NATION

PASSWORD

Embassy of the South Pacific

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
Not a roleplaying forum.

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
Consular
Minister
 
Posts: 3019
Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Consular » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:07 pm

Guy wrote:“Taking the game too far” uses to be almost all that NS admins banned for. If someone is constantly personally rude in their in-game political activities, they’d receive admin warnings and eventually a ban. Community standards are something that admins are generally better-placed to respond to than a fairy-tale court or someone elected on the basis of in-game expediency. This is the line where “IC” and “OOC” is rather blurred, and the fact that you had not even acknowledged that section of the response suggests that you know it is so.

Admins banning people for those reasons will not destroy confidence in them when they deal with serious misconduct. The admin team can remain objective and perform its functions in a way that retains the confidence of the community even if it warns someone for saying “you’re a fucking idiot” and even issuing bans if it rises to the level of repeated conduct that could constitute bullying.

Alright -- but that still leaves us with TSP demonstrating terribly unprofessional and confused admin conduct.

1. There was no clear escalation of warnings, just a ban. That's not really the right way to do things. The only evidence of warning was G-R making a confused and frankly ridiculous suggestion that an IC motion of no confidence should have been considered a warning??

2. TSP's admins have been accused themselves of the same conduct that resulted in the bans. The admin team was also directly involved in political opposition to those they banned, which places them in a pretty questionable position here.

3. TSP's statements concerning the ban have been a total mess of different justifications and backtracking.

User avatar
Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7272
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:22 pm

Consular wrote:
Guy wrote:“Taking the game too far” uses to be almost all that NS admins banned for. If someone is constantly personally rude in their in-game political activities, they’d receive admin warnings and eventually a ban. Community standards are something that admins are generally better-placed to respond to than a fairy-tale court or someone elected on the basis of in-game expediency. This is the line where “IC” and “OOC” is rather blurred, and the fact that you had not even acknowledged that section of the response suggests that you know it is so.

Admins banning people for those reasons will not destroy confidence in them when they deal with serious misconduct. The admin team can remain objective and perform its functions in a way that retains the confidence of the community even if it warns someone for saying “you’re a fucking idiot” and even issuing bans if it rises to the level of repeated conduct that could constitute bullying.

Alright -- but that still leaves us with TSP demonstrating terribly unprofessional and confused admin conduct.

1. There was no clear escalation of warnings, just a ban. That's not really the right way to do things. The only evidence of warning was G-R making a confused and frankly ridiculous suggestion that an IC motion of no confidence should have been considered a warning??

2. TSP's admins have been accused themselves of the same conduct that resulted in the bans. The admin team was also directly involved in political opposition to those they banned, which places them in a pretty questionable position here.

3. TSP's statements concerning the ban have been a total mess of different justifications and backtracking.


2 - “accused” is underplaying it a bit. I’d call it a fact, as described by TSP itself. Two of them were admittedly given the same exact recent warning/timeout/temp ban as Tim and Escade were, shortly before administratively banning Tim and Escade....and then citing that as one of the only actual warnings Tim and Escade are given. The accusations are that they ignored/violated the terms of that warning and have a long pattern of the same behavior they’ve mentioned whenever they’ve given any (sparse) detail, but it’s a TSP-supported *fact* that they’ve participated in at least some of the same conduct and received the same prior official warning




I’m tired so tldr good statement euro crew.
Last edited by Ever-Wandering Souls on Sat Sep 22, 2018 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

User avatar
The Church of Satan
Minister
 
Posts: 2193
Founded: Apr 15, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby The Church of Satan » Sat Sep 22, 2018 11:22 pm

Yes it's difficult to trust that TSP's admin team is being professional. Especially when their actions as admins are hypocritical at best and appalling at the worst.
The Rejected Realms: Former Delegate | Former Vice Delegate | Longest Consecutively Serving Officer in TRR History - 824 Days
Free the WA gnomes!

Chanku: This isn't an election it's an assault on the eyes. | Ikania: Hear! The Gospel of... Satan. Erh...
Yuno: Not gonna yell, but CoS is one of the best delegates ever | Ever-Wandering Souls: In the liberal justice system, raiding-based offenses are considered especially heinous. In The South Pacific, the dedicated defenders who investigate these vicious felonies are members of an elite squad known as the Council on Regional Security. These are their proscriptions. DUN DUN.

User avatar
Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7272
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Sat Sep 29, 2018 11:46 am

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:Seperate from the ongoing issues with the administrative team, I’ve got some questions for the cabinet.

It has been a full week since your court ruled in my favor and stuck down my proscription, with an opinion supporting my team’s absolute shredding of the cabinet’s positions, including outright noting that blatant falsehoods in the posted claims made the cabinet’s assertions hard to trust.

Still, at present, all announcements of the proscription stand without amendment.

When will the cabinet be indicating in its formal announcements here and on the TSP offsite that the portion of the proscription released aimed at me has been stuck down? Perhaps with a nice strikethrough and note on why it is struck? When will the cabinet acknowledge in the locations that the defamatory claims including those of blackmail are *still actively posted* that those claims are false and defamatory? When will the cabinet be making an equally formal announcement making clear that it made false accusations against me, apologizing for such, and noting acceptance that those claims have been disproven, to begin to counter the effects of its defamatory statements against me in public standing for almost two months?

I hope the answer is “very soon.”


Any reply to this?
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

User avatar
Pencil Sharpeners 2
Diplomat
 
Posts: 601
Founded: Aug 21, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby Pencil Sharpeners 2 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:08 pm

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:Seperate from the ongoing issues with the administrative team, I’ve got some questions for the cabinet.

It has been a full week since your court ruled in my favor and stuck down my proscription, with an opinion supporting my team’s absolute shredding of the cabinet’s positions, including outright noting that blatant falsehoods in the posted claims made the cabinet’s assertions hard to trust.

Still, at present, all announcements of the proscription stand without amendment.

When will the cabinet be indicating in its formal announcements here and on the TSP offsite that the portion of the proscription released aimed at me has been stuck down? Perhaps with a nice strikethrough and note on why it is struck? When will the cabinet acknowledge in the locations that the defamatory claims including those of blackmail are *still actively posted* that those claims are false and defamatory? When will the cabinet be making an equally formal announcement making clear that it made false accusations against me, apologizing for such, and noting acceptance that those claims have been disproven, to begin to counter the effects of its defamatory statements against me in public standing for almost two months?

I hope the answer is “very soon.”


Any reply to this?

Cabinet elections are in a few days, so I suspect not...
I used to do stuff in TSP
Highest ranked solo player in N-Day 2, finishing 10th
Currently the holder of 7 World #1 badges

User avatar
Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7272
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:11 pm

Pencil Sharpeners 2 wrote:
Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
Any reply to this?

Cabinet elections are in a few days, so I suspect not...


Does that somehow render the potentially outgoing cabinet incapable of addressing this both at present and for the past ten days? How?

Are you saying it's typical of TSP's cabinet to stop handling business weeks prior to an election, merely because an election is upcoming?
Last edited by Ever-Wandering Souls on Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks, Ret.
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

User avatar
Drop Your Pants
Senator
 
Posts: 3860
Founded: Apr 17, 2005
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Drop Your Pants » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:39 pm

For the love of CG's Coffee could someone change the topic title to something more relevant. Free Popcorn would be better.
Happily oblivious to NS Drama and I rarely pay attention beyond 5 minutes

User avatar
Lord Dominator
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8900
Founded: Dec 22, 2016
Right-wing Utopia

Postby Lord Dominator » Sat Sep 29, 2018 12:40 pm

Drop Your Pants wrote:For the love of CG's Coffee could someone change the topic title to something more relevant. Free Popcorn would be better.

Half of the government section of the OP is also outdated

User avatar
Pencil Sharpeners 2
Diplomat
 
Posts: 601
Founded: Aug 21, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby Pencil Sharpeners 2 » Sat Sep 29, 2018 1:28 pm

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:
Pencil Sharpeners 2 wrote:Cabinet elections are in a few days, so I suspect not...


Does that somehow render the potentially outgoing cabinet incapable of addressing this both at present and for the past ten days? How?

Are you saying it's typical of TSP's cabinet to stop handling business weeks prior to an election, merely because an election is upcoming?

My logic is that if the Cabinet hasn't responded to this already, they probably won't between now and the end of term. Of course, I'm not part of the Cabinet, so for all I know they've been drafting a response and will release it soon. This wasn't supposed to be any sort of official statement.
Drop Your Pants wrote:For the love of CG's Coffee could someone change the topic title to something more relevant. Free Popcorn would be better.

Lord Dominator wrote:Half of the government section of the OP is also outdated

Hmm, so it is. I'll ping our MoFA.
I used to do stuff in TSP
Highest ranked solo player in N-Day 2, finishing 10th
Currently the holder of 7 World #1 badges

User avatar
Tim-Opolis
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6197
Founded: Feb 17, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Tim-Opolis » Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:50 pm

Drop Your Pants wrote:For the love of CG's Coffee could someone change the topic title to something more relevant. Free Popcorn would be better.

They appear to have misplaced the nation, given that PS2 asked me if I knew anything about who had it.

I treated his inquiry with about as much care as the TSP Administrative Team has shown for having any integrity.
Want to be a hero? Join The Grey Wardens - Help Us Save Nationstates
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Commended by Security Council Resolution #420 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Author of SC#74, SC #203, SC #222, and SC #238 | Co-Author of SC#191
Founder of Spiritus | Three-Time Delegate of Osiris | Pharaoh of the Islamic Republics of Iran | Hero of Greece
<Koth - 06/30/2020> I mean as far as GPers go, Tim is one of the most iconic

User avatar
Pencil Sharpeners 2
Diplomat
 
Posts: 601
Founded: Aug 21, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby Pencil Sharpeners 2 » Sun Sep 30, 2018 3:02 pm

Tim-Opolis wrote:
Drop Your Pants wrote:For the love of CG's Coffee could someone change the topic title to something more relevant. Free Popcorn would be better.

They appear to have misplaced the nation, given that PS2 asked me if I knew anything about who had it.

I treated his inquiry with about as much care as the TSP Administrative Team has shown for having any integrity.

It turns out we had the password all along, but Serres just hadn't looked hard enough for it... Anyway, he has control of the nation now, but I guess he was too busy to update the OP. I'll ping him again in a few days if he still hasn't changed it.
I used to do stuff in TSP
Highest ranked solo player in N-Day 2, finishing 10th
Currently the holder of 7 World #1 badges

User avatar
Consular
Minister
 
Posts: 3019
Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Consular » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:33 pm

Tim-Opolis wrote:
Drop Your Pants wrote:For the love of CG's Coffee could someone change the topic title to something more relevant. Free Popcorn would be better.

They appear to have misplaced the nation, given that PS2 asked me if I knew anything about who had it.

I treated his inquiry with about as much care as the TSP Administrative Team has shown for having any integrity.

The fact that they asked you of all people is kinda hilarious

User avatar
Tim-Opolis
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6197
Founded: Feb 17, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Tim-Opolis » Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:46 pm

Consular wrote:
Tim-Opolis wrote:They appear to have misplaced the nation, given that PS2 asked me if I knew anything about who had it.

I treated his inquiry with about as much care as the TSP Administrative Team has shown for having any integrity.

The fact that they asked you of all people is kinda hilarious

Fucking riot, yeah.

I told them I'd be happy to chat them up as soon as their Admin Team was happy to provide some answers. He straight up told me they would not be providing any.

Image

Pencil Sharpeners 2 wrote:but I guess he was too busy


That does seem to be the case with pretty much every relevant government position in tsp, yeah.
Last edited by Tim-Opolis on Sun Sep 30, 2018 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Want to be a hero? Join The Grey Wardens - Help Us Save Nationstates
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Commended by Security Council Resolution #420 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Author of SC#74, SC #203, SC #222, and SC #238 | Co-Author of SC#191
Founder of Spiritus | Three-Time Delegate of Osiris | Pharaoh of the Islamic Republics of Iran | Hero of Greece
<Koth - 06/30/2020> I mean as far as GPers go, Tim is one of the most iconic

User avatar
Pencil Sharpeners 2
Diplomat
 
Posts: 601
Founded: Aug 21, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby Pencil Sharpeners 2 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 5:56 am

Consular wrote:
Tim-Opolis wrote:They appear to have misplaced the nation, given that PS2 asked me if I knew anything about who had it.

I treated his inquiry with about as much care as the TSP Administrative Team has shown for having any integrity.

The fact that they asked you of all people is kinda hilarious

Serres said he'd never received the password, and that Res had also never received the password, so it seemed logical to ask Tim. But as I mentioned, the password was found by other means.
I used to do stuff in TSP
Highest ranked solo player in N-Day 2, finishing 10th
Currently the holder of 7 World #1 badges

User avatar
Consular
Minister
 
Posts: 3019
Founded: Apr 10, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Consular » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:05 am

Pencil Sharpeners 2 wrote:
Consular wrote:The fact that they asked you of all people is kinda hilarious

Serres said he'd never received the password, and that Res had also never received the password, so it seemed logical to ask Tim. But as I mentioned, the password was found by other means.

It seemed logical to ask someone who has been banned? Haha

User avatar
Pencil Sharpeners 2
Diplomat
 
Posts: 601
Founded: Aug 21, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby Pencil Sharpeners 2 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:08 am

Consular wrote:
Pencil Sharpeners 2 wrote:Serres said he'd never received the password, and that Res had also never received the password, so it seemed logical to ask Tim. But as I mentioned, the password was found by other means.

It seemed logical to ask someone who has been banned? Haha

At the time we (by which I mean myself and Serres) thought that Tim was the only person to have the password. So I thought I might as well ask.
Last edited by Pencil Sharpeners 2 on Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
I used to do stuff in TSP
Highest ranked solo player in N-Day 2, finishing 10th
Currently the holder of 7 World #1 badges

User avatar
RiderSyl
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6309
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:43 am

Pencil Sharpeners 2 wrote:
Consular wrote:It seemed logical to ask someone who has been banned? Haha

At the time we (by which I mean myself and Serres) thought that Tim was the only person to have the password. So I thought I might as well ask.

It can be logical and funny at the same time. And it is. :p
R.I.P. Dyakovo
Sylvia Montresor

Ashmoria
Karpathos
~ You may think I’m small, but I have a universe inside my mind. ~

User avatar
Tim-Opolis
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6197
Founded: Feb 17, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Tim-Opolis » Mon Oct 01, 2018 7:49 am

Pencil Sharpeners 2 wrote:
Consular wrote:The fact that they asked you of all people is kinda hilarious

Serres said he'd never received the password, and that Res had also never received the password, so it seemed logical to ask Tim. But as I mentioned, the password was found by other means.

That's fucking hilarious, given that I sent the password to Resentine basically as soon as he got elected.

I don't know what your "other means" were, but it was obviously most recently under the ownership of one of them, since you wouldn't have legally been able to take over the nation had I still controlled it.

Oh, and look, unlike most tspers, I can actually show evidence too:

Image
Want to be a hero? Join The Grey Wardens - Help Us Save Nationstates
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Commended by Security Council Resolution #420 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Author of SC#74, SC #203, SC #222, and SC #238 | Co-Author of SC#191
Founder of Spiritus | Three-Time Delegate of Osiris | Pharaoh of the Islamic Republics of Iran | Hero of Greece
<Koth - 06/30/2020> I mean as far as GPers go, Tim is one of the most iconic

User avatar
Pencil Sharpeners 2
Diplomat
 
Posts: 601
Founded: Aug 21, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby Pencil Sharpeners 2 » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:00 am

Tim-Opolis wrote:
Pencil Sharpeners 2 wrote:Serres said he'd never received the password, and that Res had also never received the password, so it seemed logical to ask Tim. But as I mentioned, the password was found by other means.

That's fucking hilarious, given that I sent the password to Resentine basically as soon as he got elected.

I don't know what your "other means" were, but it was obviously most recently under the ownership of one of them, since you wouldn't have legally been able to take over the nation had I still controlled it.

Oh, and look, unlike most tspers, I can actually show evidence too:

-snip-

Yeah, as I mentioned earlier, Serres just hadn't looked hard enough. I think he was working on the assumption that you still controlled the nation, but whatever, he's in now.
I used to do stuff in TSP
Highest ranked solo player in N-Day 2, finishing 10th
Currently the holder of 7 World #1 badges

User avatar
Tim-Opolis
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6197
Founded: Feb 17, 2010
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Tim-Opolis » Mon Oct 01, 2018 8:02 am

Pencil Sharpeners 2 wrote:Yeah, as I mentioned earlier, Serres just hadn't looked hard enough.

Tragic.
Want to be a hero? Join The Grey Wardens - Help Us Save Nationstates
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Commended by Security Council Resolution #420 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Author of SC#74, SC #203, SC #222, and SC #238 | Co-Author of SC#191
Founder of Spiritus | Three-Time Delegate of Osiris | Pharaoh of the Islamic Republics of Iran | Hero of Greece
<Koth - 06/30/2020> I mean as far as GPers go, Tim is one of the most iconic

User avatar
Syberis
Diplomat
 
Posts: 690
Founded: Jan 21, 2016
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Syberis » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:21 pm

Pencil Sharpeners 2 wrote:
Consular wrote:It seemed logical to ask someone who has been banned? Haha

At the time we (by which I mean myself and Serres) thought that Tim was the only person to have the password. So I thought I might as well ask.


I shouldn't be the one having to tell you that if Tim was the only one who had the password he would have laughed you out of the room and he'd be shitposting literally everywhere about it.

But apparently I have to tell you.
Last edited by Syberis on Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I've finally found what I was looking for
A place where I can be without remorse
Because I am a stranger who has found
An even stranger war

Zaolat wrote:WHO THE F*** IS SYBERIS

User avatar
Pencil Sharpeners 2
Diplomat
 
Posts: 601
Founded: Aug 21, 2015
Father Knows Best State

Postby Pencil Sharpeners 2 » Tue Oct 02, 2018 1:51 pm

Syberis wrote:
Pencil Sharpeners 2 wrote:At the time we (by which I mean myself and Serres) thought that Tim was the only person to have the password. So I thought I might as well ask.


I shouldn't be the one having to tell you that if Tim was the only one who had the password he would have laughed you out of the room and he'd be shitposting literally everywhere about it.

But apparently I have to tell you.

*Shrugs*

I wasn't expecting to be successful, but I thought I might as well give it a go. I didn't care if he ended up shitposting about me, it was better than the other option of never asking him and then waiting for the nation to CTE.
I used to do stuff in TSP
Highest ranked solo player in N-Day 2, finishing 10th
Currently the holder of 7 World #1 badges

User avatar
Queen Yuno
Diplomat
 
Posts: 918
Founded: Dec 30, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Queen Yuno » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:46 pm

Does it matter?

Image
Stop giving misogynistic abusers a platform. Anyone who sides with Tiktok Star Andrew Tate even 1% of what he says will be treated as enemy who should be shamed out of society. Impressions+Views+Videowatches=$. Nothing he says is new or revolutionary. I don't care if he said "some good stuff", it's still bad because: the more you watch him, the more ad revenue MONEY and algorithm BOOSTS you're giving him to traffick victims. And don't say the victim lied, a young man stupidly told me that the victim confessed to lying, I told em to link me proof, articles or the Audio of her confession, he googled and found 0 proof 0 articles, and he realized he was spreading fake rumors he heard and BELIEVED without fact-check. Don't brand victims as liars without GOOGLING. Debated here

User avatar
RiderSyl
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6309
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Tue Oct 02, 2018 2:50 pm

Yes.
R.I.P. Dyakovo
Sylvia Montresor

Ashmoria
Karpathos
~ You may think I’m small, but I have a universe inside my mind. ~

User avatar
Aclion
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6249
Founded: Apr 12, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Aclion » Tue Oct 02, 2018 5:05 pm

Why?
A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. - James Madison.

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to Gameplay

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Klaus Devestatorie, Volstrostia

Advertisement

Remove ads