The Lazarene Guardian - Sinking Ship Not Sinking, Says Funk

[Kylia Quilor]

Can't you jump for the end rather than the start of the region updating? Doesn't it just put you on the end of the update list? I don't know the answer to this, but I vaguely thought you could, just the influence gain of a 100+ endo delegate would mean attrition runs are pointless.

Attrition can work in a few cases - that's more or less what brought down Milograd and the Gatesville Coup (though that had the added benefit of the UIAF endos internally) but the key is that attrition combined with someone high enough endo inside the region...

Unless something changed since 2014? Did the expiring influence thing kill the value of attrition on GCRs?

[Swarshengaggen]

But as someone who does not support the "resistance," it's encouraging to me that they have obviously not been preparing for sleeper operations, which means they are nowhere near accomplishing their goals in Lazarus despite Funkadelia's endorsement count dropping.

If I wanted to have a successful liberation attempt, I wouldn't even talk about such a thing in any occasion that could allow for the knowledge of such to be known. Of course you don't know.

Quite frankly, Funk's Floundering Fanatical Failing Facetiousness of a government is going down. Problem is, the Resistance sure needs to be ready for a large scale liberation.

[Cormactopia Prime]

I'm not saying it's completely impossible; I'm saying it's extremely improbable. Triggering for Feeders and Sinkers is a nightmare.

Triggering for a liberation that's taking place immediately after a feeder or sinker is a pain in the ass. Not the feeder or sinker themselves necessarily.

Were you really a UDL Lieutenant? Jesus. I ought to have trained you better...

How many Feeders and Sinkers have you couped or liberated, Unibot?

I'm pretty sure I have a better grasp of how the mechanics of Feeder and Sinker coups work than you do.

[Consular]

Can't you jump for the end rather than the start of the region updating? Doesn't it just put you on the end of the update list? I don't know the answer to this, but I vaguely thought you could, just the influence gain of a 100+ endo delegate would mean attrition runs are pointless.

I thought a region compiled a list at the start of its update and wouldn't add to it from then?

[Unibot III]

Triggering for a liberation that's taking place immediately after a feeder or sinker is a pain in the ass. Not the feeder or sinker themselves necessarily.

Were you really a UDL Lieutenant? Jesus. I ought to have trained you better...

How many Feeders and Sinkers have you couped or liberated, Unibot?

I'm pretty sure I have a better grasp of how the mechanics of Feeder and Sinker coups work than you do.

A region is a region. I'm not saying more than that. You're clearly out to lunch here, so I'm not about to share trade secrets, except to gloat that you don't have even the foggiest clue what you're talking about.

You should have paid more attention as a UDL Lt. >_<

[Coutuza]

This will not do all that much to dissuade the heavy public disapproval of government activities (I mean they literally overthrew a democratic government and established a dictatorship!), if anything it may help to inflame disapproval as it alienates those who supported said official

[Cormactopia Prime]

How many Feeders and Sinkers have you couped or liberated, Unibot?

I'm pretty sure I have a better grasp of how the mechanics of Feeder and Sinker coups work than you do.

A region is a region. I'm not saying more than that. You're clearly out to lunch here, so I'm not about to share trade secrets, except to gloat that you don't have even the foggiest clue what you're talking about.

You should have paid more attention as a UDL Lt. >_<

Given how completely ineffective the UDL was in liberating any Feeder or Sinker during every coup it encountered, I am 100% certain I should not have been paying more attention to UDL counter-coup tactics. The UDL was so incompetent that I had to literally expel the UDL from the resistance against Douria's coup in Osiris in 2013, just to ensure that we could get something done instead of being distracted by the UDL's antics.

I have been involved in multiple Feeder and Sinker coups, on both sides. Update tactics are extremely unlikely to get the job done. I'll ask you again: How many Feeders or Sinkers have you couped or liberated? "A region is a region" is an absurd statement, demonstrating that you have no idea what you're talking about. Liberating a Feeder or Sinker is much more complicated than liberating a founderless user-created region.

[Unibot III]

A region is a region. I'm not saying more than that. You're clearly out to lunch here, so I'm not about to share trade secrets, except to gloat that you don't have even the foggiest clue what you're talking about.

You should have paid more attention as a UDL Lt. >_<

Given how completely ineffective the UDL was in liberating any Feeder or Sinker during every coup it encountered, I am 100% certain I should not have been paying more attention to UDL counter-coup tactics. The UDL was so incompetent that I had to literally expel the UDL from the resistance against Douria's coup in Osiris in 2013, just to ensure that we could get something done instead of being distracted by the UDL's antics.

I have been involved in multiple Feeder and Sinker coups, on both sides. Update tactics are extremely unlikely to get the job done. I'll ask you again: How many Feeders or Sinkers have you couped or liberated? "A region is a region" is an absurd statement, demonstrating that you have no idea what you're talking about. Liberating a Feeder or Sinker is much more complicated than liberating a founderless user-created region.

("Never interfere with an enemy while he’s in the process of destroying himself.")

"A region is a region" would make sense to anyone who understands how update works.

You're missing a key component of Update 101 - and now you're politicizing your ignorance. Unbelievable. I wasn't even an active UDLer during Douria's coup. I co-invented triggering with Spartz, I worked closely with two chaps who are presently admins on interpreting the update. I know how this bloody update works (generally speaking). And I'm telling you, you've got it all wrong.

Go back and read a military guide. Ffffff. Any one. Feel free to read the one I wrote (because clearly you didn't read it when you were an officer.)

[Jakker]

("Never interfere with an enemy while he’s in the process of destroying himself.")

"A region is a region" would make sense to anyone who understands how update works.

You're missing a key component of Update 101 - and now you're politicizing your ignorance. Unbelievable. I wasn't even an active UDLer during Douria's coup. I co-invented triggering with Spartz, I worked closely with two chaps who are presently admins on interpreting the update. I know how this bloody update works (generally speaking). And I'm telling you, you've got it all wrong.

Go back and read a military guide. Ffffff. Any one. Feel free to read the one I wrote (because clearly you didn't read it when you were an officer.)

You can puff up your abilities all you want, Uni. Triggering was never your or UDL's strong suit. In fact, you all really sucked at it.

[Cormactopia Prime]

("Never interfere with an enemy while he’s in the process of destroying himself.")

"A region is a region" would make sense to anyone who understands how update works.

You're missing a key component of Update 101 - and now you're politicizing your ignorance. Unbelievable. I wasn't even an active UDLer during Douria's coup. I co-invented triggering with Spartz, I worked closely with two chaps who are presently admins on interpreting the update. I know how this bloody update works (generally speaking). And I'm telling you, you've got it all wrong.

Go back and read a military guide. Ffffff. Any one. Feel free to read the one I wrote (because clearly you didn't read it when you were an officer.)

You can puff up your abilities all you want, Uni. Triggering was never your or UDL's strong suit. In fact, you all really sucked at it.

I'm fondly remembering when the UDL triggered Mad Jack's return to Osiris after the Empire's December 2012 coup, causing him to miss update and giving Empire another update in the Delegacy, even though Empire had ended their coup and were letting him return without opposition. This was of course the day after the UDL endorsed Neo Kervoskia, unwittingly assisting Empire in their coup in the first place.

Yeah, it's a real shame I didn't pay more attention to my UDL training.

[Unibot III]

You can puff up your abilities all you want, Uni.

Infinitely so, in fact, but...

It really doesn't matter if it was or wasn't my strong suit (it wasn't - never, ever liked triggering), the point I'm making is too elementary to require skill. It's probably taught in 'defender kindergarten' these days...

I'm fondly remembering when the UDL triggered Mad Jack's return to Osiris after the Empire's December 2012 coup,

I was on holidays for that too, actually.

[Cormactopia Prime]

You can puff up your abilities all you want, Uni.

Infinitely so, in fact, but...

It really doesn't matter if it was or wasn't my strong suit (it wasn't - never, ever liked triggering), the point I'm making is too elementary to require skill. It's probably taught in 'defender kindergarten' these days...

I know how to trigger, Unibot. I've known how to trigger since 2012. I'm not saying you can't trigger for a Feeder or Sinker, I'm saying that it's so difficult to do so in such a way that you don't move in too early or too late that it makes an update operation -- especially with the number of people required for such a liberation -- extremely difficult to pull off, to the point that it is exceedingly unlikely to work. That's why most Feeder and Sinker coups are fought using sleepers, not update forces. That was how Milograd's coup of the South Pacific was fought in 2013, how Douria's coup of Osiris was fought in July 2013, how the short-lived resistance fought the OFO coup in December 2013, how Lazarenes fought the NLO coup in 2015, how TSP fought Hileville's coup in 2016, and how the resistance fought the second OFO coup in April 2016.

If update operations are likely to work, can you explain why no one ever uses update operations to fight coups? It's not rocket science. They don't use update operations to fight coups because update operations are so unlikely to work that they might as well just give up if that's their strategy.

I'm fondly remembering when the UDL triggered Mad Jack's return to Osiris after the Empire's December 2012 coup,

I was on holidays for that too, actually.

I don't think anyone is contesting that the UDL was far less competent whenever you were away, though that is as much an indictment of your leadership as anything else. It shouldn't have been so incompetent whenever you were away, but you elevated people to leadership based on how thoroughly they had proven themselves as your sycophants and/or ideological fellow travelers rather than how skilled they were. The Lieutenant who knew not to endorse Neo Kervoskia -- namely, me -- was not the Lieutenant in charge, and thus the UDL unwittingly assisted a coup.

[The Republic of Llamas]

Infinitely so, in fact, but...

It really doesn't matter if it was or wasn't my strong suit (it wasn't - never, ever liked triggering), the point I'm making is too elementary to require skill. It's probably taught in 'defender kindergarten' these days...

I know how to trigger, Unibot. I've known how to trigger since 2012.

It sounds like someone's getting...

<.< Triggered

[Cormactopia Prime]

I should note that it's not triggering, per se, that is difficult about Feeders and Sinkers, you trigger for them like any other region. The difficult part is getting the timing right and not moving into the Feeder or Sinker too early or too late; too early and you're ejected and banned because of how long it takes a Feeder or Sinker to update, too late and you're... too late. That's the difficulty. It's not anything to do with the mechanics of setting the trigger, which is the same with any region, it's to do with the timing of moving in -- which is a problem unique to Feeders and Sinkers.

I already made this point once, but it seems to have been missed by some who think I mean that the actual mechanics of triggering is different for Feeders and Sinkers. So I just wanted to highlight that I'm not saying that. In any region, you have to move in before it begins updating, but with a Feeder or Sinker your only chance is to move with an extremely tight trigger because you will be facing a several minute update. And even then you are unlikely to be successful because there is too much time to be ejected and banned. It just isn't a viable tactic, which is why no one uses it. Even the UDL didn't.

[Unibot III]

I should note that it's not triggering, per se, that is difficult about Feeders and Sinkers, you trigger for them like any other region. The difficult part is getting the timing right and not moving into the Feeder or Sinker too early or too late; too early and you're ejected and banned because of how long it takes a Feeder or Sinker to update, too late and you're... too late. That's the difficulty. It's not anything to do with the mechanics of setting the trigger, which is the same with any region, it's to do with the timing of moving in -- which is a problem unique to Feeders and Sinkers.

I already made this point once, but it seems to have been missed by some who think I mean that the actual mechanics of triggering is different for Feeders and Sinkers. So I just wanted to highlight that I'm not saying that.

You're correct that the larger the region, the more time it takes to update. You're missing something major and elementary though...

Also: liberations aren't use for GCRs because the endorsement gaps are typically too large to support a conventional liberation. That won't be the case in Lazarus soon.

[Cormactopia Prime]

I should note that it's not triggering, per se, that is difficult about Feeders and Sinkers, you trigger for them like any other region. The difficult part is getting the timing right and not moving into the Feeder or Sinker too early or too late; too early and you're ejected and banned because of how long it takes a Feeder or Sinker to update, too late and you're... too late. That's the difficulty. It's not anything to do with the mechanics of setting the trigger, which is the same with any region, it's to do with the timing of moving in -- which is a problem unique to Feeders and Sinkers.

I already made this point once, but it seems to have been missed by some who think I mean that the actual mechanics of triggering is different for Feeders and Sinkers. So I just wanted to highlight that I'm not saying that.

You're correct that the larger the region, the more time it takes to update. You're missing something major and elementary though...

Also: liberations aren't use for GCRs because the endorsement gaps are typically too large to support a conventional liberation. That won't be the case in Lazarus soon.

I don't think I'm missing anything major and elementary, I think you're just wrong. If you're not going to say what this major and elementary thing is, when I've checked with numerous R/Ders just to make sure I'm not thinking wrong here, we're pretty much at an impasse.

[Unibot III]

You're correct that the larger the region, the more time it takes to update. You're missing something major and elementary though...

Also: liberations aren't use for GCRs because the endorsement gaps are typically too large to support a conventional liberation. That won't be the case in Lazarus soon.

I don't think I'm missing anything major and elementary, I think you're just wrong. If you're not going to say what this major and elementary thing is, when I've checked with numerous R/Ders just to make sure I'm not thinking wrong here, we're pretty much at an impasse.

*facepalms* Multiple R/Ders? Amateurs! Christ. Just wait and see, then.

[Kylia Quilor]

I don't think I'm missing anything major and elementary, I think you're just wrong. If you're not going to say what this major and elementary thing is, when I've checked with numerous R/Ders just to make sure I'm not thinking wrong here, we're pretty much at an impasse.

*facepalms* Multiple R/Ders? Amateurs! Christ. Just wait and see, then.

You've been out of the game for how long now, Unibot?

[Unibot III]

You've been out of the game for how long now, Unibot?

What's interesting is that this nugget of wisdom was actually forgotten in R/D before. When I became a defender, nobody active really knew about it. Our understanding of update that we were teaching newbies was completely wrong. There was kind of a "dark age" after ADN/DSA declined. Ballotonia, Eluvatar, Goobergunchia, Spartz and a few others revived a far better understanding of how update worked. I remember a lot of fun late night chats musing about lots of stuff - like the possibility of update order being seeded by a key, trying to figure out how to engineer a later updating region - that sort of stuff.

It's still a bit sad to see some of that knowledge has been lost again along the way, though.

[Kylia Quilor]

You've been out of the game for how long now, Unibot?

What's interesting is that this nugget of wisdom was actually forgotten in R/D before. When I became a defender, nobody active really knew about it. Our understanding of update that we were teaching newbies was completely wrong. There was kind of a "dark age" after ADN/DSA declined. Ballotonia, Eluvatar, Goobergunchia, Spartz and a few others revived a far better understanding of how update worked. I remember a lot of fun late night chats musing about lots of stuff - like the possibility of update order being seeded by a key, trying to figure out how to engineer a later updating region - that sort of stuff.

It's still a bit sad to see some of that knowledge has been lost again along the way, though.

Cormac didn't lose anything.

[Unibot III]

What's interesting is that this nugget of wisdom was actually forgotten in R/D before. When I became a defender, nobody active really knew about it. Our understanding of update that we were teaching newbies was completely wrong. There was kind of a "dark age" after ADN/DSA declined. Ballotonia, Eluvatar, Goobergunchia, Spartz and a few others revived a far better understanding of how update worked. I remember a lot of fun late night chats musing about lots of stuff - like the possibility of update order being seeded by a key, trying to figure out how to engineer a later updating region - that sort of stuff.

It's still a bit sad to see some of that knowledge has been lost again along the way, though.

Cormac didn't lose anything.

Then he's deliberately lying. Or you both need to refresh yourselves on basic game mechanics.

(Jakker on the other hand didn't say I was wrong, he just told me I sucked. Love you too, Jakker. <3)