Embassy of the South Pacific

[Altmoras]

It's not just Funkadelia, everybody in Lazarus has more endorsements now, hell most of Lazarus' Guardians and its Vice Delegate have more endorsements (200, 194, 193, 188, 187) than the delegates of all the other sinkers (173, 138, 113). That could indicate foreign pilers, but given that people on both sides of whatever shit is stewing there have very high endo counts to me it simply reflects increased activity.

But that's just like, my opinion man, I didn't write the fuckin thing.

[Consular]

You really don't like TSP right now, do you?

Do you ever not evade actual points by deflecting and trying to make everything about the person making them? It's a tired tactic.

Eh, caught red handed I guess.

It's a legitimate observation because ever since you very recently stormed out of TSP you've been chasing a vendetta of them.

An argument is not entirely free from the person making it. Their opinions are bias are very relevant. You're the one "deflecting".

At least they posted something. That's more than any other region.

"At least they posted something"? That implies that they should have posted something. Maybe other regions felt that they should stay out of a complicated internal dispute in Lazarus, instead of making insinuations against the legally elected Sovereign of Lazarus based on conjecture.

Interference in a region's internal affairs based on speculation are not actions taken by a good ally, or any region that is truly committed to upholding Lazarus' sovereignty. Other regions are right to remain silent; it's the South Pacific that is in the wrong here by interfering in an internal Lazarene matter.

That this interference by the South Pacific has occurred very shortly before an election for Sovereign in Lazarus makes it all the more troubling.

Maybe should consider taking your own advice.

You know -- "stay out of a complicated internal dispute in Lazarus, instead of making insinuations". You've been posting more about Lazarus than anyone actually relevant to the dispute.

The statement by TSP contains far less rampant speculation than most of what you've said. Essentially their statement is "something is happening in Lazarus and we are watching the situation".

You're making a mountain out of something that isn't even a hill.

And, as I said, I believe that is explained by you not really liking TSP right now.

[Roavin]

• You insinuated the presence of foreign pilers by noting Funkadelia's unusually high endorsement count and calling it "indicative";

Where does it say foreign? Or imply it? It's noticing.

• You stated that you "unequivocally condemn" unproven "voter importation, illegal actions, and cronyism."

You explicitly added "unproven" to your bullet point; the statement says that accusations have been made (true) and makes no claim whether it has happened or not, only that it's not cool to do by whoever or whenever if at all - the statement even makes it explicit to say "no matter by whom they are committed". What's wrong with that?

The suggestion that this is not malicious meddling is, frankly, absurd.

You still haven't presented how this is, in any way, meddling or interfering. It's noticing things. I also noticed Sygian switched his main nation from Sygian II to The Sygian and that this is now reflected on the TBH WFE, does that mean I'm now meddling in the Black Hawks?

Meanwhile, you essentially calling for Funk to coup at worst and outright break the law at best in the Curious Observations thread is ... not meddling or interfering?

The offer to "mediate" the dispute is equally absurd, in that it would be impossible for a party that has accepted unproven claims being made by one side of the dispute to effectively mediate between the two sides.

That would assume that the South Pacific is taking a side for either faction, which (as I demonstrated) is not the case.

Unless the government of Lazarus requested your intervention, and I'm sure they didn't, you're meddling in an internal conflict that is none of your business.

It's an offer. It's basically "Hey fam, just hit me up if u need anything", similar to how a few months back, we said "Hey Laz, we got ur back, fam", a move that you strongly supported at the time.

It's what good allies do.

[Cormactopia Prime]

It's not just Funkadelia, everybody in Lazarus has more endorsements now, hell most of Lazarus' Guardians and its Vice Delegate have more endorsements (200, 194, 193, 188, 187) than the delegates of all the other sinkers (173, 138, 113). That could indicate foreign pilers, but given that people on both sides of whatever shit is stewing there have very high endo counts to me it simply reflects increased activity.

But that's just like, my opinion man, I didn't write the fuckin thing.

I agree, which is why saying that Funkadelia's endorsement count is "indicative" -- of what, exactly? -- is somewhat perplexing, and points to unfair and inappropriate meddling based on the dissidents' speculation. His endorsement count is not the only one that is higher than usual, and as was pointed out to me by someone yesterday when I pointed out his endorsement count, he has recently conducted telegram campaigns urging Lazarenes to endorse him and all of the Guardians. There are reasonable explanations more likely than these absurd conspiracy theories being put forward.

Thank you for being more fair in your analysis of the situation than most of your fellow defenders, including the Coalition of the South Pacific, have been.

Maybe should consider taking your own advice.

You know -- "stay out of a complicated internal dispute in Lazarus, instead of making insinuations". You've been posting more about Lazarus than anyone actually relevant to the dispute.

I'm just a guy commenting in Gameplay, not the government of an allied region. You may be right that I should take my own advice (though I won't), but the gravity of my comments doesn't even approach being equivalent to an official statement by the Coalition of the South Pacific.

• You insinuated the presence of foreign pilers by noting Funkadelia's unusually high endorsement count and calling it "indicative";

Where does it say foreign? Or imply it? It's noticing.

The statement says his endorsement count is "indicative." Indicative of what, exactly, if not some impropriety?

• You stated that you "unequivocally condemn" unproven "voter importation, illegal actions, and cronyism."

You explicitly added "unproven" to your bullet point; the statement says that accusations have been made (true) and makes no claim whether it has happened or not, only that it's not cool to do by whoever or whenever if at all - the statement even makes it explicit to say "no matter by whom they are committed". What's wrong with that?

By condemning alleged actions that are the subject of unproven accusations, you are granting validity to those accusations. When taken together with singling out Funkadelia's endorsement count and failing to note that all of the Guardians' endorsement counts are higher than usual as well, as Altmoras did, it's clear that you are implicitly taking the side of the dissidents and suggesting that Funkadelia is engaged in voter importation and other impropriety.

Meanwhile, you essentially calling for Funk to coup at worst and outright break the law at best in the Curious Observations thread is ... not meddling or interfering?

See above. My personal comments in Gameplay aren't anywhere near the equivalent of statements by the government of an allied region.

[TSP Foreign Office]

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs

Statement on Lazarus and Pledge of Support for the Government-in-Exile

Yesterday, the Coalition of the South Pacific offered to mediate between the opposing factions in Lazarus, an offer readily accepted by the faction calling itself "La Resistance", while Delegate Funkadelia requested 24 hours to reply. Unfortunately, in this time, Funkadelia and his supporters have decided to overthrow the Lazarene government and purge significant members of the opposition. With assent of the Cabinet and the General Corps of the South Pacific Special Forces, General Resentine entered the Discord server of the resistance to investigate, and was able to confirm that the accusatory screenshots posted by Killer Kitty are maliciously taken out of context and that the resistance did not attempt a coup of the Lazarene government. It is now unambiguously clear that the aggressors in this conflict are Funkadelia, Killer Kitty (Evil Wolf), and Scum (Lamb Stone).

The actions of Delegate Funkadelia and his faction, namely the extra-judicial and illegal removal as well as defamation of their political opponents, is as unambiguous an example of an illegal coup as it is possible to imagine. Claims to the contrary are nothing but the most transparent attempts at propaganda to disguise this, and no informed and objective individual could conclude otherwise. The "Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation between The South Pacific and Lazarus" is an alliance between the legitimate governments of the South Pacific and Lazarus; the term legitimate can no longer be applied to the regime of Funkadelia for the reasons stated above. The South Pacific does not recognize the government of Funkadelia instated at this last minor update, and pledge our support for the government-in-exile as per Article IV Section 3 of our mutual treaty.

Signed,

Roavin, Prime Minister
Escade, Minister of Foreign Affairs
Yun, Minister of Military Affairs
Drugged Monkeys, Delegate-Elect

[Cormactopia Prime]

the faction calling itself "La Resistance"

Okay, who allowed Ike to name the opposition?

The "Treaty of Friendship and Cooperation between The South Pacific and Lazarus" is an alliance between the legitimate governments of the South Pacific and Lazarus; the term legitimate can no longer be applied to the regime of Funkadelia for the reasons stated above. The South Pacific does not recognize the government of Funkadelia instated at this last minor update, and pledge our support for the government-in-exile as per Article IV Section 3 of our mutual treaty.

What is "the legitimate government"? Who comprises the "government-in-exile"? Have legal processes been followed to remove Funkadelia from office, or does the Coalition of the South Pacific now consider itself capable of determining the true government of Lazarus without any reference to Lazarene law?

Defenders supporting defenders. Nothing more, nothing less.

[United Provinces of Atlantica]

As a proud citizen, legislator and soldier in both the South Pacific and Lazarus, I am glad that TSP's government has chosen to correct choice and chosen to defend the freedom and sovereignty of a fellow GCR and one of its closest allies.

[Scum]

The actions taken by the residing Guardians and Sovereign are nothing but legal, in terms of a direct action against this type of conspiracy. The release posted by Killer Kitty onto the Gameplay forum only supplied a small amount of the logs, yes, but the entirety of them have been issued to our courts, as they should be. The release was meant as an explanation of events to inform our residents and other regions of the recent events.

Your refusal to recognize the legally elected officials of Lazarus, who have only filled their duty to our residents for security, is the only aspect of this affair that is contradicting our treaty and our sovereignty. Your General's desire to become directly involved in the clique who was conspiring to coup, though not a surprise, is really quite disturbing and it's a shame you're attempting to brush this off so easily.

[The Septimanian Marches]

I am not surprised that this development has occurred, seeing as a good quarter of those accused of treason are active TSPers. Funny how that works.

[Cormactopia Prime]

The actions taken by the residing Guardians and Sovereign are nothing but legal, in terms of a direct action against this type of conspiracy. The release posted by Killer Kitty onto the Gameplay forum only supplied a small amount of the logs, yes, but the entirety of them have been issued to our courts, as they should be. The release was meant as an explanation of events to inform our residents and other regions of the recent events.

Your refusal to recognize the legally elected officials of Lazarus, who have only filled their duty to our residents for security, is the only aspect of this affair that is contradicting our treaty and our sovereignty. Your General's desire to become directly involved in the clique who was conspiring to coup, though not a surprise, is really quite disturbing and it's a shame you're attempting to brush this off so easily.

You'll find that the South Pacific has no use for non-defender allies. Lazarus' legislature should just terminate the treaty now and be done with it.

[United Federated States of Omega]

Thank you. It's good to see that at least one GCR still believes in the rule of law.

[Ikania]

the faction calling itself "La Resistance"

Okay, who allowed Ike to name the opposition?

It was originally gonna be something kitsch-y like "Alliance To Preserve The Union" but Les Miserables took precedence over Star Wars in the end.

[Nakari]

What is "the legitimate government"? Who comprises the "government-in-exile"? Have legal processes been followed to remove Funkadelia from office, or does the Coalition of the South Pacific now consider itself capable of determining the true government of Lazarus without any reference to Lazarene law?

Defenders supporting defenders. Nothing more, nothing less.

Cormac, weren't you arguing just today that following what is right means more than law?

The South Pacific is doing what is right in believing the region's power should belong to the natives rather than those who have acted to silence dissent, illegally manage votes to consolidate their own power, and remove long-term natives from the region.

[Solorni]

How long will TSP be willing to occupy Lazarus for operation Enduring Defenderism?

[Cormactopia Prime]

Thank you. It's good to see that at least one GCR still believes in the rule of law.

What is "the legitimate government"? Who comprises the "government-in-exile"? Have legal processes been followed to remove Funkadelia from office, or does the Coalition of the South Pacific now consider itself capable of determining the true government of Lazarus without any reference to Lazarene law?

Defenders supporting defenders. Nothing more, nothing less.

Cormac, weren't you arguing just today that following what is right means more than law?

The South Pacific is doing what is right in believing the region's power should belong to the natives rather than those who have acted to silence dissent, illegally manage votes to consolidate their own power, and remove long-term natives from the region.

You need to get your stories straight. Does the South Pacific "still believe in the rule of law," or is it doing what is right, and forget the law? Can't be both.

You are correct, Nakari, I was arguing that and I stand by it. The difference is that I'm not a hypocrite; I don't insist that I support the rule of law and then ignore the law when it's convenient, which is what the South Pacific is doing. Unless Lazarene law has been observed, the South Pacific is supporting an unlawful regime calling itself a "government-in-exile" with no actual basis for doing so in Lazarene law. What makes it anymore legitimate, in the legalistic view of the South Pacific, than Funkadelia's government (which is actually the legal government)? Its defender status, most likely.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You either respect the rule of law or you don't. If you don't, your entire position on this is nonsensical.

Also, are you trying to argue with a straight face that Funkadelia and Killer Kitty are not natives of Lazarus? I don't think you have that right.

[Nakari]

Thank you. It's good to see that at least one GCR still believes in the rule of law.

Cormac, weren't you arguing just today that following what is right means more than law?

The South Pacific is doing what is right in believing the region's power should belong to the natives rather than those who have acted to silence dissent, illegally manage votes to consolidate their own power, and remove long-term natives from the region.

You need to get your stories straight. Does the South Pacific "still believe in the rule of law," or is it doing what is right, and forget the law? Can't be both.

You are correct, Nakari. The difference is that I'm not a hypocrite; I don't insist that I support the rule of law and then ignore the law when it's convenient, which is what the South Pacific is doing. Unless Lazarene law has been observed, the South Pacific is supporting an unlawful regime calling itself a "government-in-exile" with no actual basis for doing so in Lazarene law. What makes it anymore legitimate, in the legalistic view of the South Pacific, than Funkadelia's government (which is actually the legal government)? Its defender status, most likely.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You either respect the rule of law or you don't. If you don't, your entire position on this is nonsensical.

It is lawful. I'm bringing up the argument that it's the decent thing to do to cover the people who refuse to believe it's lawful.

re: Funk and Killer Kitty - natives, yes. And the ones they banned - also natives.

[Roavin]

You'll find that the South Pacific has no use for non-defender allies.

I guess that means that our wonderful ally The North Pacific is defender now?

[Belschaft]

You'll find that the South Pacific has no use for non-defender allies.

I guess that means that our wonderful ally The North Pacific is defender now?

Europeia as well one would assume.

[Cormactopia Prime]

You need to get your stories straight. Does the South Pacific "still believe in the rule of law," or is it doing what is right, and forget the law? Can't be both.

You are correct, Nakari. The difference is that I'm not a hypocrite; I don't insist that I support the rule of law and then ignore the law when it's convenient, which is what the South Pacific is doing. Unless Lazarene law has been observed, the South Pacific is supporting an unlawful regime calling itself a "government-in-exile" with no actual basis for doing so in Lazarene law. What makes it anymore legitimate, in the legalistic view of the South Pacific, than Funkadelia's government (which is actually the legal government)? Its defender status, most likely.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. You either respect the rule of law or you don't. If you don't, your entire position on this is nonsensical.

It is lawful. I'm bringing up the argument that it's the decent thing to do to cover the people who refuse to believe it's lawful.

re: Funk and Killer Kitty - natives, yes. And the ones they banned - also natives.

So, if it's lawful, I assume the answer to my question is yes, Funkadelia has been removed from office according to legal procedure? Or not?

You said, and I quote: "[T]he region's power should belong to the natives rather than" those you accused of various wrongdoing, i.e., Funkadelia, et al. Wouldn't that "rather than" suggest that Funkadelia and Killer Kitty are not natives, in your view? You're putting forward the argument that this "government-in-exile" is more legitimate because it's run by natives. If that is also true of the government you oppose, doesn't your argument fall apart? The reason these arguments are incoherent is because they aren't your true motives. Defenders supporting defenders. That's all any of this is about.

I guess that means that our wonderful ally The North Pacific is defender now?

Europeia as well one would assume.

Let's be real, the South Pacific's elites hold both alliances in low regard. I'm fairly sure they're only retained so they can be trotted out on occasions such as this to prove that the South Pacific really isn't defender and motivated by defender interests. It's transparently disingenuous.

[Nakari]

So, if it's lawful, I assume the answer to my question is yes, Funkadelia has been removed from office according to legal procedure? Or not?

You said, and I quote: "[T]he region's power should belong to the natives rather than" those you accused of various wrongdoing, i.e., Funkadelia, et al. Wouldn't that "rather than" suggest that Funkadelia and Killer Kitty are not natives, in your view? You're putting forward the argument that this "government-in-exile" is more legitimate because it's run by natives. If that is also true of the government you oppose, doesn't your argument fall apart? The reason these arguments are incoherent is because they aren't your true motives. Defenders supporting defenders. That's all any of this is about.

Europeia as well one would assume.

Let's be real, the South Pacific's elites hold both alliances in low regard. I'm fairly sure they're only retained so they can be trotted out on occasions such as this to prove that the South Pacific really isn't defender and motivated by defender interests. It's transparently disingenuous.

Actually, my arguments are incoherent because I'm not an experienced propagandist. Though I do one day aspire to be as good as twisting words as you are.

Funkadelia's government was created with the assistance of votes later found to be illegal due to new voters being counted when they should not have been. These voters can't be counted as natives since they've had such little involvement in the region. Funkadelia and Killer Kitty are natives backed by non-natives who have now removed many genuine natives from government. That is what makes one more legitimate than the other. In my personal view, at least - I don't speak for the South Pacific, I'm only speaking in support.

I don't particularly like the accusation that defenders don't care about natives at all, but I suppose even saying that means I only care about defenders' reputation or something.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Let's be real, the South Pacific's elites hold both alliances in low regard. I'm fairly sure they're only retained so they can be trotted out on occasions such as this to prove that the South Pacific really isn't defender and motivated by defender interests. It's transparently disingenuous.

Spare us your accusations. You literally left TSP in a dramatic huff because you said I'm corrupt and want to violate/abuse TSP's laws to ban people I don't like. 1.5 weeks later, you're advocating for Funk's purge of his political opposition in Lazarus, saying that laws are low on your list of what a Delegate should prioritize.

You're the last person to lecture anyone on being disingenuous.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Actually, my arguments are incoherent because I'm not an experienced propagandist. Though I do one day aspire to be as good as twisting words as you are.

Funkadelia's government was created with the assistance of votes later found to be illegal due to new voters being counted when they should not have been. These voters can't be counted as natives since they've had such little involvement in the region. Funkadelia and Killer Kitty are natives backed by non-natives who have now removed many genuine natives from government. That is what makes one more legitimate than the other. In my personal view, at least - I don't speak for the South Pacific, I'm only speaking in support.

I don't particularly like the accusation that defenders don't care about natives at all, but I suppose even saying that means I only care about defenders' reputation or something.

So it is your contention that Funkadelia is an illegitimate Delegate because he was elected by "imported voters"? I have good news, then! The people accused of being "imported voters" just arrived recently, and Funkadelia has been in office for over 100 days. He wasn't elected by them.

This is not even to mention the complete absence of proof that these people were imported. Repeating a claim over and over doesn't make it true. You still need evidence, and there has never been any hard evidence produced for voter importation.

[Roavin]

Europeia as well one would assume.

Let's be real, the South Pacific's elites hold both alliances in low regard. I'm fairly sure they're only retained so they can be trotted out on occasions such as this to prove that the South Pacific really isn't defender and motivated by defender interests. It's transparently disingenuous.

Okay let's look at what one of these South Pacifican elites, Glen-Rhodes, thinks about, say, TNP.

[4:58 PM] hierocles: @Roavin Eluvatar came to our aid, and in fact TNP has been a great ally.

You were even there when he said that.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Okay let's look at what one of these South Pacifican elites, Glen-Rhodes, thinks about, say, TNP.

[4:58 PM] hierocles: @Roavin Eluvatar came to our aid, and in fact TNP has been a great ally.

You were even there when he said that.

Would you care to produce some quotes from you and Tim about TNP, or shall I?

[Roavin]

Okay let's look at what one of these South Pacifican elites, Glen-Rhodes, thinks about, say, TNP.

[4:58 PM] hierocles: @Roavin Eluvatar came to our aid, and in fact TNP has been a great ally.

You were even there when he said that.

Would you care to produce some quotes from you and Tim about TNP, or shall I?

You'd be hard pressed to find any casting the TSP-TNP alliance in a bad light.

Because Glen is right - TNP has been an awesome ally for TSP.