Embassy of the South Pacific

[Darcania]

I recall a time when I once posted in this forum thread with sparkling graphics that graced our screens with the mundane numbers of our WA population. How so very much has changed in the period since.

With all due respect to respondees present—as I type this, I realise how 'with all due respect' has now taken a cultural shift to one which denotes the opposite but with a hint of sarcasm and assure you I mean so with sincerity—these matters are very much at the forefront of the government's mind.

In that vein, and to respond to GBM's respectful and understandable query, the Cabinet will indeed be issuing further clarification and communication in due course.

[I forgot about my magnificently coloured signature. Please consider this as being made in an official capacity as nominee for Minister of Foreign Affairs]

The nominee for TSP's Foreign Affairs Minister has already spoken in this thread, fwiw.

[Qvait]

And don't pretend like TSPers didn't also engage in this. We're well aware you did.

Don't try to conflate individual action with government-sponsored downvoting.

[Belschaft]

Glen isn't part of TSP's Cabinet and doesn't speak for the region - his views are his own and generally reflect an extreme outlier in regional opinion. He is simply vocal, undiplomatic and predisposed to mouthing off here.

[Qvait]

Does the entire region think like this?

TNP said it themselves that they have people in their ranks that want to see the treaty become defunct. Well, newsflash, that sentiment goes both ways. I can bet that that was McM's goal in 2021. In any event, there are enough historical and repeated acts of injustice against TSP that lend justification to that.

Though, why would someone from TCB give a single shit about this other than to stir the pot for their own gain? Let's be real, you don't really care.

[Sandaoguo]

Glen isn't part of TSP's Cabinet and doesn't speak for the region - his views are his own and generally reflect an extreme outlier in regional opinion. He is simply vocal, undiplomatic and predisposed to mouthing off here.

Thank god for that too, tbh! When I *was* in Cabinet and succumbed to the same pressures to keep the alliance alive that the current Cabinet is no doubt experiencing from everybody except the TSP Assembly, I predicted there would continue to be major problems and Roavin’s brokered settlement about being called fascist-enablers was nothing more than a temporary band aid. I may be undiplomatic and an “extreme outlier” (lol I’m not, but sure), but I also tend to be proven correct more often than not.

I’m still willing to bet Real Money* that, if the alliance remains after this episode, TNP and TSP will be back in an existential crisis again by the end of the year.


*”Real Money” defined as whatever does not break the NS TOS.

[Darcania]

I’m still willing to bet Real Money* that, if the alliance remains after this episode, TNP and TSP will be back in an existential crisis again by the end of the year.


*”Real Money” defined as whatever does not break the NS TOS.

No bet, knowing your statements in this thread so far you'd just invent something lol

[Qvait]

I’m still willing to bet Real Money* that, if the alliance remains after this episode, TNP and TSP will be back in an existential crisis again by the end of the year.


*”Real Money” defined as whatever does not break the NS TOS.

At the rate we're going, they're gonna be protesting that their preferred candidate didn't win the August election.

[Mlakhavia]

Does the entire region think like this?

TNP said it themselves that they have people in their ranks that want to see the treaty become defunct. Well, newsflash, that sentiment goes both ways. I can bet that that was McM's goal in 2021. In any event, there are enough historical and repeated acts of injustice against TSP that lend justification to that.

Though, why would someone from TCB give a single shit about this other than to stir the pot for their own gain? Let's be real, you don't really care.

I believe it would be imprudent to tout historical acts of injustice against TSP when the interregional community is still reeling from TSP's own act of historical injustice against TNP. You know, a mistake acknowledged and apologised for by TSP's government (albeit two weeks late) and everyone else who was caught with their pants down?

Anyway, as you've noticed, I am nought but a humble TCB'er, m'lord, though I am flattered you believe the administrations of both regions care enough about my statements to render anything I say 'stirring the pot'. Regardless, I think you're very much mistaken -- I have no horses in the TNP/TSP treaty race, and whether it sustains itself or collapses is of little importance to me. What is of importance, however, is whether TSP, one of the oldest and greatest powers of the game, is setting a diplomatic precedent here. If it is, then that can only mean more woe for the peace-loving peoples of NationStates, all at the hubris of some 'fenda moralists who went too far with their zeal.

[Kringalia]

What implications?

I thought you said that as CJ it was best not to state an opinion? Because all this playing dumb around the elephant in the room makes your personal position astoundingly clear. Does the entire region think like this? I think TSP's govt. better clarify soon lest people begin to think they agree with Glen over there...

I did not state an opinion. I asked what they thought were the implications because I wanted to hear their views rather than assume something that could be mistaken.

[Mlakhavia]

I thought you said that as CJ it was best not to state an opinion? Because all this playing dumb around the elephant in the room makes your personal position astoundingly clear. Does the entire region think like this? I think TSP's govt. better clarify soon lest people begin to think they agree with Glen over there...

I did not state an opinion. I asked what they thought were the implications because I wanted to hear their views rather than assume something that could be mistaken.

With all due respect, I believe that if you cannot infer the rather blatant implications that surround this whole debacle, you do not possess the skills worthy of your office.

[Madjack]

I thought you said that as CJ it was best not to state an opinion? Because all this playing dumb around the elephant in the room makes your personal position astoundingly clear. Does the entire region think like this? I think TSP's govt. better clarify soon lest people begin to think they agree with Glen over there...

I did not state an opinion. I asked what they thought were the implications because I wanted to hear their views rather than assume something that could be mistaken.

Given that it clearly won't happen - in an unofficial capacity as someone familiar with TSP's criminal code, does what HumanSanity did meet the threshold for a case of extortion to be laid against them?

[Kringalia]

I did not state an opinion. I asked what they thought were the implications because I wanted to hear their views rather than assume something that could be mistaken.

Given that it clearly won't happen - in an unofficial capacity as someone familiar with TSP's criminal code, does what HumanSanity did meet the threshold for a case of extortion to be laid against them?

You know I can't answer that. If someone believes that there has been a violation of the Criminal Code then they are welcome to submit a criminal complaint and the Court will give it fair consideration.

[Madjack]

Given that it clearly won't happen - in an unofficial capacity as someone familiar with TSP's criminal code, does what HumanSanity did meet the threshold for a case of extortion to be laid against them?

You know I can't answer that. If someone believes that there has been a violation of the Criminal Code then they are welcome to submit a criminal complaint and the Court will give it fair consideration.

Do non-TSP members have standing for that?

[Unibot III]

I don’t think this is intended to be a sincere discussion if you’re arguing that.

Given that you used The Rejected Times to target TNP during your time as TRR delegate, I'm not sure a sincere discussion on TNP is something you can even engage in.

I certainly criticized TNP as Editor in Chief (before and during my time as delegate) but I never (err, rarely) used the newspaper to take the piss.

I recall TNP trying to intervene with our FA Office to stop the publication of critical material by TRT, and later TNP publicly calling on TRR in an official communique to reject my delegacy after a negative op-ed. None of that reflects well on TNP’s tolerance of free press and opposition, which was the gist of my central criticism of TNP over the many years: that, while on the road to attaining superpower status, TNP steadily abandoned its democratic values.

Some TSPers have expressed concerns in this thread that their region’s sovereignty is at risk here in regard to HS, so I especially don’t think it’s helpful for your case to point to instances where TNP was in the past heavy-handed towards TRR and its public media for writing some commentary stuff.

[Kringalia]

You know I can't answer that. If someone believes that there has been a violation of the Criminal Code then they are welcome to submit a criminal complaint and the Court will give it fair consideration.

Do non-TSP members have standing for that?

I would rather not give a definitive answer, but "members of the South Pacific" do have a clear right to submit cases.

[Improper Classifications]

Do non-TSP members have standing for that?

I would rather not give a definitive answer, but "members of the South Pacific" do have a clear right to submit cases.

So one could move into TSP for 20 seconds to submit their court case?

[Sandaoguo]

"I can't believe TSP would violate our sovereignty by... making us choose between voting with raiders or defenders on SC C&Cs! It's extortion! It's dirty politics and borderline blackmail!"

"Maybe we should consider planting a puppet in TSP so we can try to file criminal charges against HS for his diplomatic strategy..."

"I don't see how I'm the hypocrite here!"

[Madjack]

"I can't believe TSP would violate our sovereignty by... making us choose between voting with raiders or defenders on SC C&Cs! It's extortion! It's dirty politics and borderline blackmail!"

"Maybe we should consider planting a puppet in TSP so we can try to file criminal charges against HS for his diplomatic strategy..."

"I don't see how I'm the hypocrite here!"

Extortion. It wasn't "diplomatic strategy". It was extortion. Stop down playing what HS did. It damages what little credibility you have left.

[Wymondham]

"I can't believe TSP would violate our sovereignty by... making us choose between voting with raiders or defenders on SC C&Cs! It's extortion! It's dirty politics and borderline blackmail!"

"Maybe we should consider planting a puppet in TSP so we can try to file criminal charges against HS for his diplomatic strategy..."

"I don't see how I'm the hypocrite here!"

Extortion. It wasn't "diplomatic strategy". It was extortion. Stop down playing what HS did. It damages what little credibility you have left.

Smh MJ, can't you see, HS didn't extort anyone, they simply made TNP an offer we can't refuse. What could possibly be improper about that

[Sandaoguo]

Extortion. It wasn't "diplomatic strategy". It was extortion. Stop down playing what HS did. It damages what little credibility you have left.

TSP voting in TNP's interests on C&Cs being contingent on TNP returning the favor is not in any way, shape, or form "extortion." It's nobody's fault but your own that you apparently can't handle literal negotiation. It's called tit-for-tat and it's a classic strategy when you can't trust the other partner to stick to their promises.

Is it the way allies should be cooperating? No, again. Allies wouldn't have to do it. Which is the whole point.

Are all the not-so-subtle threats to dissolve the alliance because of HS's appoint also extortion in your view, I wonder? Or is basic diplomacy only extortion when you're the one feeling pressured?

[Zemnaya Svoboda]

If you're going to show people you can't be trusted, don't be surprised if they want you to do something to prove your commitment. The carrot-and-stick approach requires a stick. Should that approach be necessary among allies? Nope. Does your Delegates inconsistency and flip-flopping indicate a broader pattern with TNP vis-a-vis the credibility of their treaty commitments? Hm....

This sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy. We can't trust TNP to side with us, so we should test them by demanding they do something that's not important in an ultimatum. That's not the way one should treat allies, but clearly that just shows that we shouldn't be allies.

How did Belschaft participate in Hileville's coup again? Did he swear an oath to the Transitional Government? Did he register an account on Hileville's forum? Did he apply for citizenship on Hilevillle's forum, and see it processed by the Vice Delegate there?

And you seriously wonder why I think the way I do about TNP, after this apologia? Not worth engaging anymore.

Are Elu/George now trying to argue that Belschaft wasn’t in on the Hileville coup? Fuck me, guys. That’s the biggest load of horseshit you’ve dredged up in a long time.

I don’t think this is intended to be a sincere discussion if you’re arguing that.

I honestly don't remember how involved Belschaft was with Hileville then! I know, obviously, that he wanted the South Pacific to be "Independent" and not "Defender" in alignment, and that he disliked Sandaoguo et al. But I know he wasn't a member of the Cabinet who signed off on Hileville's forum move and signed off on the 'dissolution' of the Coalition and creation of a "Transitional Government." So I was honestly asking, what the specific level of involvement in things he had was.

It shouldn't surprise you that I don't equate participation in Hileville's offsite with support for the Transitional Government. So pointing to my drawing that distinction and asking for clarification now as a sign that I'm not engaging in this historical discussion in good faith seems strange.

I could point to your manner of selection for which points of mine to reply to, much more meaningfully.

Be warned, potential partners of 'Independent' regions. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Give me a one handed economist...

TNP isn't a person, it can't be "victim blamed." Your region can't be trusted to stick to its stated commitments, so has to be handled with classic realpolitik and carrot-and-sticks. If you don't like that, demonstrate you can be trusted. Good luck finding that thin line again to balance your reliability to both defenders and raiders. The focus right now is on TNP's relationship with defender TSP, but this same scenario will easily happen again with raiders, or it'll be one of another thousand tricky scenarios TNP subjects itself to as an Independent region.

In case you missed it, TNP hasn't really devoted much attention to Lone Wolves United after the incident. We have no relations with them, now. All the diplomatic focus from TNP's end has been on trying to repair relations with tSP and the other involved defender regions.

Although you didn't reply to my interrogation of your curious blend of ideologue and realpolitik it's interesting to see you now say that TNP is somehow unusually untrustworthy. Fellow defender regions, presumably, can be treated with respect, but independents can only be handled with hard-nosed hawkish hatred realism and purely transactional dealings.

You didn't reply to my argument that TNP and tSP share democratic values. Do you agree with Unibot that TNP isn't democratic?

TSP voting in TNP's interests on C&Cs being contingent on TNP returning the favor is not in any way, shape, or form "extortion." It's nobody's fault but your own that you apparently can't handle literal negotiation. It's called tit-for-tat and it's a classic strategy when you can't trust the other partner to stick to their promises.

Is it the way allies should be cooperating? No, again. Allies wouldn't have to do it. Which is the whole point.

Are all the not-so-subtle threats to dissolve the alliance because of HS's appoint also extortion in your view, I wonder? Or is basic diplomacy only extortion when you're the one feeling pressured?

Tit-for-tat is proportional. I think one of the reasons why the disclosures by Lone Wolves United were so damaging, to Wymondham and Hulldom, and to TNP's relations with tSP and the other involved defenders, was that this ultimatum lacked proportionality. If HumanSanity had said "If you vote against Commend Amerion and Commend Beepee we'll vote against Commend MadJack and Commend Former English Colony" that would I think have led to a very different debate. But in this case HumanSanity was threatening to stomp against Commend Madjack and Commend Former English Colony (or other future resolutions!) with the backing of four other regions and as retaliation against Hulldom even abstaining from voting for or against any proposals condemning Lone Wolves United members, even one Hulldom was a co-author of. Only voting against any proposals condemning any Lone Wolves United nation would be acceptable, or else. So not two vs two resolutions necessarily, and not two TNP resolutions for two tSP resolutions, but two or more TNP resolutions for any, even one resolution regarding LWU, even one co-authored by TNP's delegate. That looks a lot more like Grim trigger than tit for tat, to me!

Finally, I'm glad to see Amerion's post, and look forward to more from their office.

[Orcuo]

I love watching this all play out. It’s like a sitcom, except the actors are completely unaware they are putting on a show.

[Southern Ocala]

How about, TNP focus on TNP, and TSP focus on TSP.
Stop arguing over the littlest shit.

[Zemnaya Svoboda]

I love watching this all play out. It’s like a sitcom, except the actors are completely unaware they are putting on a show.

Thank you, thank you, I'm here all week.

How about, TNP focus on TNP, and TSP focus on TSP.
Stop arguing over the littlest shit.

But then we'd only be practicing regional politics, not inter-regional politics. How passé.

[Hulldom]

I love watching this all play out. It’s like a sitcom, except the actors are completely unaware they are putting on a show.

I believe they’re well aware. But unfortunately some peoples’ metaphorical mouths keep getting ahead of them.

And I think it’s ironic you mention grim triggers, Elu, considering I think we covered that in my game theory seminar the week HS issued the threat.