NationStates

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:37 pm**

The Church of Satan wrote:
Baedan wrote:Have you read TNP's initial statement? I think it might clear up some of your misconceptions.

What's so unclear? That TNP thinks it's okay to spit all over the legacy of Shizensky, Renegade Islands, and everything it stood for by deciding that a quorum raid against the region was okay? What part of that did I miss? or is it that TNP wouldn't have had the balls to do that just a few short years ago when the region would have been able to defend itself? Because it's pretty clear that TNP's principles took a backseat in this instance.

I was referring specifically to your assertion that a telegram would've solved the problem.

Unibot III wrote:
Baedan wrote:I'm unbelievably excited for whatever terrible take you're about to have.

Is it a bad take? TNP authorizes attacks on regions that would be unlawful against itself. Then wraps it up it all up in the blue flag and sings the anthem. If TNP wants people to respect their sovereignty, perhaps it should show more respect for other regions too.

TNP occasionally raids people, and yet would oppose a coup? Curious!!

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:54 pm**

Unibot III wrote:
Is it a bad take? TNP authorizes attacks on regions that would be unlawful against itself. Then wraps it up it all up in the blue flag and sings the anthem. If TNP wants people to respect their sovereignty, perhaps it should show more respect for other regions too.

TNP occasionally raids people, and yet would oppose a coup? Curious!!

You’re making an arbitrary distinction based off the size of TNP versus the innocent regions it has invaded. They’re smaller regions, sure, but they still have the same sort of rights to its regional sovereignty as TNP expects for itself. TNP would never accept some other region invading it to quorum-raid — indeed, a small team could quorum raid TNP if it wanted to!

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2021 7:57 pm**

Comfed wrote:One statement does not an innocent region make. The same people are in charge. The burden of proof falls on them to prove they aren’t fascist.

And it falls on others to listen to see if its true, not stick your fingers in your ears and go 'lalalalala I can't hear you and i\m still right'

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2021 8:41 pm**

Unibot III wrote:
TNP occasionally raids people, and yet would oppose a coup? Curious!!

You’re making an arbitrary distinction based off the size of TNP versus the innocent regions it has invaded. They’re smaller regions, sure, but they still have the same sort of rights to its regional sovereignty as TNP expects for itself. TNP would never accept some other region invading it to quorum-raid — indeed, a small team could quorum raid TNP if it wanted to!

A small team of 17 people, yes

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:05 pm**

Drop Your Pants wrote:
Comfed wrote:One statement does not an innocent region make. The same people are in charge. The burden of proof falls on them to prove they aren’t fascist.

And it falls on others to listen to see if its true, not stick your fingers in your ears and go 'lalalalala I can't hear you and i\m still right'

Yeah, but DYP, no one has ever said CCD isn't fash before.

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2021 9:46 pm**

Makdon wrote:Idk if CCD is still fascist, not really much way for me to know without putting a puppet in and hanging around, and I'm far to lazy for that. They're clearly making a public effort to appear antifascist, how legitimate it is is anyone's guess. However, err on the side of caution all you like, whether CCD remains fascist isn't really the point of these complaints (at least that's the way I'm reading most of them) and is just a stupid waste of time to discuss. What's annoying is that the NPA tipped delegates who they had significant history could've easily just dmed/tged without causing them the annoyance of getting raided. Why TNP's leadership didn't do this we'll never know, but I do wish ya'll had at least justified it with their attempted coup of TNP instead something so contentious, like CCD's political stance. I'm a TNP citizen, and I'm more than happy to see CCD not getting public attention, but both the methodology and optics of this are questionable.

Anyways, not a great look for the NPA when you tip delegates who have participated in antifascist operations in the name of antifascism. Not much doubt they would've removed their approval if told what they were getting into.

This, basically. It's not like the proposal had a realistic chance of passing either, and the SC queue is empty.

Posted: **Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:17 pm**

Unibot III wrote:
TNP occasionally raids people, and yet would oppose a coup? Curious!!

You’re making an arbitrary distinction based off the size of TNP versus the innocent regions it has invaded. They’re smaller regions, sure, but they still have the same sort of rights to its regional sovereignty as TNP expects for itself. TNP would never accept some other region invading it to quorum-raid — indeed, a small team could quorum raid TNP if it wanted to!

You know what. You might be onto something there Unibot.

Posted: **Wed Jan 27, 2021 12:58 am**

Baedan wrote:
I was referring specifically to your assertion that a telegram would've solved the problem.

With regards to Renegade Islands, I am 100% certain that it definitely would have. They would have withdrew their approval if TNP had actually tried to talk to them. You know how I know that? Because I know both Shizensky and everyone else in Renegade Islands. Very well. They haven't been involved in GP for a very long time and they certainly don't know anything about current events. But TNP just can't be bothered to type out five sentences or less to clue them in about the resolution, right? Or is it that TNP has become relentlessly crude for 2021?

Posted: **Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:26 am**

Crazy girl wrote:
The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:When was The Moon an ally of The North Pacific?

I always considered the North Pacific to be a friend and ally of myself (considering I helped train the first iteration of the NPA, not to mention operation puppet master and general support and friendly relations over the years), and I thought the North Pacific thought the same of me.

This is unfortunately not new news CG, modern day TNP really doesn't have any respect for the regions and individuals that had sleepless nights protecting it against threat after threat in its more turbulent years (save for a few great individuals with long memories).

The region now operates with the ego of the largest region in the game, and feels like it can insult allies and take acts of aggression against long term friends without any form of repercussions and it's leaders act shocked when those actions generate ill-will against it.

Posted: **Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:08 am**

I'm happy to see this statement from TSP. I am the delegate for a region which is largely populated by debaters. If someone tgs me and asks me to approve their proposal, I'll do it no questions asked just because I believe in increasing debate in the WA. The first thing I did following the TNP raid on my region was recruit more people and re-approve.

Is a statement regarding the NPO's very similar actions forthcoming? I note that they acted in the same way (albeit with less operational success) as TNP did, and don't have the same negative history with CCD to fall back on.

Posted: **Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:19 am**

CoraSpia wrote:I'm happy to see this statement from TSP. I am the delegate for a region which is largely populated by debaters. If someone tgs me and asks me to approve their proposal, I'll do it no questions asked just because I believe in increasing debate in the WA. The first thing I did following the TNP raid on my region was recruit more people and re-approve.

Is a statement regarding the NPO's very similar actions forthcoming? I note that they acted in the same way (albeit with less operational success) as TNP did, and don't have the same negative history with CCD to fall back on.

NPO pledged to take action against CCD after the coup attempt came out, and we haven't retracted that statement at this point. We were also requested by NPA specifically to assist, and did so. We had decided to leave it alone and ignore it. We agreed to NPA's request because CCD attempted to bring harm to TNP.

TSP's statement is objecting to what they consider TNP calling them individuals who sanction fascism, not quorum raiding in general. TSP knows perfectly well that if they have issue with NPO doing something, they may speak with us about it. Thus far they have not approached us in any capacity to discuss issue with our assistance of NPA in their quorum run. Had TNP's statement not contained wording which they found objectionable, there would be no statement about this at all. You fail to understand the politics in place here.

There are ways to remove yourself from a target list on a quorum raid run while still supporting your original course of action, and you just seem to have focused so much on doubling down that you haven't considered preventative measures instead. A few more numbers won't protect you if NPA gets serious about quorum raiding you. They are one of the largest GCR militaries in the game.

Posted: **Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:38 am**

Lord Dominator wrote:
Unibot III wrote:
You’re making an arbitrary distinction based off the size of TNP versus the innocent regions it has invaded. They’re smaller regions, sure, but they still have the same sort of rights to its regional sovereignty as TNP expects for itself. TNP would never accept some other region invading it to quorum-raid — indeed, a small team could quorum raid TNP if it wanted to!

A small team of 17 people, yes

Is that big these days? God I’m getting old. I’m just going back to waving my cane around in TNP’s direction and making chompy jello noises. Hmhuar ypl- mmm chmmm

Parxland wrote:
Unibot III wrote:
You’re making an arbitrary distinction based off the size of TNP versus the innocent regions it has invaded. They’re smaller regions, sure, but they still have the same sort of rights to its regional sovereignty as TNP expects for itself. TNP would never accept some other region invading it to quorum-raid — indeed, a small team could quorum raid TNP if it wanted to!

You know what. You might be onto something there Unibot.

I just think TNP is acting as though it has the right to treat other regions in a way that it wouldn’t want to be trespassed because it’s big and “secure.”

Xoriet wrote:There are ways to remove yourself from a target list on a quorum raid run while still supporting your original course of action, and you just seem to have focused so much on doubling down that you haven't considered preventative measures instead. A few more numbers won't protect you if NPA gets serious about quorum raiding you. They are one of the largest GCR militaries in the game.

TNP took great exception to the key preventative measure though: the counter-operation. TNP’s most recent statement comes *very* close to accusing defender forces of harbouring fascism for defending innocent regions that never approved of TNP/NPO invading them.

Posted: **Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:10 am**

Xoriet wrote:
CoraSpia wrote:I'm happy to see this statement from TSP. I am the delegate for a region which is largely populated by debaters. If someone tgs me and asks me to approve their proposal, I'll do it no questions asked just because I believe in increasing debate in the WA. The first thing I did following the TNP raid on my region was recruit more people and re-approve.

Is a statement regarding the NPO's very similar actions forthcoming? I note that they acted in the same way (albeit with less operational success) as TNP did, and don't have the same negative history with CCD to fall back on.

NPO pledged to take action against CCD after the coup attempt came out, and we haven't retracted that statement at this point. We were also requested by NPA specifically to assist, and did so. We had decided to leave it alone and ignore it. We agreed to NPA's request because CCD attempted to bring harm to TNP.

TSP's statement is objecting to what they consider TNP calling them individuals who sanction fascism, not quorum raiding in general. TSP knows perfectly well that if they have issue with NPO doing something, they may speak with us about it. Thus far they have not approached us in any capacity to discuss issue with our assistance of NPA in their quorum run. Had TNP's statement not contained wording which they found objectionable, there would be no statement about this at all. You fail to understand the politics in place here.

There are ways to remove yourself from a target list on a quorum raid run while still supporting your original course of action, and you just seem to have focused so much on doubling down that you haven't considered preventative measures instead. A few more numbers won't protect you if NPA gets serious about quorum raiding you. They are one of the largest GCR militaries in the game.

Prima Victoria is not a gameplay region. The purpose of the WA delegacy is to approve any and all well-written proposals and to vote according to the democratic will of the region. What preventative measures would suggest? Given we run recruitment tgs 24/7, a password might get a little confusing.

Posted: **Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:13 am**

I’m not sure where you got the message that the delegates who approved the resolution weren’t contacted.

Posted: **Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:14 am**

Comfed wrote:I’m not sure where you got the message that the delegates who approved the resolution weren’t contacted.

They were contacted...after they'd started quarum raiding. In what world is that going to convince them to side with TNP's cause?

Posted: **Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:17 am**

Comfed wrote:I’m not sure where you got the message that the delegates who approved the resolution weren’t contacted.

Unless they've turned off WA Campaign TG's, I know I have.

Posted: **Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:47 am**

CoraSpia wrote:
Comfed wrote:I’m not sure where you got the message that the delegates who approved the resolution weren’t contacted.

They were contacted...after they'd started quarum raiding. In what world is that going to convince them to side with TNP's cause?

This is a lie. We started our telegram campaign well before quorum raiding began.

Posted: **Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:35 am**

CoraSpia wrote:
Comfed wrote:I’m not sure where you got the message that the delegates who approved the resolution weren’t contacted.

They were contacted...after they'd started quarum raiding. In what world is that going to convince them to side with TNP's cause?

What are you on about? You responded to my telegram before the quorum raiding started. Additionally, the one region that was raided who blocked the first campaign TG (of the four that did block it) I made sure received the counter-counter, though I'm aware that may not have been effective as receiving both telegrams. I'm fairly sure I took the correct steps to make sure every delegate received a telegram - if I did not, I apologize and I'd appreciate it if you'd let me know.

Posted: **Wed Jan 27, 2021 9:38 am**

Why is it that whenever we have unoriginal, brainless squabbling in the SC, TSP always seems to be the center of it? I like TSP in general, but at this point it's FA is at-best loud and raucous, and at-worst them whining to NSGP about all their problems.

I'm not one to stray away from an argument, but in this case, one is not going to help anyone. This is obviously — and I mean obviously — an "agree to disagree" matter. TNP thinks it's justified to raid non-fascist regions to stop proposals it views as backing fascists (the question of whether CCD is fascist is a completely different argument, and I don't think TSP is here as their advocate), and TSP disagrees, because they put more emphasis on regional sovereignty. This is rooted in very strongly-felt sentiments about defending other region's sovereignty, with TNP de-emphasizing it, and TSP considering it very important. In other words, whether you think this quorum raiding was justified is a party-lines matter of whatever R/D group you follow.

You guys have been content up until this point with maintaining positive relations despite your ideological R/D differences. I don't see why things have to change now. And I definitely don't see why people should be postponing festivals or talking about mass persecution over this silly disagreement.

Also, this is doubly stupid, because the FA teams of TSP and TNP should've known not to touch these topics— TNP has very passionate views on fascism, while TSP has very passionate views on regional sovereignty, and both will go to ridiculous lengths to defend their position. It's like they were trying to start a bitter, fruitless fight.

Edit: I'm very proud of TRR for staying out.

Posted: **Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:17 am**

Bormiar wrote:snip

It's possible this is wholly about "finally taking a stand" on a defending issue, it's possible this is strictly reactionary to one line in TNP's report, it's possible that this got more gears moving than any other quorum raid because some crusty old defenders had their dead regions hit, but it's also possible that TSP is seizing an oppurtunity and excuse to push TNP away as it forms a defender WA pact in partial opposition to WALL. Or more than one of the above

Posted: **Wed Jan 27, 2021 10:27 am**

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
Bormiar wrote:snip

It's possible this is wholly about "finally taking a stand" on a defending issue, it's possible this is strictly reactionary to one line in TNP's report, it's possible that this got more gears moving than any other quorum raid because some crusty old defenders had their dead regions hit, but it's also possible that TSP is seizing an oppurtunity and excuse to push TNP away as it forms a defender WA pact in partial opposition to WALL. Or more than one of the above

1-3 are very plausible, and exactly the dumb stuff I'm talking about.

The "defender pact / pushing TNP away" idea doesn't really fit the public (i.e. citizen only) and private reasoning for the bloc that I've seen, nor does it match the history of how the bloc was created. Then again, I've mostly only seen it from the perspective of TRR and 10KI, so idk. Makes for good raider propaganda I guess.

Posted: **Wed Jan 27, 2021 11:08 am**

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
Bormiar wrote:snip

It's possible this is wholly about "finally taking a stand" on a defending issue, it's possible this is strictly reactionary to one line in TNP's report, it's possible that this got more gears moving than any other quorum raid because some crusty old defenders had their dead regions hit, but it's also possible that TSP is seizing an oppurtunity and excuse to push TNP away as it forms a defender WA pact in partial opposition to WALL. Or more than one of the above

All wrong.

Posted: **Wed Jan 27, 2021 3:19 pm**

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:
CoraSpia wrote:They were contacted...after they'd started quarum raiding. In what world is that going to convince them to side with TNP's cause?

This is a lie. We started our telegram campaign well before quorum raiding began.

pics or it didn't happen.

Posted: **Thu Jan 28, 2021 6:51 pm**

PRESS RELEASE

RESPONSE TO THE NORTH PACIFIC ON QUORUM RAIDING

28 JANUARY 2021

Fellow South Pacificans and friends abroad,

The Cabinet of the South Pacific is disappointed that this matter, which could have been resolved with a simple clarification or retraction of The North Pacific’s statement, has not reached a mutually satisfying resolution. We do not agree with The North Pacific’s characterization of the diplomatic meetings between our Ministers of Foreign Affairs. While we were seeking specific redress for one bombastic label being applied to our region, The North Pacific appeared to have a different agenda and wanted to iron out big picture items like the legitimacy of their “antifa quorum raids.” When we wanted to stay on topic with our actual complaint, this seems to have been perceived as an unwillingness to hold a dialog.

In any case, public diplomacy is not the proper venue for this. The Cabinet released its earlier statement out of necessity, as we were canceling an expected festival due to The North Pacific’s refusal to clarify or retract their disparaging remarks and needed to explain why to the community. We do not wish to continue in this pattern of tit-for-tat public statements. As always, the Minister of Foreign Affairs has an open office for all foreign regions. However, it is impossible at this time to conduct a productive discussion on the broader issues of quorum raiding when The North Pacific continues to propagate a false characterization of our region and government, particularly our values-based approach to protecting innocent communities. We also recently ratified the multilateral Partnership for Sovereignty alliance, which has an interest in addressing the rise of quorum raiding in the broader community.

We have laid out what we believe are workable and reasonable guidelines for engaging in antifa-motivated quorum raids. At this time, we stand by those suggested guidelines and believe they are the best chance at compromise on this issue. I have remained encouraged by the uplifting messages received from allies and friends of the Coalition, and I would like to thank them for their support. We wish The North Pacific well in their future endeavors as we have historically found them to be a respectful and constructive friend of the people of The South Pacific.

Faithfully yours,
Omega
Minister of Foreign Affairs

Posted: **Thu Jan 28, 2021 7:22 pm**

cute!

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