Defender Expo 2017

[Shizensky]

[That's fair, though I would question why, with nine versions significant enough to mention in the changelog, none of those were ready to take a few minutes to post. The topic of defending tools seeming, again from my outside perspective, to be moving to being less open does however apply beyond just breeze++.

It just wasn't ready. It only worked on Rift until very recently. CTRL, ALT, and SHIFT were all bound to an action, but those are also OS and browser shortcut keys, so changes needed to be made as to avoid changing expected default behaviors. You can actually see that in the key map you posted.

[Land filled with People]

Personally, I see that greatly hurting the game and R/D in particular, but I don't know if there's any way to change that.

I thought that the way to change is the obvious part – stop the necessity of speed. As the first-movers, that is on you as raiders to change.

The best argument I can see for that has, if I read people right, already been made - the fun in defending is beating raiders, so you don't care if that's reduced to running your fingers along a line of keys to do all the associated actions, because that wasn't the fun part.

Is the fun in beating, or the fun in actually having a chance to play the game? They are very distinct, but you’ve conflated them. When a group of players try their hardest to keep you out of a game, wouldn’t it be fun to come back and say ‘ha, we’re still here’, regardless of if you then win or not?

I don't know if I really am? That's an entirely fair point. I do think you've made some minor exaggerations or omissions (for example, many raiders have to screens after seeing go to move - not everyone has the screen space to split or dual screen things and see the chat at the same time as the region, while defenders can theoretically chase for themselves without looking for any orders.

If there’s only one group being active, and nothing pre-planned sure. That’s not always the case.

Deliberately or not you don't seem to grasp the large difference between tagging and chasing. You should take Drake up on his offer before posting again. If you’re unwilling to get first hand appreciation, is it really worth anyone’s time to continue here?

[Escade]

The North Pacific - Regional Happenings:
50 minutes ago: The United Kingdom of Escade Got That Feeling departed this region for Dangerous.
52 minutes ago: The United Kingdom of Escade Got That Feeling was founded.
56 minutes ago: The Most Serene Republic of Escade Said Everybody Gets High departed this region for Cold Cold Water.
58 minutes ago: The Most Serene Republic of Escade Said Everybody Gets High was founded.

For some reason, I feel like the above foundings (and subsequent region creations) have something to do with DefCon... Have I somehow intercepted two new regions set to be used for a challenge?

Yes, challenge regions ftw!

And I also encourage anyone who is interested in learning what exactly, for example, chasing is like in action - to join us in the chasing and other challenges! Because the challenges occur outside of update times, you don't need a WA and can test out the particular skill set needed to engage in a fun aspect of gameplay.

On the technical issue being discussed, I frankly don't know much about programming or APIs. However I can speak to enjoyment of a game and gameplay. In 2013 I tried R\D and felt it was a bit of an isolated activity. Now with Discord, VC, and the freedom of WA mobility I enjoy D quite a lot and feel like there are multiple aspects that make it enjoyable:

1. It's not easy and chasing especially is quite challenging
2. There's a team aspect to it and it feels really good when you succeed as a team
3. The company is funny, lovely, silly, and just fun to hang out with
4. I learn things from the people all the time (like how to make puns )
5. There's some quality or aspect to being a defender that I've loved conceptually since day one and love in practice now:

OH YEAH SO yes, if you want to know what it feels like come do a challenge or two with us

[Red Dusk]

4. I learn things from the people all the time (like how to make puns )

Dammit Roavin!

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Many situations are greater towards raiders succeeding...but that's because we act with the initiate, and responsive will always lag behind initiative.

Yes, that's the fundamental imbalance in the game that needs to be addressed. And the way to address that is to give defenders tools that don't also help raiders. In most games, designers try to counter-balance first turn advantage.

Any comment on the rest of that thought?

---

And Shiz posts! Thanks for the length and thorough reply! Now let's dig into this

>>Predator

While I understand what you're saying, I do think too much is being read into a word there - it's a useful colloquialism to sum up "the effects of the tools race on raiding, the strict warnings given to raiding by admin afterwards, and the general sentiment from staff that R/D should be de-tooled." It's also worth noting that we're still perfectly open to using scripts in many cases - we just have a process to vet them completely, are generally staying very much on the side of "better safe than sorry" given the very clear threats to the future of raiding made, and are also attempting to respect the expressed wishes of senior staff members to reduce tool use in R/D.

>>second quote

So you're basically saying the skill then, on the defending side, is in knowing what to do, because you still have a lot more options, and they're all generally self-driven and responsive, so reducing the time spent *executing* those actions is...just that? All solid points. Hopefully by the time you read this, you'll also have caught up on some later comments along those lines in this thread. I'd love to hear your thoughts on my note about the usefulness of chasing in general compared to or perhaps in cooperation with the currently-mostly-dead practice of detagging.

>>triggers

I would argue that one. Sure, setting a base trigger off a sheet by counting back x nations is not hard. At least in TBH, anyone doing only that is in desperate need of more training. Our practice, and our accuracy, revolves almost entirely on setting those base triggers several seconds wider than desired, and remaining responsive throughout update to various things including defender numbers vs out numbers, shifts in variance, and so on and so forth. That is to say, we'll start out with, let's say, base+4s. That means go is not called until 4 seconds after the trigger goes off. This allows adaptability: No one chasing/vastly outnumber those chasing? Back off a bit, no need to cut so close. Numbers are really close? Tighten a bit, we need to cut closer. Update is speeding up, and what should be a 5s trigger is creeping closer to 3-4s in the past couple hits? Widen a bit. Update slowed down again, and all of a sudden that new 5s mark is closer to 7-8? Wait another second or two. So on, so forth. Our best triggers are constantly looking at their spacing as update goes on to adjust within the window that a wide trigger allows as necessary. The only time go should actually be being called as soon as the trigger goes off is when update is running *really* fast and/or it was not set wide enough, and the trigger has had to back off as far as they possibly can.

I can't speak for other orgs on this one, but in the current state of update, this has been what we have found necessary to get the times we, and especially money, is known for. It takes a lot of attention, a lot of on-the-fly adjustment, and a bit of feel. It's how I've triggered for years, though others are better at it now than I ever was, and we've been putting a lot of work recently into training and practice of this skillset among our triggers, because just setting a trigger off a sheet value and moving when it goes off does *not* give the adaptability and accuracy that is needed to be the best.

>>a bunch of links in my quote

He didn't say for him, he made a general statement

I think that's all that really needs to be said in response to that bit, as the rest of it better addressed when we get to what you kept talking about getting at later xD

>>more quotes

So, yes then, there is a difference of opinion within defending? I mean, that wasn't unexpected, I'm just saying that becuase that was part of my question-questions at the end. You make it sound like he's fairly unique in that view though? I'd be interested to hear more about how that dynamic plays out .

>>open source

Glad to hear you still support that. I hope you continue to push for that As I noted (again, a bit later on in stuff that you may not have had read at that point) - that's not necessarily the most accessible/public place, and has a very low-key "backroom" feel still without an NS thread, but it's something at least. Vinny talks about that himself a bit above, so I'll let you read what I said there.

...The same can't be said for several other tools I've heard rumor/specific mention of, though.

>>in short

Wasn't necessarily saying that it was a bad thing, honestly just summing up my block before entering the questions That said, I would refer back to Reppy's Quote, the easiest to find and most concise example of senior staff's expressed desire to reduce script use in R/D. You're 100% right that between things provided and things allowed, the site *technically* supports tools ... but, on the other hand, we've got senior staff asking how the value of tools to R/D can be forcibly reduced/how they can reduce script use in R/D. I mentioned this earlier in the context of part of why we avoid them (generally, the last thing we want to be doing when admin has threatened the very existence of our method of play is pushing the limits of something they've expressed an active desire to tone down), and that, in my opinion, is why one might view increasing tool use as a bad thing - if nothing else, because it may drive further admin changes to the R/D scene, which we all know tend to have decent odds of making everyone unhappy to some degree. If you want to stretch things a bit more, you can look at it along that lines that, if heavy tool use becomes the norm again, you're likely to eventually see more raiders creating more tools - I've mentioned since my initial posts as parts of other conversations that we certainly could be tooling up in several places, including but not limited to streamlining banjections and faster M+E of our own...which then, again, increases the likelihood that an admin unhappy with tool use forces change against it. In that sense, I personally view an R/D scene where tools are commonplace as not desirable. I also imagine that our side mechanizing everything possible would damage the fragile near-balance we've got at present back in our favor...based on the potential tools that come to mind, moreso in the operations arena than the tag one.

So I suppose I both agree and disagree with what you're saying there, I suppose.

>>Q1

So you think tool use is going to continue to increase?

>>Q2

I 100% agree there. That's also a sentiment you'll find in TBH - we like people to know *why* they're doing things in triggering, *what* the sheet is doing to make their lives easier, and so forth - the idea being that, if for whatever reason the tool disappeared tomorrow, they'd be just as competent...things would just take longer. Personally, I think this is absolutely vital, especially given the high turnover rate of NS...it's all too possible for knowledge and skill, especially very detailed knowledge and skill, to disappear or fall out of common use. Then what happens when the tools stops being maintained, and something eventually breaks? We can write stuff down on forums, but hell knows that's not as permanent or accessible as we'd like, and is also a pain in the ass to create in the first place... and even then it's possible for what one group considers a given - perhaps "download the dumps" - is gibberish to the reader with absolutely 0 knowledge. I'm fully behind only suggesting folks use a tool after they can competently perform the associated base action. You shouldn't even be pointed towards the NS++ puppet creator until you know what a puppet is and why we need them, and the same scales up.

>>Q3

It's a fair point. We draw our lines of what "busywork" is differently, but I think the sentiment is the same. I focused on removing time consumption outside of update, and making update itself just what our folks can do, and for you it's about making mouse speed a less essential part to allow folks to focus on the mental/thought-requiring part.

>>Q4

I'll start out by saying that that is a very interesting perspective I can't say I'd much considered before. Thank you for sharing, and I'd like to say that even if nothing else was said as part of this conversation, I'd be happy to see that having come out of it. Well said, and I don't have much else to give that besides a solid nod.

>>extra comment in second post

Yeah, that's fair, though as I noted both in the bit you quoted and above in this post - that's a point made beyond Breeze specifically, and if anything, breeze is only the example because it is the most open current defender tool I know of

<<closing comment

A bit off topic, but - hey Shiz, ever wonder what life would have been like if I'd tried you first coming out of TEK rather than Venico? I was on quite a 50/50 knife edge there, and really torn over heading to BoM instead of RIA. It's a fun "what if" to look at on a slow day, given where the raider side of that choice ended up taking me

---

>>LFWP

Fair distinction, though I think you assumed the worst of where I'd fall on that. What you said is in line with what I meant - the fun in the potential to beat.

[Shizensky]

A bit off topic, but - hey Shiz, ever wonder what life would have been like if I'd tried you first coming out of TEK rather than Venico? I was on quite a 50/50 knife edge there, and really torn over heading to BoM instead of RIA. It's a fun "what if" to look at on a slow day, given where the raider side of that choice ended up taking me .

I get the feeling you would have ended up in charge one way or another. Considering my strange habit of needing to give my nation away every x years, that makes it a really interesting "what if."

[Escade]

Really long posts, and some nostalgia

Hey,

Come try out a chasing challenge tomorrow with us, you can see what it's like (invite open to anyone across time and space and like realities who is curious or nostalgic or otherwise a person (which hopefully covers all the people who are salty and full of salt and salted caramel popcorn as well as those made up of other substances and elements and particles and atoms and nuclei and DNA and unDNA and cotton puffs)

[Yun]

I just think there are better places to discuss this stuff.

I thought this was a pretty appropriate place - I also asked first, and DYP at least said fire away. If the hosts would prefer that this get it's own thread instead of continuing to bump their event thread and draw in extra readers, I'd be happy to oblige, but they have so far said no such thing.

Please start a new thread or get it off this one. We get that you're fascinated by NSBreeze++, but this topic is about the Defender Expo/Activities, not "Let's talk about Scripts."

Sincerely,
A DefenderExpo2017 Host
Queen-Minister of the SPSF

[The Sygian]

Hey,

Come try out a chasing challenge tomorrow with us, you can see what it's like (invite open to anyone across time and space and like realities who is curious or nostalgic or otherwise a person (which hopefully covers all the people who are salty and full of salt and salted caramel popcorn as well as those made up of other substances and elements and particles and atoms and nuclei and DNA and unDNA and cotton puffs)

I don't see anything "salty" about his post, just some valid concerns that he brought up in the form of a legitimate (albeit phat) question. It's a shame that the Defender Expo won't allow these kind of questions that could very well determine the future of chasing and how it may be scrutinized by older defenders subsequent to this important conversation.

[King of Dravkia]

just some valid concerns that he brought up in the form of a legitimate (albeit phat) question. It's a shame that the Defender Expo won't allow these kind of questions that could very well determine the future of chasing and how it may be scrutinized by older defenders subsequent to this important conversation.

Maybe because this question completely derails the point of this thread.

[McMannia Times Six]

just some valid concerns that he brought up in the form of a legitimate (albeit phat) question. It's a shame that the Defender Expo won't allow these kind of questions that could very well determine the future of chasing and how it may be scrutinized by older defenders subsequent to this important conversation.

Maybe because this question completely derails the point of this thread.

Seems like a pretty pertinent topic of discussion.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

I thought this was a pretty appropriate place - I also asked first, and DYP at least said fire away. If the hosts would prefer that this get it's own thread instead of continuing to bump their event thread and draw in extra readers, I'd be happy to oblige, but they have so far said no such thing.

Please start a new thread or get it off this one. We get that you're fascinated by NSBreeze++, but this topic is about the Defender Expo/Activities, not "Let's talk about Scripts."

Sincerely,
A DefenderExpo2017 Host
Queen-Minister of the SPSF

Understood. I won't be starting one myself, because I started this discussion because I, well, was "interested in learning more about this aspect of gameplay" as well as in adding a deep and relevant discussion about the present and future of an aspect of defending to the defender expo (not to mention extra readers and free bumps). I think some very cool stuff has come out of it already, it's had some great back and forth, and it has remained impressively civil. It's really a shame you don't want it here any more. If any of those who wanted to keep replying to me want to take it elsewhere, let me know, but I'm not going to get accused of trying to draw attention away from the event by doing so myself

Also, from your comments there, either you failed to read any of the discussion from the initial question, or that's an intentional misrepresentation of what was going on...and either way that's a bit disappointing.

[Defender Expo 2017]

Q&A with DYP

DYP is one of the stalwart defenders in NationStates with a long history of commitment to the cause and a talent for hilarious switchers with on point matching avatars. In addition, you have to VC with him to catch that lovely accent and humor <3

As a long-time and prominent member of the region of Lazarus, DYP has contributed to it greatly and is a great person to talk to about Lazarene history and culture!

1. When did you start playing NationStates? How did you find the game?
I was introduced to NS by a school friend in April 2005. Joined my friends region and sat there answering issues for a few months. Eventually the region died and I moved onto The Youngworld. TYW was my real start in NS, I learnt a lot about the politics of the game as well as R/D from players like Sir Lans and Lucifer Unchained (a member of Gothic Underground, TYW's sister region).

2. What do you like most about NationStates?
The sense of community. From the tiny regions to the GCR's you'll always find a community that'll welcome a new player (from my experience anyway). I lost count of the regions I've been a part of, usually in a FA capacity. I originally went to Lazarus as a Jethnea Ambassador......and never left. Shout out to my fellow forum whores The Merlion and Big Killer Babys wherever they may be.

3. What is your favorite game memory?
Impossible to tell. Every week there's something amusing or memorable. If I had to think really hard it'd be a toss up between being the whole Lazarus government in one term and puppet flooding a region with LannaN in the ADN days. Knowing Sedge in his pre-defending days was also fun (he was such a noob).

4. How has defending changed since you were a defender or started defending?
The only similarity between R/D now and back when I started is the gaining of the delegacy. We had 1 UN (WA) and switching was very dangerous. Scripts were non-existent, update times were mostly guessed and we still had the griefing rule (I had native puppets everywhere waiting to be ejected). Life is so much easier these days so quit your moaning. The other major change is raiders and defenders can chat a lot more these days. Back then it was taboo to even have a raider in your region.

5. What is your advice to new players?
Best advice I can give is have fun. We're playing a game. Don't listen to the old players too much, we might look like we know what we're doing but in reality we're pretty clueless. And above all else, avoid the Gameplay forum like the plague. It's full of ego's, drama and has beens.

We would like to thank DYP for this forthright interview and enjoy his snark and advice during updates <3

[RiderSyl]

And above all else, avoid the Gameplay forum like the plague. It's full of ego's, drama and has beens.

It's great to end the interview with elitism.

[Escade]

(Image)

Q&A with DYP

DYP is one of the stalwart defenders in NationStates with a long history of commitment to the cause and a talent for hilarious switchers with on point matching avatars. In addition, you have to VC with him to catch that lovely accent and humor <3

As a long-time and prominent member of the region of Lazarus, DYP has contributed to it greatly and is a great person to talk to about Lazarene history and culture!

1. When did you start playing NationStates? How did you find the game?
I was introduced to NS by a school friend in April 2005. Joined my friends region and sat there answering issues for a few months. Eventually the region died and I moved onto The Youngworld. TYW was my real start in NS, I learnt a lot about the politics of the game as well as R/D from players like Sir Lans and Lucifer Unchained (a member of Gothic Underground, TYW's sister region).

2. What do you like most about NationStates?
The sense of community. From the tiny regions to the GCR's you'll always find a community that'll welcome a new player (from my experience anyway). I lost count of the regions I've been a part of, usually in a FA capacity. I originally went to Lazarus as a Jethnea Ambassador......and never left. Shout out to my fellow forum whores The Merlion and Big Killer Babys wherever they may be.

3. What is your favorite game memory?
Impossible to tell. Every week there's something amusing or memorable. If I had to think really hard it'd be a toss up between being the whole Lazarus government in one term and puppet flooding a region with LannaN in the ADN days. Knowing Sedge in his pre-defending days was also fun (he was such a noob).

4. How has defending changed since you were a defender or started defending?
The only similarity between R/D now and back when I started is the gaining of the delegacy. We had 1 UN (WA) and switching was very dangerous. Scripts were non-existent, update times were mostly guessed and we still had the griefing rule (I had native puppets everywhere waiting to be ejected). Life is so much easier these days so quit your moaning. The other major change is raiders and defenders can chat a lot more these days. Back then it was taboo to even have a raider in your region.

5. What is your advice to new players?
Best advice I can give is have fun. We're playing a game. Don't listen to the old players too much, we might look like we know what we're doing but in reality we're pretty clueless. And above all else, avoid the Gameplay forum like the plague. It's full of ego's, drama and has beens.

We would like to thank DYP for this forthright interview and enjoy his snark and advice during updates <3

So follow up questions!

2005! Didn't even know NS existed back then Wow, what was it like in the early days?

& you let this guy CTE?



here's another one to so when you revive the first one, he's not all by his little self


<3

[Tinhampton]

2005! Didn't even know NS existed back then

Yeah. The site's been here since November 2002, although GP only really started in earnest with the April 2003 updates - Regional Control, banjection, TRR, the odd coup or twenty... and it went down from there.

[RiderSyl]

And above all else, avoid the Gameplay forum like the plague. It's full of ego's, drama and has beens.

It's great to end the interview with elitism.

To expand on this... Why is there such an elitist view around whether one participates in this forum? You aren't the first to express this, but every time I do hear it expressed I always scratch my head. I participate in off-site communities and never feel compelled to look down on regular Gameplay forum posters as others, like you, seem to.

[Shizensky]

(Image)

Q&A with DYP

I moved onto The Youngworld.

God, this takes me back. When I started I received two (only two!) recruiting telegrams. One was from 10000 Islands and the other was from The Youngworld. I actually thought it was generated by the game, like your starter issues.

[Drop Your Pants]

I participate in off-site communities and never feel compelled to look down on regular Gameplay forum posters as others, like you, seem to.

I wouldn't compare an offsite regional forum or similar to GP. The question was about advice for new players. Personally I wouldn't advise a new player to come here to experience the salt, moaning and baits that have become common practise. Not if I wanted them to stay in NS anyway.

God, this takes me back. When I started I received two (only two!) recruiting telegrams. One was from 10000 Islands and the other was from The Youngworld. I actually thought it was generated by the game, like your starter issues.

You should have joined, we'd have met each other a lot sooner. Actually, did your nation ever CTE? I might have defended your region once....or it was Random Idiots. It started with an R.

And for Escade, Cosmic Sheep is back.

[Red Dusk]

-snip-

Today that speed record has been broken by Red Dusk who brought it down to 1.7s
-snip-

Broken once more. 1.36s average record. (And that is with a 4s move!)

Might've commandeered one of these a few weeks ago... >.> <.<

[Kanglia]

Chasing challenges are actually really really fun, I feel like they should become a little bit more regular thing outside of update, & I might actually steal it for my own groups.

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Some bites from the Expo's discord channel -

[TGW/SDF] Tim - Today at 6:37 PM
I'm curious if Souls will eventually start demanding Miso go on Technical as open-source too soon, with how vehemently he's going after Breeze++
[TGW/SDF] Tim - Today at 6:37 PM
Or is he being driven by gasp partisan interests
Elfin/Imudz屪 - Today at 6:37 PM
I didn't hear about that
[LILY] Chingis - Today at 6:37 PM
Ugh I should probs try file a ghr shouldn't i(edited)
[TGW/SPSF] Nakari - Today at 6:37 PM
he would never

[RRA] frattastan - Today at 8:03 PM
To be fair I don't see the benefit of engaging in a reasoned discussion with him.
"We are all in this game together, let's improve it". No.
[RRA] frattastan - Today at 8:04 PM
It's not even a Tech thread, lol.

Lovely, open-minded Expo you have here. Way to continue to take one example used as part of a wider question/discussion that was going some interesting places, specifically one to which I repeatedly replied to all defenses of with "that's fair," and use it to dismiss the deeper questions behind said example. Also glad to see defending's apparent view on reasoned discussion and improving GP for everyone.

I await a dancing saltshaker gif in reply with bated breath.

[Benevolent Thomas]

I didn't even know this was a thing. Why didn't you tell me about this when you interviewed me?

[Kanglia]

I didn't even know this was a thing. Why didn't you tell me about this when you interviewed me?

Uhhhh, surprise?

[Benevolent Thomas]

I didn't even know this was a thing. Why didn't you tell me about this when you interviewed me?

Uhhhh, surprise?

My interviews are always brief. Had I known something as fancy as this was in the works, I would have volunteered to do a live Q&A on Discord or something. Maybe I'll poke around the server a bit this weekend. Also, why hasn't anyone taken over that Mafia game for me in the Defender Awards?

> goes on an elderly grump rant