x] that means he won't be reasonable?"

I like the idea, Cormac. You know I really like it because I commented on this forum using my favorite nation, which this nation is quite young. I would usually comment using Marilyn Manson Freaks or some others, but I really love this idea!

Sovreignry wrote:Well, one drawback is that no matter who you choose as a root admin you're going to have to deal with a cacophony of people decrying bias and the other side going "Oh what, just because he's [x] that means he won't be reasonable?"

Yes, this is by far the biggest drawback. I would like to try to find someone who is neutralish and has the respect of all sides. Surely there must be someone like that, right? One name that springs to mind for me is Astarial, though I have no idea if she would do it. Anyone else have suggestions?

My thinking is there will always be a crowd who won't join it for whatever reason no matter who's running it. It will also not be as popular as the NSGP forums, as those will always be the gathering place for the news and drama, it seems. Could be wrong, though.

Cormactopia Prime wrote:

Sovreignry wrote:Well, one drawback is that no matter who you choose as a root admin you're going to have to deal with a cacophony of people decrying bias and the other side going "Oh what, just because he's [x] that means he won't be reasonable?"

Yes, this is by far the biggest drawback. I would like to try to find someone who is neutralish and has the respect of all sides. Surely there must be someone like that, right? One name that springs to mind for me is Astarial, though I have no idea if she would do it. Anyone else have suggestions?

I could do it.

I'd join it regardless of who runs it!

If you have to use an offsite forum because of moderation concerns, it might be a sign that community behavior needs to change.

Just a thought.

The NGSP Discord server is hella toxic, filled with meaner comments than can ever be said here. Why on earth would the community want to move to a less-moderated venue? An NSGP forum that's not as moderated as this one will quickly devolve into something extremely toxic, and would be a deep echo chamber, with people feeding off of each other's behavior.

The site rules would limit your ability to advertise such a thing on-site. We don't mind if a region or a GP group uses offsite forums in conjunction with NS, but attempting to replace an NS forum with an off-site one is going to run into problems.

USS Monitor wrote:The site rules would limit your ability to advertise such a thing on-site. We don't mind if a region or a GP group uses offsite forums in conjunction with NS, but attempting to replace an NS forum with an off-site one is going to run into problems.

Eh, it sounds like it wouldn't really be any different than the various off-site venues that GP groups already use. The main problem is when it's an offiste loaded chock-full of stuff that breaks our rules/is inappropriate/etc, which doesn't sound like that'd be the case here.

I could see having a NSGP forum as a good thing, but the reasoning I'm seeing here makes me uncomfortable.

I would be for such a forum just so long as it is moderated correctly. I would be for such a forum if we could be absolutely assured our IP addresses won't be distributed to regions the root is buddy-buddy with. But I don't think these things will happen from this discussion.

First, the whole argument for this essentially boils down to "I don't like being moderated, so let's go somewhere where we don't have to deal with moderation". Second, you'd be hard-pressed to find someone to be the root who won't immediately be accused of bias in moderation, rules, forum setup, etc. regardless of the validity of those accusations.

Yes. It would be nice to have more than just this one board on the NS forums for the gameplay community to do their thing. If you can find a way to do that while keeping people assured of the moderation behind it, I'm all in. But so far as I can tell, the only way that could happen would be if this new forum was kept and maintained by NS staff - which sounds like something neither those who would support the new forum, or the mods, would be in favor of.

Galiantus IV wrote:I would be for such a forum if we could be absolutely assured our IP addresses won't be distributed to regions the root is buddy-buddy with.

This is probably going to be used as blackmail within the week, making the forum a banned link, and getting all forum admins DEATed if not DOS. The best alternative would probably be the NSGP Discord server, but that is far from a happy medium.

Sounds like a place used solely for treating people worse then we do here.

Drasnia wrote:If you have to use an offsite forum because of moderation concerns, it might be a sign that community behavior needs to change.

This is not a thread for discussion of whether over-moderation is occurring. You can start a new thread for that.

Glen-Rhodes wrote:The NGSP Discord server is hella toxic, filled with meaner comments than can ever be said here. Why on earth would the community want to move to a less-moderated venue? An NSGP forum that's not as moderated as this one will quickly devolve into something extremely toxic, and would be a deep echo chamber, with people feeding off of each other's behavior.

The owner of that server has opted to engage in very little moderation. The goal of an off-site NSGP forum would be to have more clear rules that are tailored to gameplay culture since we understand gameplay culture, as well as more consistent application of those rules. The goal of an off-site alternative would not be to have no rules at all, which I agree with you would become extremely toxic extremely quickly.

There is a serious risk of IP-farming, to say the least, and also impersonation - there's nothing to stop someone else from naming their account after someone's main, for example. I mean, I've been a diplomat to regions all over the place, my IP addresses are easily located if someone thought someone else was me, so there's not much danger there, but for some people...

The idea sounds nice, but... man, I can't even imagine the logistics of it working. We'd need someone we all agreed was neutral to run it, and we can't even agree if a given mod is really neutral.

Kylia Quilor wrote:There is a serious risk of IP-farming, to say the least, and also impersonation - there's nothing to stop someone else from naming their account after someone's main, for example. I mean, I've been a diplomat to regions all over the place, my IP addresses are easily located if someone thought someone else was me, so there's not much danger there, but for some people...

The idea sounds nice, but... man, I can't even imagine the logistics of it working. We'd need someone we all agreed was neutral to run it, and we can't even agree if a given mod is really neutral.

I'm not sure how much worse it has to get in the Gameplay forum before we decide the same arguments that have been used over and over again against an off-site alternative aren't insurmountable, but at the rate Moderation is going, I guess we'll find out soon how much worse it has to get.

Against, for the aforementioned privacy and bias arguments, as well as the potential for elitism between those that join and those that stay on the NS forums.

TBH I think it will turn into something toxic very quickly. An offsite forum could certainly be tailored to the NSGP community, which in the end means it's going to get salty. The NSGP community will just have to adapt to the new perspective of the moderators in my opinion. Moving off site just sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

To be quite frank, I just think this this doesn't make logistical sense, especially with finding someone everyone agrees on admin wise. I also don't think that it would end well, in the end. I do understand your point on over-moderation Cormac, and to a sense I agree. However, I do feel that what the mods are doing will eventually be a good thing, but who knows when that would be. In the end, I think that for the moment we will have to grin & get over it for now, as unpopular as that is with myself & others.

Speaking of which, who runs the NS reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/NationStates/ ?

Solorni wrote:Speaking of which, who runs the NS reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/NationStates/ ?

No clue. If any of the mods/admins started it, we'd've talked about it in the sekrit lair first.

Kylia Quilor wrote:There is a serious risk of IP-farming, to say the least, and also impersonation - there's nothing to stop someone else from naming their account after someone's main, for example. I mean, I've been a diplomat to regions all over the place, my IP addresses are easily located if someone thought someone else was me, so there's not much danger there, but for some people...

The idea sounds nice, but... man, I can't even imagine the logistics of it working. We'd need someone we all agreed was neutral to run it, and we can't even agree if a given mod is really neutral.

If there was someone you could all agree on, they'd probably be a pretty cool person. You could probably nominate them as an NS mod and have them take on a leadership role on-site.

I dislike the whole idea. Too often we see dogpiles on one player on this forum that is diligently monitored. How would an off-site forum deal with that?
It seems like you are asking for an environment that will turn toxic and spill over on to this forum unless the same moderating rules are applied.
The mindset of some of the players is the problem, not the moderation of it.

USS Monitor wrote:

Kylia Quilor wrote:There is a serious risk of IP-farming, to say the least, and also impersonation - there's nothing to stop someone else from naming their account after someone's main, for example. I mean, I've been a diplomat to regions all over the place, my IP addresses are easily located if someone thought someone else was me, so there's not much danger there, but for some people...

The idea sounds nice, but... man, I can't even imagine the logistics of it working. We'd need someone we all agreed was neutral to run it, and we can't even agree if a given mod is really neutral.

If there was someone you could all agree on, they'd probably be a pretty cool person. You could probably nominate them as an NS mod and have them take on a leadership role on-site.

The idea behind this is that Moderation is over moderating this subforum, so your idea is more Moderation?