Embassy of the South Pacific

[Glen-Rhodes]

Wait, Glen. You believe that the IC/OOC divide in Gameplay is bullshit?

No, but I do believe you still ought to be punished for misconduct, even if it’s about “IC” fights over elections, recalls, lawmaking, etc. Which is how I’ve understood NS’s rules for about the past 10 years. I’ve been told quite a few times now that if somebody is flaming somebody else for months, and it started because of “politics,” that it’s ok and not actionable. I think that’s what’s really fucked up, but I guess I’m not a reasonable person.

There’s a difference between heated argument and what then becomes excessive flaming and baiting. TSP certainly has had problems in the past moderating. Many people, including myself, have gone overboard in the past 5+ years. We’ve decided, after getting a lot of official complaints (that you all keep dismissing, by the way), that something needed to change. And no, we were not and are not going to ban anybody for responding to Escade’s and Tim’s behavior during those months. I realize many of you don’t like that.

[Devi Vytherin]

And no, we were not and are not going to ban anybody for responding to Escade’s and Tim’s behavior during those months. I realize many of you don’t like that.

TIL 'But he started it' is a valid argument to make when justifying administrative decisions.

[Consular]

Wait, Glen. You believe that the IC/OOC divide in Gameplay is bullshit?

No, but I do believe you still ought to be punished for misconduct, even if it’s about “IC” fights over elections, recalls, lawmaking, etc. Which is how I’ve understood NS’s rules for about the past 10 years. I’ve been told quite a few times now that if somebody is flaming somebody else for months, and it started because of “politics,” that it’s ok and not actionable. I think that’s what’s really fucked up, but I guess I’m not a reasonable person.

There’s a difference between heated argument and what then becomes excessive flaming and baiting. TSP certainly has had problems in the past moderating. Many people, including myself, have gone overboard in the past 5+ years. We’ve decided, after getting a lot of official complaints (that you all keep dismissing, by the way), that something needed to change. And no, we were not and are not going to ban anybody for responding to Escade’s and Tim’s behavior during those months. I realize many of you don’t like that.

Sure but that still doesn't explain the very bad process you've apparently followed -- what with the no warnings or clearly laid out punishment escalation, the refusing to provide evidence, the inconsistent communication with the accused, the absolute mess of accusations that was the announcement, the confused responses we've been getting that shift between defensiveness and various backtracking... etc

[Syberis]

No, but I do believe you still ought to be punished for misconduct, even if it’s about “IC” fights over elections, recalls, lawmaking, etc. Which is how I’ve understood NS’s rules for about the past 10 years. I’ve been told quite a few times now that if somebody is flaming somebody else for months, and it started because of “politics,” that it’s ok and not actionable. I think that’s what’s really fucked up, but I guess I’m not a reasonable person.

There’s a difference between heated argument and what then becomes excessive flaming and baiting. TSP certainly has had problems in the past moderating. Many people, including myself, have gone overboard in the past 5+ years. We’ve decided, after getting a lot of official complaints (that you all keep dismissing, by the way), that something needed to change. And no, we were not and are not going to ban anybody for responding to Escade’s and Tim’s behavior during those months. I realize many of you don’t like that.

Sure but that still doesn't explain the very bad process you've apparently followed -- what with the no warnings or clearly laid out punishment escalation, the refusing to provide evidence, the inconsistent communication with the accused, the absolute mess of accusations that was the announcement, the confused responses we've been getting that shift between defensiveness and various backtracking... etc

Also, Glen you're a fucking offsite administrator. Not a NationStates Moderator. Your job should be to protect the TSP community from OOC threats and legitimate predators. Not to interfere with political arguments and troublesome and dangerous IC threats; there's a totally separate set of laws and procedures within TSP for that. Laws which were, I assume, ignored for a speedy "admin" resolution.

Admins need to stay in their fucking lane, everywhere, for the safety of the game as a whole. What happens next? TSP bans someone for being an OOC threat to the well-being of the players, and there's going to be a fog of distrust and discontent that could potentially result in people not responding properly to the allegations. What you guys did here is dangerous.

Why would anyone trust that you have real, OOC justifications for any action taken to protect your community from predators anymore?

[Belschaft]

Can I just say how awesome it is that all the people who were ranting and raving about the unfair treatment of Souls, and insisting that he could never get a fair hearing in TSP's Court, are suspiciously silent now the Court has ruled in his favour?

It's almost like they were only using the matter as a stick to beat TSP with....

[Syberis]

Can I just say how awesome it is that all the people who were ranting and raving about the unfair treatment of Souls, and insisting that he could never get a fair hearing in TSP's Court, are suspiciously silent now the Court has ruled in his favour?

It's almost like they were only using the matter as a stick to beat TSP with....

I'll be the first to admit I'm quietly surprised and TSP's court deserves credit for their ruling. I do hope TSP's government fixes the problematic laws that made this kind of situation possible.

No flame, no snark. Just "Good job, and I hope you change your law to secure the region better in the future."

Same as I would if admin openly changes their rules and shows improvement. I give TSP a lot of shit, but I'm willing to give credit where it's due.

[Armaros]

Can I just say how awesome it is that all the people who were ranting and raving about the unfair treatment of Souls, and insisting that he could never get a fair hearing in TSP's Court, are suspiciously silent now the Court has ruled in his favour?

It's almost like they were only using the matter as a stick to beat TSP with....

That's incredibly cheap to say. TSP's court ruled in his favour, but then TSP banned people on OOC grounds while refusing to show evidence. But people totally weren't legitimately concerned about Souls' unfair treatment, nope, they were totally just trying to attack TSP, and that is proven because they don't talk about it anymore and instead raise more concerns about even worse things. That's totally because they just want to attack TSP. They are legitimately concerned? Ridiculous!

[Consular]

Can I just say how awesome it is that all the people who were ranting and raving about the unfair treatment of Souls, and insisting that he could never get a fair hearing in TSP's Court, are suspiciously silent now the Court has ruled in his favour?

It's almost like they were only using the matter as a stick to beat TSP with....

Uh, no. Most of us are "ranting" about Tim and Escade, which is a whole different charade.

Also, most of us don't exactly monitor TSP's forum at all hours of the day. Maybe we didn't know yet? Nah, that would mean your dig here is dumb, so that can't be it.

[Queen Yuno]

Can I just say how awesome it is that all the people who were ranting and raving about the unfair treatment of Souls, and insisting that he could never get a fair hearing in TSP's Court, are suspiciously silent now the Court has ruled in his favour?

It's almost like they were only using the matter as a stick to beat TSP with....

[12:29 AM] Yun: Wait
[12:29 AM] Yun: @Souls Your ban got overturned?
I must have overslept the entire thing
Congrats
[12:40 AM] Souls: For now at least Thanks.
[12:44 AM] Yun: OOMG YOU' GOT UNBANNED WHAT
[12:46 AM] Yun: I don't really know the details but it was a fortunate outcome for you!
I guess the jury ruled in your favor!
[12:47 AM] Souls: No jury.

That was my reaction upon finding out, (in TSP chat so)
I'd say there was some reaction, just on discord xD
I'll leave a reaction on the forum though:

______

Gotta say, Congrats on Souls for being unbanned from TSP!

Thank you (@Belschaft + @Kringle) for the court ruling and rendering a fair and just decision on this! Long live fair justice! ^_^


*gotta go*

[Reploid Productions]

(Image)

Knock it off with the oversized meme spam.

[Aclion]

Can I just say how awesome it is that all the people who were ranting and raving about the unfair treatment of Souls, and insisting that he could never get a fair hearing in TSP's Court, are suspiciously silent now the Court has ruled in his favour?

It's almost like they were only using the matter as a stick to beat TSP with....

Apples and Oranges. The accusations against Souls were accusations of gameplay activity harmful to the South Pacific's government. This is not comparable to an accusation of OOC abuse harmful to the South Pacific's members.

[Tim-Opolis]

Can I just say how awesome it is that all the people who were ranting and raving about the unfair treatment of Souls, and insisting that he could never get a fair hearing in TSP's Court, are suspiciously silent now the Court has ruled in his favour?

It's almost like they were only using the matter as a stick to beat TSP with....

It's pretty clear that the Souls case has not been the main topic of this thread and the unrest in it, though do applaud the attempt to steer conversation more towards that and away from the gross misconduct committed by your joke of an administrative team.

And no, we were not and are not going to ban anybody for responding to Escade’s and Tim’s behavior during those months. I realize many of you don’t like that.

TIL 'But he started it' is a valid argument to make when justifying administrative decisions.

Only when it's convenient for them, considering it was Glen and Roavin who ultimately started this affair, especially in regards to crossing into OOC lines (that one specifically @ Glen).

Of course, when one considers that Glen is playing the victim despite being the catalyst of the vast majority of actual toxicity that occurred, the whole affair seems to go quiet.

Personally, I really want to know what false accusations of OOC Misconduct I allegedly made against Glen, because he filed an Admin report for it, apparently ruled on that same report, and argued that I was just playing dumb when I asked what I said so I could retract it. If anyone finds out, do let me know.

[Land Without Shrimp]

I imagine there wasn't an elaborate explainer on the decision originally because it was obvious to TSPers what the admins were discussing - people were leaving TSP over Tim/Escade's behaviour. It's been an ongoing point of contention for months now. Everyone has just been waiting for the hammer to come down. Which is why it's been NS Gameplay that has reacted incredulously to the decision, not TSP.

I keep telling myself, "Don't post in Gameplay, don't post in Gameplay. You'll regret it." And I most certainly will, I'm sure. But because I'm apparently a glutton for punishment, been following this thread for past few weeks. And quoting the above merely to agree with it. I'm your average non-political TSPer, right? I don't care for the backstage, don't do drama, etc. I don't know the history and bs from the past 10 years or whatnot, like most people posting on this thread. I've been here for less than three years! Honestly, I'm only posting here because TSP *is* my region and my home on NS and I care about it. And while I can't testify to the character and behaviour of the people on both sides of this debate, I can testify that the above is true - I have a close personal friend(who joined NS because of me!) that suffered from the above - hence leave of absence. I know there's a lot of drama and history here in NS and I'm not a part of that. But I do know that a good friend of mine suffered from certain people's behaviour and so yes, I supported Tsu's action. Am I sad it came to this? Absolutely? Am I saying that everyone on the other side is perfect? Absolutely not. But in terms of action Tsu took, in my opinion as an average TSPer, it was necessary. Something had to be done.

[North Prarie]

Can I just say how awesome it is that all the people who were ranting and raving about the unfair treatment of Souls, and insisting that he could never get a fair hearing in TSP's Court, are suspiciously silent now the Court has ruled in his favour?

It's almost like they were only using the matter as a stick to beat TSP with....

That's incredibly cheap to say. TSP's court ruled in his favour, but then TSP banned people on OOC grounds while refusing to show evidence. But people totally weren't legitimately concerned about Souls' unfair treatment, nope, they were totally just trying to attack TSP, and that is proven because they don't talk about it anymore and instead raise more concerns about even worse things. That's totally because they just want to attack TSP. They are legitimately concerned? Ridiculous!

No, its's mostly that they just wanted to attack TSP :/

[Glen-Rhodes]

Also, Glen you're a fucking offsite administrator. Not a NationStates Moderator. Your job should be to protect the TSP community from OOC threats and legitimate predators. Not to interfere with political arguments and troublesome and dangerous IC threats; there's a totally separate set of laws and procedures within TSP for that. Laws which were, I assume, ignored for a speedy "admin" resolution.

Admins need to stay in their fucking lane, everywhere, for the safety of the game as a whole. What happens next? TSP bans someone for being an OOC threat to the well-being of the players, and there's going to be a fog of distrust and discontent that could potentially result in people not responding properly to the allegations. What you guys did here is dangerous.

Why would anyone trust that you have real, OOC justifications for any action taken to protect your community from predators anymore?

Honestly, this is just silly. I find it hard to believe that you really believe this. And if you do, and this is a common belief, then maybe it's why Gameplay has become such a mean-spirited and draining part of NationStates over the past couple years.

Flaming rules have existed on the internet for decades. Administrators of online communities have been enforcing those rules just as long. NationStates off-site forums aren't the first online communities of their kind on the internet, nor are they (or this forum) unique and require some special theory of moderation. Relegating the role of an administrator to only intervening for "legitimate predators" may be how 4chan and certain reddit cesspools operate, but literally the rest of the internet has operated under a pretty standard paradigm of community management and moderation that includes upholding universally-understood rules on flaming, baiting, and trolling. If you want to run your own community in a hands-off manner, that's fine for you (though I seriously doubt you do-- plenty of people have been banned from GCR forums over the years for just being assholes, "IC" or "OOC"). But TSP doesn't have to follow such an idiosyncratic philosophy of online community moderation, and neither does any other off-site community. In fact, TSPers have been asking for the exact opposite for a long time now, and have considered Gameplay to be an unwelcoming void because of how it encourages poor behavior by classifying it as "in-character" and thus subject to no rules. (Or, even just as common, "they were just drunk.")

If TSP bans a creep for predatory behavior, sends over evidence to you, and you choose not to act... that's on you. In this scenario, we took the appropriate action to ban the creep. You chose not to protect your own community, because TSP once banned 2 players for 8 months for prolonged flame-baiting problems, and you decided that was so egregious that a mountain of evidence on a predatory creep just isn't believable after that. I won't be responsible for that choice you make. TSP administrators have been mature and responsible enough to take those cases seriously every time, no matter our feelings on the region it comes from or who their admins are. Because that's how you responsibly administrate an online forum. But you do you, Syb.

[Kurnugia]

That's incredibly cheap to say. TSP's court ruled in his favour, but then TSP banned people on OOC grounds while refusing to show evidence. But people totally weren't legitimately concerned about Souls' unfair treatment, nope, they were totally just trying to attack TSP, and that is proven because they don't talk about it anymore and instead raise more concerns about even worse things. That's totally because they just want to attack TSP. They are legitimately concerned? Ridiculous!

No, its's mostly that they just wanted to attack TSP :/

Shrugs

Then please explain what I am doing here. I was quite fond of TSP until I saw the trash fire that is happening here. But hey keep saying it and you might just believe that NSGP is only full of big bad wolves

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Can I just say how awesome it is that all the people who were ranting and raving about the unfair treatment of Souls, and insisting that he could never get a fair hearing in TSP's Court, are suspiciously silent now the Court has ruled in his favour?

It's almost like they were only using the matter as a stick to beat TSP with....

You know, a lot of folks out there called several days ahead of the ruling that y'all would rule in my favor just to be able to make this kind of post - that you'd rule with the mind that a ruling in my favor looks better than one against it, plus you get to make a smarmy attack on other fair criticism by doing so.

I've got no facts to judge how right they were about your intentions, but surely you should know that, as one of the justices who rules on the case, by making such a post you're fueling that assumption like crazy, and you should have let the ruling just stand for itself?

All that aside - this ruling is not a good thing for TSP. Letting it get to the level of a case was always lose-lose for the region. If anything, while the ruling provides some props for the Court, it makes everything else look even worse in comparison.

>Glen was 100% confident that this would be open and shut against me. Guess it was a good thing he was recused.
>There has been no apology issued about the litany of easily proven false claims, including the particularly offensive and damaging one of blackmail, that I had to spend a month and a half getting officiall shot down (not that there has been any recognition of such by the government - no strike through the proscription announcement, no comment noting the case, and certainly no announcement about the ruling)
>The case made clear that, one way or another, two Cabinets across several months managed to publish into law serious accusations without even the barest beginnings of fact-checking, in a move I would be hard-pressed to describe as anything less than utterly incompetent
>The Cabinet's representative, Roavin, has publicly stated that the proscription will be re-issued, while an active cabinet member has publicly denied that there is any such plan
>While the case was ongoing, members of the cabinet repeatedly expressed a total lack of knowledge concerning the case being arguing in their name over a matter they passed
>The Cabinet's representative was caught stating outright and easily disprovable falsehoods even during arguments in court
>Despite the fact that review of such went in my favor, I'd still say that it is less than "fair" that I was never even told some of the claims against me in the course of this case - namely, that Item E was basically "you conspired to coup and that's all we'll say period."

I'm sure I'm missing one or two things here, but you get the idea.

...And finally, as others have stated, while this case is still a fucking mess for TSP, it's a different ballpark entirely from the administrative issues running rampant, and it's resolution has no bearing on such issues.

No, its's mostly that they just wanted to attack TSP :/

Not just everyone here, but *more* than everyone here would be just as up in arms against any other team that so bold facedly issues bans with claims of harassment with no intent to show proof, especially when followed by the shitshow that has been GR trying to carve out his own niche where he gets to call Tim and Escade harassers but say it's *different* harassment where it's not actually that bad and not dangerous to anyone and he doesn't have to prove it but still gets to call it harassment.

Oh, and I'd also be as up in arms against any other team where most of them maintain a "friendship with Unibot," as Tsu put it. So there's that too.

[The Church of Satan]

No, its's mostly that they just wanted to attack TSP :/

Even though despite the fact that my region has been TSP's closest and most loyal ally for several years I am still appalled by their administrators blatant abuse of power? You might want to rethink that statement.

[Unibot III]

I imagine there wasn't an elaborate explainer on the decision originally because it was obvious to TSPers what the admins were discussing - people were leaving TSP over Tim/Escade's behaviour. It's been an ongoing point of contention for months now. Everyone has just been waiting for the hammer to come down. Which is why it's been NS Gameplay that has reacted incredulously to the decision, not TSP.

I keep telling myself, "Don't post in Gameplay, don't post in Gameplay. You'll regret it." And I most certainly will, I'm sure. But because I'm apparently a glutton for punishment, been following this thread for past few weeks. And quoting the above merely to agree with it. I'm your average non-political TSPer, right? I don't care for the backstage, don't do drama, etc. I don't know the history and bs from the past 10 years or whatnot, like most people posting on this thread. I've been here for less than three years! Honestly, I'm only posting here because TSP *is* my region and my home on NS and I care about it. And while I can't testify to the character and behaviour of the people on both sides of this debate, I can testify that the above is true - I have a close personal friend(who joined NS because of me!) that suffered from the above - hence leave of absence. I know there's a lot of drama and history here in NS and I'm not a part of that. But I do know that a good friend of mine suffered from certain people's behaviour and so yes, I supported Tsu's action. Am I sad it came to this? Absolutely? Am I saying that everyone on the other side is perfect? Absolutely not. But in terms of action Tsu took, in my opinion as an average TSPer, it was necessary. Something had to be done.

Well said. Exactly.

[Lord Dominator]

I imagine there wasn't an elaborate explainer on the decision originally because it was obvious to TSPers what the admins were discussing - people were leaving TSP over Tim/Escade's behaviour. It's been an ongoing point of contention for months now. Everyone has just been waiting for the hammer to come down. Which is why it's been NS Gameplay that has reacted incredulously to the decision, not TSP.

I keep telling myself, "Don't post in Gameplay, don't post in Gameplay. You'll regret it." And I most certainly will, I'm sure. But because I'm apparently a glutton for punishment, been following this thread for past few weeks. And quoting the above merely to agree with it. I'm your average non-political TSPer, right? I don't care for the backstage, don't do drama, etc. I don't know the history and bs from the past 10 years or whatnot, like most people posting on this thread. I've been here for less than three years! Honestly, I'm only posting here because TSP *is* my region and my home on NS and I care about it. And while I can't testify to the character and behaviour of the people on both sides of this debate, I can testify that the above is true - I have a close personal friend(who joined NS because of me!) that suffered from the above - hence leave of absence. I know there's a lot of drama and history here in NS and I'm not a part of that. But I do know that a good friend of mine suffered from certain people's behaviour and so yes, I supported Tsu's action. Am I sad it came to this? Absolutely? Am I saying that everyone on the other side is perfect? Absolutely not. But in terms of action Tsu took, in my opinion as an average TSPer, it was necessary. Something had to be done.

Okay, that's all good, it's just that for the most part none of us are saying that Tim & Escade are necessarily innocent or should have the ban lifted, but complaining about the poor admin choices in how that was carried out.

[Cormactopia Prime]

Flaming rules have existed on the internet for decades. Administrators of online communities have been enforcing those rules just as long. NationStates off-site forums aren't the first online communities of their kind on the internet, nor are they (or this forum) unique and require some special theory of moderation. Relegating the role of an administrator to only intervening for "legitimate predators" may be how 4chan and certain reddit cesspools operate, but literally the rest of the internet has operated under a pretty standard paradigm of community management and moderation that includes upholding universally-understood rules on flaming, baiting, and trolling. If you want to run your own community in a hands-off manner, that's fine for you (though I seriously doubt you do-- plenty of people have been banned from GCR forums over the years for just being assholes, "IC" or "OOC"). But TSP doesn't have to follow such an idiosyncratic philosophy of online community moderation, and neither does any other off-site community. In fact, TSPers have been asking for the exact opposite for a long time now, and have considered Gameplay to be an unwelcoming void because of how it encourages poor behavior by classifying it as "in-character" and thus subject to no rules. (Or, even just as common, "they were just drunk.")

But Glen, when do these rules apply to you? When I was there, it was you and your behavior people were complaining about. When I served as Chair and cracked down on your behavior, it was because Farengeto and Ryccia, among others, were encouraging me to do something about your in-character toxicity in the Assembly. And yet we know what happened there -- the warnings I issued against you were ignored by Tsunamy and never applied, and I was run out of TSP for daring to enforce any rules of conduct against you. And now here we are, with you claiming that TSP can and should enforce these rules. Fine and dandy, but when are they ever going to apply to you? This whole thing is a farce. Escade and Tim were banned because you don't like them.

[Midand]

Alright, how much further are we still gonna be fighting a war over this?

I place bets on a couple more months...

[Ever-Wandering Souls]

Alright, how much further are we still gonna be fighting a war over this?

I place bets on a couple more months...

Do you mean until TSP fixes things or until the community gives up? In order; pessimistically never, optimistically never.

[Jar Wattinree]

Alright, how much further are we still gonna be fighting a war over this?

I place bets on a couple more months...

No, no, no, give it until Thanksgiving.

[Midand]

Alright, how much further are we still gonna be fighting a war over this?

I place bets on a couple more months...

No, no, no, give it until Thanksgiving.

If some people are really that salty, I say middle of December to before Christmas Eve.